The myth of Adam and Eve

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Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:
  1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
  2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
  3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?
Your thought?
 
…don’t try to read Genesis literally?

Although that reply risks derailing the thread onto the issue of how exactly you should read Genesis.
 
It’s a parable. It’s not meant to be taken seriously.

Except of course we need a reason for the fall.

So it needs to be taken literally.

Except that it isn’t obviously true.

But we need someone to blame.

So…fig leaves and ribs and snakes and apples.
 
Whatever the basis of the story, the fact is that sin is quite real in this world.

Some headlines just from today’s local Google news, via other newssources -
  1. Boy in alleged Anzac Day terrorism plot was intercepted on social media: police
  2. Stolen SES vehicle rams police car in Melbourne’s south-east
  3. MH17 plane crash: New BBC documentary to air new claims the flight was targeted by a Ukraine jet.
  4. Police have arrested the partner of Tina Kontozis, who was bashed to death with a cricket bat in her Bundeena home on Sunday.
  5. An Australian filmmaker is preparing to make a graphic movie about Australia’s most prolific mass murderer …
  6. TELSTRA’S horror start to 2016 looks set to continue, with thousands of its customers claiming to be involved in a mobile billing “scam”…
  7. Senior police believe the quick thinking of hero paramedics saved the life of a teenage girl who overdosed at the popular Groovin’ the Moo festival at Maitland.
  8. Drones may soon have the capability to save thousands of lives each year by detecting terrorists’ improvised explosive devices and active land mines from long-ago wars thanks to innovative technology developed at UW-Madison.
And that’s just our local news.

And it would appear we all descended from Mitochondrial Eve, one femail ancestor, so in that respect the Genesis story is correct, even though the ancient Israelites knew nothing of genetics, nor the fact humans were to be found all over the world, even in unlikely places like Easter Island (at one point).

science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/female-ancestor.htm
Even more impressive, the geneticists concluded that every person on Earth right now can trace his or her lineage back to a single common female ancestor who lived around 200,000 years ago.
That dispersion was addressed in the story of Babel. Once again there was an underlying theme to it which was quite solid - humans had spread out all over the earth, and they spoke many different languages.

linguisticsociety.org/content/how-many-languages-are-there-world
… At least 500 (But that’s just in Northern Italy)…
So in a few chapters, the writers of Genesis dealt with the obvious issue of sin, the fact we all have single maternal ancestor, the fact that humans have spread all over the world (although the authors had no way of confirming that) and the immense diversity of languages.

That’s what I call effective journalism. There is no other ancient writing like it.
 
Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:
  1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
  2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
  3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?
Your thought?
Why do people today, still read material designed for the intellect of man from 2000 years ago?

God has revealed Himself more recently to appeal to today’s human thinking and intellect.

It baffles me that we are trying to “understand” these things from Genesis when the only relevance it has today is that of “human beings sometimes do the wrong thing”. That’s the only relevance it has, nothing more and nothing less.

Those who choose to live their lives by teachings that are more than 2000 years old can happily do so. In the meantime, it would be of great merit if those who see through these ancient teachings find means by which we can apply more modern thinking to the current spiritual condition of the individual the community and it’s institutions.

.
 
It’s a parable. It’s not meant to be taken seriously.

Except of course we need a reason for the fall.

So it needs to be taken literally.

Except that it isn’t obviously true.

But we need someone to blame.

So…fig leaves and ribs and snakes and apples.
It’s always more fun to lampoon something than it is to try to deal with it honestly and on its own terms, eh?

Yes, it’s meant to be taken seriously; not literally true, but true figuratively.
 
This is from EWTN, Fr. Saunders, about free will in Heaven:

However, if these angels were in heaven, why would they rebel against God? Both Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) and Clement of Alexandria (d. 211) speculated that at the beginning, the angels did not possess the full beatitude of heaven. Instead, they underwent a period of trial and those that made the choice to serve and to love the Lord and to remain faithful to Him attained the full happiness of heaven, whereas those that rebelled were cast into hell.

The whole thing is worth reading, it’s not too long:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FRWILL.htm
 
Why do people today, still read material designed for the intellect of man from 2000 years ago?
.
Why do people from today automatically assume that they’re intellectually superior to people from 2000 years ago?

You know, the people from the civilizations that literally gave us the foundation of all philosophical thought…

A greater degree of collective knowledge does not coincide with cultural intellectual superiority.
 
