The myth of Adam and Eve

[edwest2]

So we did inherit sin (wounded nature) from the first parents, that’s what we are taught, yet when asked, Jesus does not explain what we know as Original sin, he speaks of God’s good works.

Jesus died as a sacrifice for all men. He came to call sinners to repentance. Why? Original Sin.

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29 NIV

Ed

 

[Bahman]

I think that God wanted to test Adam and Eve: to reveal them to temptation and see if they could overcome it, so that human love for God would be a choice, not forced upon them. He gave the angels the same choice, and the angels split up into two groups: one to follow Satan, who did not resist sin; and one to follow God under the leadership of Michael, who did resist it, and so acquired the gift to live constantly in God’s presence, whereas the others were banished, or rather chose to go to, Hell.

I hope this has helped,

Nozzer

What is the point testing when you know the result and consequence, committing sin.

 

[Bahman]

Creation for the sake of redemption?

Allowing the sin happen for sake of redemption? I don’t think so.

 

[Bahman]

There is another option: wait until the end of the play before judging the Playwright.

We know how the story finishes, final judgment.

 

[Bahman]

The angels did not have the beatific vision prior to their choice. Lucifer has never had it, or been in Heaven.

The important point it that Adam and Eve thought they knew better than God about Good and Evil and declared themselves judges of it of it. They had full knowledge they were disobeying God. And they were furthermore unrepentant about it. Any free, rational being has the choice to obey God or not.

God permitted it, yes. Your point? Are you sufficiently omniscient and omnipotent to make the judgment call that this was a bad choice?

God by this allowed that sin happen in his world.

 

[Vico]

Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:

1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?

Your thought?

Catechism

324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Rom 5:20).

The angels were not in heaven when they sinned. (See No. 40 below)

Baltimore Catechism

1. Which are the chief creatures of God?
   The chief creatures of God are angels and men.

Thou hast made him a little less than the angels; thou hast crowned him with glory and honor; and thou hast set him over the works of thy hands. (Psalm 8:6-7)

1. What are angels?
   Angels are created spirits, without bodies, having understanding and free will.

Thousands and thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before him. (Daniel 7:10)

1. What gifts did God bestow on the angels when He created them?
   When God created the angels He bestowed on them great wisdom, power, and holiness.

O ye angels of the Lord, bless the Lord. (Daniel 3:58)

1. Did all the angels remain faithful to God?
   Not all the angels remained faithful to God; some of them sinned.

And there was a battle in heaven; Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any more in heaven. (Apocalypse 12:7)

1. What happened to the angels who remained faithful to God?
   The angels who remained faithful to God entered into the eternal happiness of heaven, and these are called good angels.

See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you, their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)

Catechism

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265/

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

 

[Bahman]

I dont believe satan and the demons actually ‘fell’ or tried to rebel in heaven, I think they were just doing exactly what God intended them to do, there duty was to be ‘the other choice’ the alternative to God, after all, without 2 sides, how can there even be a choice?

Satan and the rest of the angels KNEW ‘what’ God was and how all-powerful he was, to think satan was so stupid, he actually thought he had a chance of overthrowing God and taking over…YEAH RIGHT, even us lowly humans can see that would be impossible.

Without satan or the demons being there, who would have been there to tempt adam and eve, who would be here in our times to tempt us, draw us away from God? God said he wanted a world with free will…well free will means there must be some other alternative to God.

I think the story of the fall is just that…a story, so we can better relate to it, its much easier to understand the story than to try to comprehend an all powerful God ‘engineering’ everything with extreme precision.

So your are saying that God was mainly responsible for evil to happen for the first time?

 

[DCNBILL]

Allowing the sin happen for sake of redemption? I don’t think so.

It seems that God does.

 

[o_mlly]

So your are saying that God was mainly responsible for evil to happen for the first time?

Your comment suggests you have yet to father and raise boys through their teenage years.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Why do people today, still read material designed for the intellect of man from 2000 years ago?

God has revealed Himself more recently to appeal to today’s human thinking and intellect.

It baffles me that we are trying to “understand” these things from Genesis when the only relevance it has today is that of “human beings sometimes do the wrong thing”. That’s the only relevance it has, nothing more and nothing less.

Those who choose to live their lives by teachings that are more than 2000 years old can happily do so. In the meantime, it would be of great merit if those who see through these ancient teachings find means by which we can apply more modern thinking to the current spiritual condition of the individual the community and it’s institutions.

.

Some things don’t change. Murder was murder 2000 years ago, and it’s still murder today. Theft was theft 2000 years ago, and it’s still theft today.

One plus one makes two was true 2000 years ago, and it’s still true today.

God doesn’t change. Society might change, not always for the better, but God doesn’t change.

If He indicated there was a problem with the human race 2000 years ago, so much so that the human race crucified Him in person, then you can bet your bottom dollar that what He thinks of the human race hasn’t changed either.

If he used Scripture to get that point through 2000 years ago, He will still use Scripture today. If He declared the Church would never cease to exist 2000 years ago, and that the proud gates of Hell will never prevail against it, then it will continue, and has continued ever since.

Some things don’t change. The moral laws are one of them. If we break them, we might think we’ve gotten away with, but on the day of our death and judgement, we’ll learn they’re going to break us, just a as a deluded man might think he can defy gravity and step off a cliff, only to find a shattering end on the rocks below.

