S
StCsDavid
Guest
Hitler was at best, the very least of our brothers. I wrote an essay regarding Saddam that could very easily be applied to Hitler. You can read it here.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
L
Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
Your questioning reply to my post is a bit of a red herring–since my post was about Goldhagens faulty and biased work.So Pius XII did denounce Hitler and the Nazis?
Was he excommunicated?
However to your first question–yes–as prior posters have demonstrated, as miuch as he could under the contraints he was under–and Jewish leaders and intellectuals of the time understood them and agreed with them. Pius XII was a trained diplomat, who passionatly wanted to be availible as a “neutral” broker in a possible peace settlement that could avoid further blood shed. The idea that Eugenio Pascelli would engage with political grandstanding is a hangup of our time.
In regards to your second question, Adolph Hitler was an excommunicate ipso facto by demonstrated behavior and statements that seperated him from the Sacraments. Already at that time, the ceremonial form of anathema was becoming a relic–and would have only been another cause of intensified persecution of both Catholics and Jews.
D
DaisyD
Guest
So publicly Pacelli remained neutral on the issue only to prevent more bloodshed. As a matter of fact in Oct 1941,Harold Titman, US delegate to the Vatican, asked the pontiff to condenm the atrocities, Pius replied that he would remain neutral. Interesting.Your questioning reply to my post is a bit of a red herring–since my post was about Goldhagens faulty and biased work.
However to your first question–yes–as prior posters have demonstrated, as miuch as he could under the contraints he was under–and Jewish leaders and intellectuals of the time understood them and agreed with them. Pius XII was a trained diplomat, who passionatly wanted to be availible as a “neutral” broker in a possible peace settlement that could avoid further blood shed. The idea that Eugenio Pascelli would engage with political grandstanding is a hangup of our time.
In regards to your second question, Adolph Hitler was an excommunicate ipso facto by demonstrated behavior and statements that seperated him from the Sacraments. Already at that time, the ceremonial form of anathema was becoming a relic–and would have only been another cause of intensified persecution of both Catholics and Jews.
In regards to the second question, Hitler was excommunicated in your own estimation or was it official?
L
Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
There are acts that automaticaly encur excommunication–and even a cursory biography of Hitler’s life will come up with a multitude of such acts–including having an incestuous affair with a niece (and driving her to suicide) let alone being a member and promoter of vicious anti-semitism, which had been condemned in the historic 1916 encyclical–which, btw, had Eugenio Pacelli, the future Pius XII as one of it’s greatest influncesSo publicly Pacelli remained neutral on the issue only to prevent more bloodshed. As a matter of fact in Oct 1941,Harold Titman, US delegate to the Vatican, asked the pontiff to condenm the atrocities, Pius replied that he would remain neutral. Interesting.
response: 12/1942, in his Christmass radio address, Pius XII condemned the “mass killings and attemted extermination of peoples” on the basis of religion and race–and everyone knew who he was talking about, especially the perpetrators. Per a 01/1943 Gestapo memorandum in response to the broadcast, “This pope condemns everthing we stand for” Prior to the actual war, the only Papal encyclical to be written in German was read from every German pulpit condemnin persecution of peoples on the basis of religion or race
In regards to the second question, Hitler was excommunicated in your own estimation or was it official?
C
chosen_people
Guest
Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.
In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.(5)
Within the Pope’s own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge d’affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being systematically deported and sent to death camps.(6)
In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain “neutral,” and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.(7)
In late August 1942, after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms and advising Septyckyj to “bear adversity with serene patience.”(8)
On September 18, 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, wrote, “The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms.”(9) Yet, that same month when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned the Pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige, the Secretary of State responded on the Pope’s behalf that it was impossible to verify rumors about crimes committed against the Jews.(10)
Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed to the Pope in January 1943 to publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused.(11)
Papal Reasons and Responses
The Pope finally gave a reason for his consistent refusals to make a public statement in December 1942. The Allied governments issued a declaration, “German Policy of Extermination of the Jewish Race,” which stated that there would be retribution for the perpetrators of Jewish murders. When Tittman asked Secretary of State Maglione if the Pope could issue a similar proclamation, Maglione said the papacy was “unable to denounce publicly particular atrocities.”(12) One reason for this position was that the staunchly anti-communist Pope felt he could not denounce the Nazis without including the Communists; therefore, Pius XII would only condemn general atrocities.(13)
The Pope did speak generally against the extermination campaign. On January 18, 1940, after the death toll of Polish civilians was estimated at 15,000, the Pope said in a broadcast, “The horror and inexcusable excesses committed on a helpless and a homeless people have been established by the unimpeachable testimony of eye-witnesses.”(14) During his Christmas Eve radio broadcast in 1942, he referred to the “hundreds of thousands who through no fault of their own, and solely because of their nation or race, have been condemned to death or progressive extinction.”(15) The Pope never mentioned the Jews by name.