Who were the first two humans then? Do we need two fully healthy complete humans to have started the human race, or is it all a matter of survival. Should they have been complete in terms of spirituality, (in that they did not sin), or are we just part of the journey to perfection as human beings and the story of Adam and Eve depending on how the individual understands it, will either take them to a higher way of living or lower way?
 
There were 2 human beings, male and female. Whether the names were A&E or how the bodies came to be IS not known.

ICXC NIKA
 
Who were the first two humans then? Do we need two fully healthy complete humans to have started the human race, or is it all a matter of survival. Should they have been complete in terms of spirituality, (in that they did not sin), or are we just part of the journey to perfection as human beings and the story of Adam and Eve depending on how the individual understands it, will either take them to a higher way of living or lower way?
Adam and Eve were created in sanctifying grace, but they had to merit actual grace. They did not have full beatitude, i.e., they did not “see” God. They failed their test. They let pride get in the way because they wanted to be “as gods.” They wanted to know what God knows. So, they fell, they were stripped of sanctifying grace and cast from the Garden. The two human beings who are the parents of the human race were fallen human beings. That’s why they transmit disease, death, and the tendency to sin to us. We receive sanctifying grace in the sacrament of baptism.
 
Adam and Eve were created in sanctifying grace, but they had to merit actual grace. They did not have full beatitude, i.e., they did not “see” God. They failed their test. They let pride get in the way because they wanted to be “as gods.” They wanted to know what God knows. So, they fell, they were stripped of sanctifying grace and cast from the Garden. The two human beings who are the parents of the human race were fallen human beings. That’s why they transmit disease, death, and the tendency to sin to us. We receive sanctifying grace in the sacrament of baptism.
Hi Lily,

Why did they want to know what God knows?

This question may appear off-topic, but I think begins to go to the core of the issue.

Perhaps we can word it this way:

Why do we want to know what God knows?
 
There is a persistence, so there is that.

Seems like there is a lack of desire to understand.

Is there a thread record that we are trying to reach where we ask / answer the same questions over and over?
 
Why do people from today automatically assume that they’re intellectually superior to people from 2000 years ago?

You know, the people from the civilizations that literally gave us the foundation of all philosophical thought…

A greater degree of collective knowledge does not coincide with cultural intellectual superiority.
I totally agree with you, but those with strong intellects were much fewer and further between.

Genesis was clearly designed to awaken the intellect of man from its early slumber. We can rationally find explanations for cosmological realities using more recent religious Revelations which corresponds well with scientific discovery today.

The proof is in the reality that an allegorical explanation of Genesis is a relatively recent phenomenon.

For your information however, I do believe in certain aspects of Genesis to be literally true.

.
 
From Catholic Answers:

"Real History

The argument is that all of this is real history, it is simply ordered topically rather than chronologically, and the ancient audience of Genesis, it is argued, would have understood it as such.

"Even if Genesis 1 records God’s work in a topical fashion, it still records God’s work—things God really did.

"The Catechism explains that “Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine ‘work,’ concluded by the ‘rest’ of the seventh day” (CCC 337), but “nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God’s word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history is rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun” (CCC 338).

"It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

"Adam and Eve: Real People

"It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390)."

Ed
 
Why do people today, still read material designed for the intellect of man from 2000 years ago?

God has revealed Himself more recently to appeal to today’s human thinking and intellect.

It baffles me that we are trying to “understand” these things from Genesis when the only relevance it has today is that of “human beings sometimes do the wrong thing”. That’s the only relevance it has, nothing more and nothing less.

Those who choose to live their lives by teachings that are more than 2000 years old can happily do so. In the meantime, it would be of great merit if those who see through these ancient teachings find means by which we can apply more modern thinking to the current spiritual condition of the individual the community and it’s institutions.
This is off topic but one falls in a great confusion if s/he tries to unify all religion. Let me give you some examples: drinking wine is prohibit in Islam but allowed in Christianity, killing your enemy is allowed in Islam but in Christianity it is asked to forgive your enemy, etc.
 
Who were the first two humans then? Do we need two fully healthy complete humans to have started the human race, or is it all a matter of survival. Should they have been complete in terms of spirituality, (in that they did not sin), or are we just part of the journey to perfection as human beings and the story of Adam and Eve depending on how the individual understands it, will either take them to a higher way of living or lower way?
There were 2 human beings, male and female. Whether the names were A&E or how the bodies came to be IS not known.

