The Mystery Of The Empty Tomb

[Ben_Masada]

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews, who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham, and we have never been slaves to any man: how sayest thou: you shall be free? 34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin. 35 Now the servant abideth not in the house for ever; but the son abideth for ever.

36 If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. 37 I know that you are the children of Abraham: but you seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do the things that you have seen with your father. 39 They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not.

41 You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: 43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not.

Come on Ben! You are twisting the verses. From verses 31 - 35 Jesus was talking to the Jews who believed him. From verses 36-44, he was speaking with the Jews who refused to believe him.

It appears that there were at least two groups of Jews Jesus had spoken with in that occassion.

**So, you think that Jesus was speaking to more than one group of Jews that day, isn’t that right? Tell me Steward, is English your mother language? If it is, spare yourself a laughing reader. You are exposing yourself to ridicule with this one.

Now, let me tell you something, for which I hope you will forgive me in case you feel offended. Myself, I do not believe that dialogue between Jesus and the Jews who had believed in him ever took place. And I would find prudent that you did the same. Why? Because of verse 41. Take another look at it. “We are not born of fornication!” Why would those Jews let off such a statement? I see the beginning of a criticism at Jesus, probably because some of them knew about Jesus’ birth. You know, that story about the alleged rape of Mary by Panthera, the Sidonian Roman soldier. You will have a much better idea if you read my thread on “The Alleged Sons of God.” It’s a pity that Jesus did not follow up on that statement with at least, “What do you mean by being born of fornication?” I would love to hear the answer of those Jews, who probably knew Jesus from childhood. Anyways, we will be better off discarding the whole thing altogether. **

 

[avflf]

A Jew would never equate himself with God. A Jew would never say that before Abraham was born, he was. These are Hellenistic expressions of the Gentile who wrote that gospel. And a Rabbi or Master would never call those who believed in him, children of the Devil. And Jesus, as a Jew, would never use such an expression because Jews don’t belielve in devils. And if the writer was a Jew, he would never claim that God came down in the flesh of a man. Jews are Monotheistic and a little more intelligent than that.

I don’t know about this last one. The writer of Genesis, which tradition says it was Moses, seemed to believe that Yahweh came as a man to Abraham and spoke to him and ate with him when on the way to Sodom (Gen. 18) so a god incarnating was also part of the Jewish belief. Why couldn’t Yahweh do it a second time. i.e. Jesus?

 

[Dokimas]

**Regarding appearing for 40 days soon after such a crucifixion you have to accept by faith, because it was reported 50+ years after the fact. Then, if we go down into the details of the, according to Luke, “convincing proofs that he was alive after his passion,” the resurrection will be denied anyways. Then to be taken good care of, he got VIP treatment at the hands of a millionary, as was Joseph of Arimathea.

Regarding being willing to die for a cause, holds no water because hundreds of Bahai went to their death in Iran at the time of the Aiatolla Hommeni and never retracted. Muslims do this all the time as a testimony to Islam. Does it mean they have the Truth? I didn’t think so. **

Sure people die for what they think is true. How many die for what they know to be a lie?

 

[Dokimas]

The text says that Jesus had been raised and not risen. There is an enormous difference between being raised and risen. By the will of God, one is risen. By the will of man one is raised. Jesus was raised, and there is no use to try to rewrite the text, because it won’t help.

Do you have Greek prooff for your claim?

 

[Dokimas]

**Regarding appearing for 40 days soon after such a crucifixion you have to accept by faith, because it was reported 50+ years after the fact. **​

According to all kinds of NT historians (both pro and con) 1 Corinthians was written withing 25yrs of the resurrection by a man who believed he saw the resurrected Jesus and who had spoken to people who had also seen the resurrected Jesus (maybe as many as 500). So your 50+ yrs isn’t quite accurate.​

www.garyhabernas.com​

BTW, it’s easy for to argue with non-Jewish Christians. Howabout arguing with a Jewish Christian like Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum – www.ariel.org

 

[Dokimas]

I put no limitation to God’s power. God can come down incarnated even as a cow, according to Hindhuism. But why should He have come in the flesh of a Jew, because you or Paul have decided so? You are trying to control what God should do or should have done. It just doesn’t go that way. Capicci?

