The myth of Adam and Eve

[DCNBILL]

Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:

1. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?

Your thought?

Creation for the sake of redemption?

 

[o_mlly]

Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:

1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?

Your thought?

There is another option: wait until the end of the play before judging the Playwright.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

There is a persistence, so there is that.

Seems like there is a lack of desire to understand.

Is there a thread record that we are trying to reach where we ask / answer the same questions over and over?

I agree. Will Bahman ever quit asking the same question over and over and never comprehend the answers? In one ear and out the other.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think that God wanted to test Adam and Eve: to reveal them to temptation and see if they could overcome it, so that human love for God would be a choice, not forced upon them. He gave the angels the same choice, and the angels split up into two groups: one to follow Satan, who did not resist sin; and one to follow God under the leadership of Michael, who did resist it, and so acquired the gift to live constantly in God’s presence, whereas the others were banished, or rather chose to go to, Hell.

I hope this has helped,

Nozzer

Good answer.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Adam and Eve were created in sanctifying grace, but they had to merit actual grace. They did not have full beatitude, i.e., they did not “see” God. They failed their test. They let pride get in the way because they wanted to be “as gods.” They wanted to know what God knows. So, they fell, they were stripped of sanctifying grace and cast from the Garden. The two human beings who are the parents of the human race were fallen human beings. That’s why they transmit disease, death, and the tendency to sin to us. We receive sanctifying grace in the sacrament of baptism.

Good answer.

 

[Wesrock]

The angels did not have the beatific vision prior to their choice. Lucifer has never had it, or been in Heaven.

The important point it that Adam and Eve thought they knew better than God about Good and Evil and declared themselves judges of it of it. They had full knowledge they were disobeying God. And they were furthermore unrepentant about it. Any free, rational being has the choice to obey God or not.

God permitted it, yes. Your point? Are you sufficiently omniscient and omnipotent to make the judgment call that this was a bad choice?

 

[simpleas]

Can someone help me out as to what Jesus meant by this :

John 9;2

As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.…

Why would Jesus say the above, if the very first parents are the ones that are responsible for our human frailties, sin etc? Jesus seems to say it’s God great work that a person is born with an infliction rather than explaining about the first two children of God. It does not make sense to me.

Thanks.

 

[Wesrock]

Can someone help me out as to what Jesus meant by this :

John 9;2

As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.…

Why would Jesus say the above, if the very first parents are the ones that are responsible for our human frailties, sin etc? Jesus seems to say it’s God great work that a person is born with an infliction rather than explaining about the first two children of God. It does not make sense to me.

Thanks.

Original sin applies to all men. We all inherit the wounded nature. Original sin is not the same as personal sin. People often attributed illness and terrible accidents as justice for personal sins. “This man deserves to be ill! Or he deserved what happened to him!” Why? What did this man do? “I don’t know, but it must have been something terrible otherwise this would not have happened!” That is actually much of the discussion in the Book of Job. Job’s friends insist that Job repent and that he must have sinned greatly, while Job keeps saying he hasn’t done anything to repent and that he is innocent. His friend’s don’t believe him, because the disasters he faced serve as proof in themselves (according to them). If you are rich and have a good family you are OBVIOUSLY righteuous. If you are poor or ill you obviously deserve that, too.

Jesus was refuting that way of thinking. He was pointing out that this blind man’s condition was not due to any personal sins on his part or the part of his parent’s. The additional troubles we may face above and beyond our nature, which men share, are not necessarily indicative of personal sin.

 

[Memaw]

…don’t try to read Genesis literally?

Although that reply risks derailing the thread onto the issue of how exactly you should read Genesis.

Really??? No Adam and Eve, No us. No original sin, No need for Jesus to redeem people who don’t actually exist. So what do you think this is all about ? The “smarter” we get, it seems we know more than God. I TRUST HIM! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Mary_Estelle]

aww, behind every myth there is a kernel of truth. Do you believe that the USA is a true democracy or that we won’t flub up in the generations to come? Genesis most likely started out as oral history/belief long [SIGN]-]/-][/SIGN]before the written word. Oral history and traditions tend to change and sometimes blur over time. Look at us today in this time of the information highway. Is everything you are told verbally or in the written word 100% accurate?