ICXC NIKA
Adam and Eve were created in sanctifying grace, but they had to merit actual grace. They did not have full beatitude, i.e., they did not “see” God. They failed their test. They let pride get in the way because they wanted to be “as gods.” They wanted to know what God knows. So, they fell, they were stripped of sanctifying grace and cast from the Garden. The two human beings who are the parents of the human race were fallen human beings. That’s why they transmit disease, death, and the tendency to sin to us. We receive sanctifying grace in the sacrament of baptism.
While I can imagine reasonable apologetics for divine creation and meaningful readings of Genesis, this is not the correct path. A single, founding pair cannot account for the genetic diversity of our species.

With the advance of genomics, we can study population bottlenecks in any species today. It’s thought humans went through a bottleneck of perhaps as few as 1000 breeding pairs after the Toba eruption. There is no evidence for a smaller bottleneck.
And it would appear we all descended from Mitochondrial Eve, one femail ancestor, so in that respect the Genesis story is correct, even though the ancient Israelites knew nothing of genetics, nor the fact humans were to be found all over the world, even in unlikely places like Easter Island (at one point).

science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/female-ancestor.htm
Mitochondrial Eve is a moving target. Every generation, at any one point in time, has one, by mathematical necessity. There is no further implication that any of these mitochondrial Eves was the sole woman alive in her time.

Consider all mothers alive today. All of them had mothers, and there were less of them than today, because some had multiple daughters who became mothers in their turn, and some had only sons. The mothers of the mothers of today’s mothers, and so on, form a strictly decreasing sequence which must end with a single woman. Else the lines go back beyond a speciation boundary, and we have individuals from separate species breeding, which would be a contradiction.

Our mitochondrial Eve’s female cousins are remarkable only because their lines of daughter to daughter eventually failed, much like a monarch’s male line can fail. And again, our mitochodrial Eve and her female cousins had their own mitochondrial Eve, further back in time. And so did their mitochondrial Eve, and so on.
So in a few chapters, the writers of Genesis dealt with the obvious issue of sin, the fact we all have single maternal ancestor, the fact that humans have spread all over the world (although the authors had no way of confirming that) and the immense diversity of languages.
That’s what I call effective journalism. There is no other ancient writing like it.
It’s certainly effective myth.
  1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
But if the facts don’t check, it’s not journalism.

If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out — This is a saying popularized by the folks at the Chicago News Service.*

Correction: The organization that originated the saying “if your mother tells you she loves you, check it out” was not called the Chicago News Service. It was called the City News Bureau. Here’s a ninth rule for doing accurate journalism: always double-check names. CJR regrets the error.

Sin, in some sense, is endemic in humans, but there is no suggestion it had a beginning. Rather, like consciousness, it is better described as an emergent phenomena.

We have a single female ancestor for our mitochondrial DNA, as it is handed off (almost entirely, but not quite) along the female line in humans, because human sperm doesn’t (except on rare occasions) transport its mitochondria to the egg. The rest of our DNA derives from the full span of female, and male of course, ancestors.

While humans have spread across the world, they were never gathered in the land of Shina (ancient Sumeria, modern Iraq), did not spread out from there, and never experienced a unique language confounding. Multiple lines of evidence, from linguistics to population genetics, show humans, and their languages spreading out from Africa.

Certainly there are other ancient writings like the Bible, and far more ancient in fact. The expansiveness of the Biblical writings has no contemporary peer, however. As such, and owing to the number of modern religious faiths deriving from that region, it is indeed unparalleled. But again, to fully appreciate it as a sacred text, its contemporary and ancestral traditions should not be minimized.
Whatever the basis of the story, the fact is that sin is quite real in this world.
By whatever name we call our failure to live up to our potential, this much is true.

As ever, Jesse
 
I think that God wanted to test Adam and Eve: to reveal them to temptation and see if they could overcome it, so that human love for God would be a choice, not forced upon them. He gave the angels the same choice, and the angels split up into two groups: one to follow Satan, who did not resist sin; and one to follow God under the leadership of Michael, who did resist it, and so acquired the gift to live constantly in God’s presence, whereas the others were banished, or rather chose to go to, Hell.

I hope this has helped,

Nozzer
 
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