God would do things according to His Word and Will. If cows had been God’s crowning creation and had sinned, then maybe … You and I are sinners and Jesus became one of us to die as a Human for human sin.​

Thank you for asking such simple questions. Do you understand?

 

[Dokimas]

**So, you think that Jesus was speaking to more than one group of Jews that day, isn’t that right? Tell me Steward, is English your mother language? If it is, spare yourself a laughing reader. You are exposing yourself to ridicule with this one.

Now, let me tell you something, for which I hope you will forgive me in case you feel offended. Myself, I do not believe that dialogue between Jesus and the Jews **​

Actually I thought Steward did very well. It is me, because of my writtings, you should question a persons ability to communicate in their mother language, not Steward.​

Why would anyone get offended by anothers wrong opinion? Just asking because questioning minds want to know.

 

[Dokimas]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada
A Jew would never equate himself with God. A Jew would never say that before Abraham was born, he was. These are Hellenistic expressions of the Gentile who wrote that gospel. And a Rabbi or Master would never call those who believed in him, children of the Devil. And Jesus, as a Jew, would never use such an expression because Jews don’t belielve in devils. And if the writer was a Jew, he would never claim that God came down in the flesh of a man. Jews are Monotheistic and a little more intelligent than that.

Are you saying Paul, John and Peter weren’t Jews? Are you saying Jesus wasn’t a Jew?​

Are you saying those of “Jews for Jesus” aren’t Jews? What about Dr Fruchtenbaum?

 

[w_stewart]

I put no limitation to God’s power. God can come down incarnated even as a cow, according to Hindhuism. But why should He have come in the flesh of a Jew, because you or Paul have decided so?

Because God willed it. The followers of Jesus merely recorded what Jesus had said.

You are trying to control what God should do or should have done.

Because the Jews could not believe that God could become man and died for the salvation of humanity?

Who is controlling God now?

 

[w_stewart]

So, you think that Jesus was speaking to more than one group of Jews that day, isn’t that right? Tell me Steward, is English your mother language? If it is, spare yourself a laughing reader. You are exposing yourself to ridicule with this one.

English is not my mother language. But obviously, my comprehension appears to be superior than yours in this regard.

Now, let me tell you something, for which I hope you will forgive me in case you feel offended. Myself, I do not believe that dialogue between Jesus and the Jews who had believed in him ever took place. And I would find prudent that you did the same. Why? Because of verse 41. Take another look at it. “We are not born of fornication!” Why would those Jews let off such a statement? I see the beginning of a criticism at Jesus, probably because some of them knew about Jesus’ birth. You know, that story about the alleged rape of Mary by Panthera, the Sidonian Roman soldier. You will have a much better idea if you read my thread on “The Alleged Sons of God.” It’s a pity that Jesus did not follow up on that statement with at least, “What do you mean by being born of fornication?” I would love to hear the answer of those Jews, who probably knew Jesus from childhood. Anyways, we will be better off discarding the whole thing altogether.

Oh come on! Why don’t you sell that story to someone like Dan Brown?

 

[Lapell]

A Jew would never equate himself with God. A Jew would never say that before Abraham was born, he was. These are Hellenistic expressions of the Gentile who wrote that gospel. And a Rabbi or Master would never call those who believed in him, children of the Devil. And Jesus, as a Jew, would never use such an expression because Jews don’t belielve in devils. And if the writer was a Jew, he would never claim that God came down in the flesh of a man. Jews are Monotheistic and a little more intelligent than that.

Maybe (except for your saying that Jews don’t believe the devil exists may be true of a number of Jews, but not of all of them, far from it!), but God the Son came in the form of ONE man born of a Jewish mother. Just ONE man. Is this shocking to you? He said that had He said He is not the expected Messiah, He would have been a liar. And He said “Before Abraham was, I AM!”

 

[Lapell]

I put no limitation to God’s power. God can come down incarnated even as a cow, according to Hindhuism. But why should He have come in the flesh of a Jew, because you or Paul have decided so? You are trying to control what God should do or should have done. It just doesn’t go that way. Capicci?