God is within and of us so I don’t get hyper over symantics. Got other stuff to get hyper over-like my spelling!!

 

[DCNBILL]

Really??? No Adam and Eve, No us. No original sin, No need for Jesus to redeem people who don’t actually exist. So what do you think this is all about ? The “smarter” we get, it seems we know more than God. I TRUST HIM! God Bless, Memaw

Or it seems that we are repeating the sin all over again, we are god.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:

1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?

Your thought?

There is a phrase (I think said by a saint) that says “O happy fault”… (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_culpa) meaning, without having committed a fault, the person would not have been brought forth to the greater good.

Who says God did not know what He was doing when He created everything.  Remember Jesus, His Son was with Him when He allowed this- the fall, although not incarnated until the proper time.  I think He knows exactly what He is doing, and its not even possible that our feeble minds could reason away or come up with logical conclusions to figure out things.   If we could, we would be God... which is why atheism is kind of scary, not that a Christian can't be the same way sometimes as well.   The *feeling* of being in control is a false comfort.  Knowing you are fearing God and obeying God is the only true peace available to us.

Anyone who tries to reason away God and the Scriptures can’t. Anyone who tries to figure out God and the Scriptures can’t. (Not to say you can’t glean very important wisdom from doing so though). We aren’t God. We haven’t got that sort of intelligence. We rely on Him.

Call me strange, but I actually think a God who is all wise would allow that to happen. Would it not be the opposite that would be stagnancy and rot? (not caring, not loving, not wise?) Love is more important than wisdom. Fear of God is what brings for wisdom. (Because we realize we are not God, not in control and not knowing what lies ahead for us) What is wisdom used for then?

How is a God so advanced and so far from us supposed to bring us to Himself out of love? Could God create another God?

I’m reminded of those who work with those with domestic problems, behavioral problems, mental problems… they employ different methods to try and get those with problems to understand. Also, reminded of Helen Keller. How do you teach someone who is blind and deaf what she is missing, what she would not understand if it weren’t on the behalf of those who can see and hear? And who could argue that her disability would not propose a problem to her for her safety? Also, on the other end, who could not say that her disability (her life experience) would not propose to OTHERS something they did not realize as well?

 

[simpleas]

Original sin applies to all men. We all inherit the wounded nature. Original sin is not the same as personal sin. People often attributed illness and terrible accidents as justice for personal sins. “This man deserves to be ill! Or he deserved what happened to him!” Why? What did this man do? “I don’t know, but it must have been something terrible otherwise this would not have happened!” That is actually much of the discussion in the Book of Job. Job’s friends insist that Job repent and that he must have sinned greatly, while Job keeps saying he hasn’t done anything to repent and that he is innocent. His friend’s don’t believe him, because the disasters he faced serve as proof in themselves (according to them). If you are rich and have a good family you are OBVIOUSLY righteuous. If you are poor or ill you obviously deserve that, too.

Jesus was refuting that way of thinking. He was pointing out that this blind man’s condition was not due to any personal sins on his part or the part of his parent’s. The additional troubles we may face above and beyond our nature, which men share, are not necessarily indicative of personal sin.

So we did inherit sin (wounded nature) from the first parents, that’s what we are taught, yet when asked, Jesus does not explain what we know as Original sin, he speaks of God’s good works.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

There is a phrase (I think said by a saint) that says “O happy fault”… (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_culpa) meaning, without having committed a fault, the person would not have been brought forth to the greater good.

Who says God did not know what He was doing when He created everything.  Remember Jesus, His Son was with Him when He allowed this- the fall, although not incarnated until the proper time.  I think He knows exactly what He is doing, and its not even possible that our feeble minds could reason away or come up with logical conclusions to figure out things.   If we could, we would be God... which is why atheism is kind of scary, not that a Christian can't be the same way sometimes as well.   The *feeling* of being in control is a false comfort.  Knowing you are fearing God and obeying God is the only true peace available to us.