The law of gravity hasn’t changed in 2000 years either, and it’s just as dangerous to ignore it now as it was back then.

 

[Wesrock]

So your are saying that God was mainly responsible for evil to happen for the first time?

I disagree with the post you were responding to, at least so far is it implied we needed Satan as an alternative to God. The alternative to God is a rejection of God. We don’t need another external being to turn to. The sin of Adam wasn’t worshipping Satan; it was worshipping himself (so to speak). Adam may have been tempted by Satan, but as Jesus says, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.” (Mark 7: 14-15)

It was not Satan or his words that defiled Man, though he did assist. It was the pride of Man; the free choice of himself over God. And even without Satan, the Fall still would have been possible.

 

[Bahman]

Catechism

324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Rom 5:20).

The angels were not in heaven when they sinned. (See No. 40 below)

Baltimore Catechism

1. Which are the chief creatures of God?
   The chief creatures of God are angels and men.

Thou hast made him a little less than the angels; thou hast crowned him with glory and honor; and thou hast set him over the works of thy hands. (Psalm 8:6-7)

1. What are angels?
   Angels are created spirits, without bodies, having understanding and free will.

Thousands and thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before him. (Daniel 7:10)

1. What gifts did God bestow on the angels when He created them?
   When God created the angels He bestowed on them great wisdom, power, and holiness.

O ye angels of the Lord, bless the Lord. (Daniel 3:58)

1. Did all the angels remain faithful to God?
   Not all the angels remained faithful to God; some of them sinned.

And there was a battle in heaven; Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any more in heaven. (Apocalypse 12:7)

1. What happened to the angels who remained faithful to God?
   The angels who remained faithful to God entered into the eternal happiness of heaven, and these are called good angels.

See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you, their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)

Catechism

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265/

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

Could you please offer your opinion which could be the result what you have read somewhere instead of simple quoting? It is really hard to follow you.

 

[Bahman]

Your comment suggests you have yet to father and raise boys through their teenage years.

I was a teenage boy.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning!

Yes I understand that Jesus was explaining that a person born with a physical disability did not sin nor did the parents, but it is pretty much the opposite when we say that the first two ever humans did sin and caused the fall of the human race, which inflicts some people with physical disabilities and all with a spiritual brokenness.

This is a really interesting point, Simpleas. I had never thought of Jesus’ answer as an argument against original sin, but yes, it is. Now, there are plenty of other places in the Gospel that indicate something different. For example:

…but as Jesus says, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.” (Mark 7: 14-15)
…

This indicates that man can be “defiled”, which means that we somehow bring some kind of negative upon ourselves, which supports the idea of original sin.

Does this indicate that there are actually two God-spells, that there are two images of God presented? That there are two images of Man presented?

 

[Bahman]

I disagree with the post you were responding to, at least so far is it implied we needed Satan as an alternative to God. The alternative to God is a rejection of God. We don’t need another external being to turn to. The sin of Adam wasn’t worshipping Satan; it was worshipping himself (so to speak). Adam may have been tempted by Satan, but as Jesus says, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.” (Mark 7: 14-15)

It was not Satan or his words that defiled Man, though he did assist. It was the pride of Man; the free choice of himself over God. And even without Satan, the Fall still would have been possible.

What about removing the tree form the garden? We could have a happy life in the garden with God.

 

[OneSheep]

I was a teenage boy.

Hi Bahman,

Did that teenage boy grow up to be a man who loves challenging people’s beliefs?

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning!

Yes I understand that Jesus was explaining that a person born with a physical disability did not sin nor did the parents, but it is pretty much the opposite when we say that the first two ever humans did sin and caused the fall of the human race, which inflicts some people with physical disabilities and all with a spiritual brokenness.

This is a really interesting point, Simpleas. I had never thought of Jesus’ answer as an argument against original sin, but yes, it is. Now, there are plenty of other places in the Gospel that indicate something different. For example:

…but as Jesus says, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.” (Mark 7: 14-15)
…

This indicates that man can be “defiled”, which means that we somehow bring some kind of negative upon ourselves, which supports the idea of original sin.

Does this indicate that there are actually two God-spells, that there are two images of God presented? That there are two images of Man presented?

 

[Bahman]

Hi Bahman,

Did that teenage boy grow up to be a man who loves challenging people’s beliefs?

Yes.

But seriously it is a good way of learning things which we need.

 

[Wesrock]

What about removing the tree form the garden? We could have a happy life in the garden with God.

I don’t subscribe to the idea of a literal tree or fruit. That said, let’s say there was. Let’s say God put it there. Let’s say God knew what would happen. Do you claim to be wiser and to know as much or more than an omnipotent, omniscient being who is the the uncaused cause of everything? Are you able to point to God and, not just cry out, “I don’t understand!”, but go so far as to declare, “There is no possible good reason! I know better!”

???

 

[GEddie]

Really??? No Adam and Eve, No us. No original sin, No need for Jesus to redeem people who don’t actually exist. So what do you think this is all about ? The “smarter” we get, it seems we know more than God. I TRUST HIM! God Bless, Memaw

I have no formal training in genes and so am unequal to the question of why there could or couldn’t be two original humans, so I’m getting out of this debate, and trusting the Church, who says there were.

Sayonara, hasta la vista, Cinco de Mayo, and ICXC NIKA