No, not one Apostle, not even Paul “decided so”? Paul was on his way to Damascus with letters to have Nazarenes, as you call them, arrested when he met the Resurrected Jesus whom he hadn’t believed to be anything but a blasphemer whose disciples should be considered equally blasphemers. That meeting changed his whole life and from then on he couldn’t believe the same things against those people. You haven’t had your Damascus’ way yet…

 

[Ben_Masada]

I don’t know about this last one. The writer of Genesis, which tradition says it was Moses, seemed to believe that Yahweh came as a man to Abraham and spoke to him and ate with him when on the way to Sodom (Gen. 18) so a god incarnating was also part of the Jewish belief. Why couldn’t Yahweh do it a second time. i.e. Jesus?

Abraham had a vision. Everything is possible in a vision or dream, even for a cow to fly.
In visions and dreams it is very much possible to see God and live. Everything is possible; even for spirits to eat and drink, but not in reality. In reality, God is Incorporeal. You will have a much better idea if you read my thread on my views about visions and dreams.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Sure people die for what they think is true. How many die for what they know to be a lie?

Who died for anything they thought was a lie, the Apostles? Jesus was not a lie. A lie was what Paul and his Christians claimed about Jesus. The Apostles never preached about Jesus as the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. That’s a Pauline fabrication preached by Hellenistic Gentiles former disciples of Paul.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Do you have Greek prooff for your claim?

**I have three versions of the NT with me: The KJV, the Catholic NABV, and one in Hebrew presented to me by a fella from the “Jews-for-Jesus” here in Israel. All three versions bring the translation as “Jesus was raised” and not that Jesus rose or was risen. If in such a manner the Christian Scholars translated the text from the Greek, it is only obvious that the word in Greek could not have been rendered any better otherwise. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

According to all kinds of NT historians (both pro and con) 1 Corinthians was written withing 25yrs of the resurrection by a man who believed he saw the resurrected Jesus and who had spoken to people who had also seen the resurrected Jesus (maybe as many as 500). So your 50+ yrs isn’t quite accurate.​

www.garyhabernas.com​

BTW, it’s easy for to argue with non-Jewish Christians. Howabout arguing with a Jewish Christian like Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum – www.ariel.org

**You are talking about Paul. Mind you that he started writing 35 years after Jesus had been gone. And he did all his writings in the span of about 5 years. Regarding seeing Jesus, I don’t advise you to believe in him because he had a history of lying. Besides, to see Jesus after his crucifixion is not proof even that he died, let alone that he resurrected. Read Acts 1:1-3. Luke says that Jesus appeared to his disciples after his “suffering or passion”. It means, he could have survived the cross.

My 50+ years after Jesus had been gone is for the writings of the gospels which covered the time from 75 until 100 CE.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Are you saying Paul, John and Peter weren’t Jews? Are you saying Jesus wasn’t a Jew?​

Are you saying those of “Jews for Jesus” aren’t Jews? What about Dr Fruchtenbaum?

**No! John and Peter were Jews but none of the gospel writers was Jewish. Paul was born Jewish, but he ceased being Jewish when he apostated from Judaism to found Christianity.

Jesus was Jewish, but when you say that he was born of God with a woman, you make of him a Greek, because there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.

Yes, I am saying that “Jews-for-Jesus” are NOT Jewish. They are former Jews who apostated from Judaism. If a Catholic converts to Protestantism, would you still consider him a Catholic? I don’t think so. That’s the same with us.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Because God willed it. The followers of Jesus merely recorded what Jesus had said.

 

[Ben_Masada]

English is not my mother language. But obviously, my comprehension appears to be superior than yours in this regard.

Oh come on! Why don’t you sell that story to someone like Dan Brown?

**As I can see, you are not ready for storms. Your attitude reminds me of cautious Doctors on reporting a terminal disease to a patient. The news might finish with the patient before the disease itself.

And, by the way, who is this Dan Brown? Other people have mentioned his name and I have never read anything about him.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Maybe (except for your saying that Jews don’t believe the devil exists may be true of a number of Jews, but not of all of them, far from it!), but God the Son came in the form of ONE man born of a Jewish mother. Just ONE man. Is this shocking to you? He said that had He said He is not the expected Messiah, He would have been a liar. And He said “Before Abraham was, I AM!”

What is shocking to me is for Gentiles to insult Judaism by picking up a Jew and making a Greek demigod out of him as if Greek Mythology is possible in Judaism.