The Pope’s indifference to the mistreatment of Jews was often clear. In 1941, for example, after being asked by French Marshal Henri Philippe Petain if the Vatican would object to anti-Jewish laws, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews.(16) When Petain’s French puppet government introduced “Jewish statutes,” the Vichy ambassador to the Holy See informed Petain that the Vatican did not consider the legislation in conflict with Catholic teachings, as long as they were carried out with “charity” and “justice.”(17)
In a September 1940 broadcast, the Vatican called its policy “neutrality,” but stated in the same broadcast that where morality was involved, no neutrality was possible.(18) This could only imply that mass murder was not a moral issue.
On September 8, 1943, the Nazis invaded Italy and, suddenly, the Vatican was the local authority. The Nazis gave the Jews 36 hours to come up with 50 kilograms of gold or else the Nazis would take 300 hostages. The Vatican was willing to loan 15 kilos, an offer that eventually proved unnecessary when the Jews obtained an extension for the delivery.(19)
Pius XII knew that Jewish deportations from Italy were impending. The Vatican even found out from SS First Lieutenant Kurt Gerstein the fate of those who were to be deported.(20) Publicly, the Pope stayed silent. Privately, Pius did instruct Catholic institutions to take in Jews. The Vatican itself hid 477 Jews and another 4,238 Jews were protected in Roman monasteries and convents.(21)
On October 16, the Nazis arrested 1,007 Roman Jews, the majority of whom were women and children. They were taken to Auschwitz, where 811 were gassed
In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.(5)
Within the Pope’s own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge d’affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being systematically deported and sent to death camps.(6)
In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain “neutral,” and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.(7)
In late August 1942, after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms and advising Septyckyj to “bear adversity with serene patience.”(8)
On September 18, 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, wrote, “The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms.”(9) Yet, that same month when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned the Pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige, the Secretary of State responded on the Pope’s behalf that it was impossible to verify rumors about crimes committed against the Jews.(10)
Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed to the Pope in January 1943 to publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused.(11)
Papal Reasons and Responses
The Pope finally gave a reason for his consistent refusals to make a public statement in December 1942. The Allied governments issued a declaration, “German Policy of Extermination of the Jewish Race,” which stated that there would be retribution for the perpetrators of Jewish murders. When Tittman asked Secretary of State Maglione if the Pope could issue a similar proclamation, Maglione said the papacy was “unable to denounce publicly particular atrocities.”(12) One reason for this position was that the staunchly anti-communist Pope felt he could not denounce the Nazis without including the Communists; therefore, Pius XII would only condemn general atrocities.(13)
The Pope did speak generally against the extermination campaign. On January 18, 1940, after the death toll of Polish civilians was estimated at 15,000, the Pope said in a broadcast, “The horror and inexcusable excesses committed on a helpless and a homeless people have been established by the unimpeachable testimony of eye-witnesses.”(14) During his Christmas Eve radio broadcast in 1942, he referred to the “hundreds of thousands who through no fault of their own, and solely because of their nation or race, have been condemned to death or progressive extinction.”(15) The Pope never mentioned the Jews by name.
The Pope’s indifference to the mistreatment of Jews was often clear. In 1941, for example, after being asked by French Marshal Henri Philippe Petain if the Vatican would object to anti-Jewish laws, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews.(16) When Petain’s French puppet government introduced “Jewish statutes,” the Vichy ambassador to the Holy See informed Petain that the Vatican did not consider the legislation in conflict with Catholic teachings, as long as they were carried out with “charity” and “justice.”(17)
In a September 1940 broadcast, the Vatican called its policy “neutrality,” but stated in the same broadcast that where morality was involved, no neutrality was possible.(18) This could only imply that mass murder was not a moral issue.
On September 8, 1943, the Nazis invaded Italy and, suddenly, the Vatican was the local authority. The Nazis gave the Jews 36 hours to come up with 50 kilograms of gold or else the Nazis would take 300 hostages. The Vatican was willing to loan 15 kilos, an offer that eventually proved unnecessary when the Jews obtained an extension for the delivery.(19)
Pius XII knew that Jewish deportations from Italy were impending. The Vatican even found out from SS First Lieutenant Kurt Gerstein the fate of those who were to be deported.(20) Publicly, the Pope stayed silent. Privately, Pius did instruct Catholic institutions to take in Jews. The Vatican itself hid 477 Jews and another 4,238 Jews were protected in Roman monasteries and convents.(21)
On October 16, the Nazis arrested 1,007 Roman Jews, the majority of whom were women and children. They were taken to Auschwitz, where 811 were gassed
M
mdgspencer
Guest
Could you tell me what publication you found these statements in?
Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.