Anyone who tries to reason away God and the Scriptures can’t. Anyone who tries to figure out God and the Scriptures can’t. (Not to say you can’t glean very important wisdom from doing so though). We aren’t God. We haven’t got that sort of intelligence. We rely on Him.

Call me strange, but I actually think a God who is all wise would allow that to happen. Would it not be the opposite that would be stagnancy and rot? (not caring, not loving, not wise?) Love is more important than wisdom. Fear of God is what brings for wisdom. (Because we realize we are not God, not in control and not knowing what lies ahead for us) What is wisdom used for then?

How is a God so advanced and so far from us supposed to bring us to Himself out of love? Could God create another God?

I’m reminded of those who work with those with domestic problems, behavioral problems, mental problems… they employ different methods to try and get those with problems to understand. Also, reminded of Helen Keller. How do you teach someone who is blind and deaf what she is missing, what she would not understand if it weren’t on the behalf of those who can see and hear? And who could argue that her disability would not propose a problem to her for her safety? Also, on the other end, who could not say that her disability (her life experience) would not propose to OTHERS something they did not realize as well?

nice

 

[Wesrock]

So we did inherit sin (wounded nature) from the first parents, that’s what we are taught, yet when asked, Jesus does not explain what we know as Original sin, he speaks of God’s good works.

The discussion in this case wasn’t about original sin, and neither was the implication behind the question. The obvious point the disciples were asking about was personal sin, and the idea that if a man is prosperous he is therefore righteous or that if he is ill he is therefore a sinner, no further questions asked. We can’t just pluck the question and answer from the context of what is being addressed here.

 

[Memaw]

There were 2 human beings, male and female. Whether the names were A&E or how the bodies came to be IS not known.

ICXC NIKA

The bodies came to be because GOD created them. If you want to think you came from a monkey, that’s OK with me, but I DON"T! God Bless, Memaw

 

[simpleas]

The discussion in this case wasn’t about original sin, and neither was the implication behind the question. The obvious point the disciples were asking about was personal sin, and the idea that if a man is prosperous he is therefore righteous or that if he is ill he is therefore a sinner, no further questions asked. We can’t just pluck the question and answer from the context of what is being addressed here.

Yes I understand that Jesus was explaining that a person born with a physical disability did not sin nor did the parents, but it is pretty much the opposite when we say that the first two ever humans did sin and caused the fall of the human race, which inflicts some people with physical disabilities and all with a spiritual brokenness.

 

[Servant19]

Yes I understand that Jesus was explaining that a person born with a physical disability did not sin nor did the parents, but it is pretty much the opposite when we say that the first two ever humans did sin and caused the fall of the human race, which inflicts some people with physical disabilities and all with a spiritual brokenness.

It seems clear that in Christianity, there is a tremendous confusion between the “physical” and the “spiritual”, the “literal” and the “symbolic”…

.

 

[mikekle]

Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:

1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?

Your thought?

I dont believe satan and the demons actually ‘fell’ or tried to rebel in heaven, I think they were just doing exactly what God intended them to do, there duty was to be ‘the other choice’ the alternative to God, after all, without 2 sides, how can there even be a choice?

Satan and the rest of the angels KNEW ‘what’ God was and how all-powerful he was, to think satan was so stupid, he actually thought he had a chance of overthrowing God and taking over…YEAH RIGHT, even us lowly humans can see that would be impossible.

Without satan or the demons being there, who would have been there to tempt adam and eve, who would be here in our times to tempt us, draw us away from God? God said he wanted a world with free will…well free will means there must be some other alternative to God.

I think the story of the fall is just that…a story, so we can better relate to it, its much easier to understand the story than to try to comprehend an all powerful God ‘engineering’ everything with extreme precision.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

amazon.com/The-Problem-of-Pain/dp/B0009P425K

Interesting thoughts by CS Lewis in The Problem of Pain.

Interpreting the bible is difficult and requires humility as a foundation for success. Dei Verbum can help:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, (9) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (10)