In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.(5)
Within the Pope’s own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge d’affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being systematically deported and sent to death camps.(6)
In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain “neutral,” and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.(7)
In late August 1942, after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms and advising Septyckyj to “bear adversity with serene patience.”(8)
On September 18, 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, wrote, “The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms.”(9) Yet, that same month when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned the Pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige, the Secretary of State responded on the Pope’s behalf that it was impossible to verify rumors about crimes committed against the Jews.(10)
etc…
C
catsrus
Guest
I could hardly believe that you answered a post I made almost 5 months ago!
Whatever…
Did you read Goldhagen’s book Hitler’s Willing Executioners?Sounds like you are comparing his book with this “other (unnamed) historian” from a commentary written by a person who only agreed with the “other historian’s” point of view.
Goldhagen’s bibliography was as long as at least two of the book’s chapters.
With which of his cited refereces do you take issue?
Whatever…
Did you read Goldhagen’s book Hitler’s Willing Executioners?Sounds like you are comparing his book with this “other (unnamed) historian” from a commentary written by a person who only agreed with the “other historian’s” point of view.
Goldhagen’s bibliography was as long as at least two of the book’s chapters.
With which of his cited refereces do you take issue?
C
chosen_people
Guest
Bibliography
Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust as Told in the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. MA: Little, Brown and Co., 1993.
Gilbert, Martin. The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe During the Second World War. NY: Henry Holt And Co., 1987.
Gilbert, Martin. The Second World War: A Complete History. NY: Henry Holt And Co., 1992.
Gutman, Israel. ed. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. Vol. 3. NY: Macmillan, 1995.
Hilberg, Raul. The Destruction of the European Jews. NY: Holmes & Meier, 1985.
Hilberg, Raul. Perpetrators Victims Bystanders: The Jewish Catastrophe 1933-1945. NY: Harper Perennial Library, 1993.
Holocaust. Israel Pocket Library. Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.
International Jewish Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission. The Vatican and the Holocaust: A Preliminary Report. Submitted to The Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with Jews. October, 2000.
Perl, William R. The Holocaust Conspiracy: An International Policy of Genocide. NY: Shapolsky Publishers, 1989.
Reuters. “WJC Says it Has New Evidence Against Pius XII.” By Joan Gralla. 1/11/01.
Notes
Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust as Told in the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. MA: Little, Brown and Co., 1993.
Gilbert, Martin. The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe During the Second World War. NY: Henry Holt And Co., 1987.
Gilbert, Martin. The Second World War: A Complete History. NY: Henry Holt And Co., 1992.
Gutman, Israel. ed. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. Vol. 3. NY: Macmillan, 1995.
Hilberg, Raul. The Destruction of the European Jews. NY: Holmes & Meier, 1985.
Hilberg, Raul. Perpetrators Victims Bystanders: The Jewish Catastrophe 1933-1945. NY: Harper Perennial Library, 1993.
Holocaust. Israel Pocket Library. Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.
International Jewish Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission. The Vatican and the Holocaust: A Preliminary Report. Submitted to The Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with Jews. October, 2000.
Perl, William R. The Holocaust Conspiracy: An International Policy of Genocide. NY: Shapolsky Publishers, 1989.
Reuters. “WJC Says it Has New Evidence Against Pius XII.” By Joan Gralla. 1/11/01.
Notes
- Berenbaum, Michael, The World Must Know, p. 40.
- Perl, William, The Holocaust Conspiracy, p. 197.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1136.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1136.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1136.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1137.
- Perl, William, The Holocaust Conspiracy, p. 206.
- Hilberg, Raul, Perpetrators Victims Bystanders, p. 267.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1137.
- Israel Pocket Library, Holocaust, p. 133; Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1137.
- Israel Pocket Library, Holocaust, p. 134.
- Hilberg, Raul, The Destruction of the European Jews, p. 315.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1137; Hilberg, Raul, Perpetrators Victims Bystanders, p. 264.
- Gilbert, Martin, The Second World War, p. 40.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1137.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1137.
- Perl, William, The Holocaust Conspiracy, p. 200.
- Perl, William, The Holocaust Conspiracy, p. 200.
- Israel Pocket Library, Holocaust, p. 133.
- Perl, William, The Holocaust Conspiracy, p. 202.
- Gilbert, Martin, The Holocaust, p. 623.
- Perl, William, The Holocaust Conspiracy, p. 201.
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1138.
- Gilbert, Martin, The Holocaust, p. 701.
- Perl, William, The Holocaust Conspiracy, p. 176.
- Gutman, Israel. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1138.
- Israel Pocket Library, Holocaust, p. 136.
- Gilbert, Martin. The Second World War, p. 59.
- The Jerusalem Post. “Vatican Blocks Panel’s Access to Holocaust Archives.” By Melissa Radler. 7/24/01
- Peter Carlson, “A Diplomat’s Diary,” Washington Post, (April 22, 2004).
- Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (April 23, 2004).
- Jerusalem Report, (February 7, 2005).
- Jerusalem Post, (December 4, 2006).
- Gutman, Israel, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p. 1139.
M
mlchance
Guest
Pius XII never publicly condemned the Nazis…except for all of those radio addresses, et cetera, in which he publicly condemned the Nazis.
– Mark L. Chance.
– Mark L. Chance.
C
chosen_people
Guest
The Dutch Bishops publicly, forcefully and unequivocally condemned Nazi actions against the Jews.Pius XII never publicly condemned the Nazis…except for all of those radio addresses, et cetera, in which he publicly condemned the Nazis.
– Mark L. Chance.
During his Christmas addresses from the Vatican in 1941 and 1942, Pope Pius XII refrained from specifically mentioning the Jews or specifically condemning Nazi actions against the Jews. His defenders try to say that his condemnation could be “understood” even though not explicitly stated. Others point out that the verbal protests of the Dutch clergy was ineffective. Still others point to behind the scenes action taken by the Catholic Church to save Jews during the Holocaust.
M
mlchance
Guest
Good for them. The behavior of the Dutch people in general during WWII was exceptional.The Dutch Bishops publicly, forcefully and unequivocally condemned Nazi actions against the Jews.
Which does nothing to change the basic fact that Pius XII did condemn Nazism. He did so more than once. It also does nothing to change the fact that Pius XII did a great deal to help the Jews of Rome against the Nazis.During his Christmas addresses from the Vatican in 1941 and 1942, Pope Pius XII refrained from specifically mentioning the Jews or specifically condemning Nazi actions against the Jews. His defenders try to say that his condemnation could be “understood” even though not explicitly stated. Others point out that the verbal protests of the Dutch clergy was ineffective. Still others point to behind the scenes action taken by the Catholic Church to save Jews during the Holocaust.
All of which is far cry from nonsense that says Pius XII did nothing to help the Jews, or that he collaborated with Nazis, et cetera.
There is difference between 20/20 hindsight second-guessing Pius XII several decades after the fact, and lies that complete fabricate and distort the historical record.
– Mark L. Chance.
C
chosen_people
Guest
I gave you the facts not the distortions. How you want to interpret them is your perogative.Good for them. The behavior of the Dutch people in general during WWII was exceptional.
Which does nothing to change the basic fact that Pius XII did condemn Nazism. He did so more than once. It also does nothing to change the fact that Pius XII did a great deal to help the Jews of Rome against the Nazis.
All of which is far cry from nonsense that says Pius XII did nothing to help the Jews, or that he collaborated with Nazis, et cetera.
There is difference between 20/20 hindsight second-guessing Pius XII several decades after the fact, and lies that complete fabricate and distort the historical record.
– Mark L. Chance.
My personal feeling is that an explicit outright condemnation would have been the just and moral thing to do. That having been said, I also believe that even had such a forthright condemnation been made it would probably have had no greater impact than the vocal condemnations of the Dutch bishops. Should Catholics have expected that the head of their Church have at least the moral fortitude of the Dutch Bishops? That is for Catholics and History to decide.
No one can and should deny that the Catholic Church and its adherents saved hundreds of thousands of Jews during the Holocaust.
My problem is with the forces over the centuries that culminated with the Catholic born Hitler. My problem is with countries like the United States and Canada closing their borders to Jews and preventing them from being saved while being incited to this attitude by people like Father Coughlin. My problem is with the allies who could not find one single bomber and one single bomb to put the Aushwitz death camp out of commission for even a single day. My problem is with Ukrainian Catholics actively participating in the persecution and murder of Jews during the war. My problem is with the Catholic Church after the war raising difficulties to reunite the Jewish children they saved with their families (the Finaly case for example). My problem is with Polish Catholics after the war murdering Jews who survived the holocaust and wished to return to their homes.
How did you put it? Just the basic facts which can’t be changed.
Genesis 12:3 “And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed.”
M
mlchance
Guest
Did I say otherwise?I gave you the facts not the distortions.
Precisely. To think the leaders of the Church are blameless is just as wrong as it is to think they are all guilty of turning a blind eye to evil (or, worse yet, cooperating with evil). There are a great number of people who could have done more during WWII. We could, for example, focus on some Jewish groups cooperating with their own destruction, or on collaborators of all kinds he sold out their neighbors for their own benefit.…How did you put it? Just the basic facts which can’t be changed.
– Mark L. Chance.
C
chosen_people
Guest
I for one cannot judge any Jew placed in the position they were placed during the holocaust. Unless of course your intimating that the Jews brought it on themselves?Did I say otherwise?
. We could, for example, focus on some Jewish groups cooperating with their own destruction, or on collaborators of all kinds he sold out their neighbors for their own benefit.
– Mark L. Chance.
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
Topic exhausted. Thread closed.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.