The myth of Adam and Eve

[Gorgias]

Bahman:

That is a rational choice too.

But I am going to have to bow out of conversation with you here.

I can’t even.

Someone tells his daughter that it’s a rational choice to decide to please her opiate receptors with heroin… and anyone within hearing distance will know that this person is not using all of his rational faculties.

Hmm…

Could we make the claim that it is a “use of all of [one’s] rational faculties”… but a flawed one? There is an exercise of rationality to it (“if I do this, then I achieve that…”), but that rationality is short-sighted and in error. Still rational, but simply incorrect.

 

[Bahman]

Catechism
1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.

There are many facts that we make priority list: (1) curiosity, (2) temptation, (3) reason, etc. We then pick up the top option in our lists.

 

[Bahman]

LOL!

I am sorry.

But I am going to have to bow out of conversation with you here.

I can’t even.

Someone tells his daughter that it’s a rational choice to decide to please her opiate receptors with heroin… and anyone within hearing distance will know that this person is not using all of his rational faculties.

(But, of course, he is certainly free to tell her this. Because of his…free will. And she is certainly free to consider this…and choose to accept it as mentally sound advice or reject it as absurd…in fact, she is even free to know that his assertion is laughably ludicrous, but to try the heroin anyway…because of her…

free will.)

With rational I mean that we always pick up the top option in our priority list. Why a person try heroin, s/he is just very curious, etc.

 

[Vico]

There are many facts that we make priority list: (1) curiosity, (2) temptation, (3) reason, etc. We then pick up the top option in our lists.

Yet if it is a sin, the decision to do it, based upon curiosity, temptation, or reasons given (explanation, or justification) is contrary to reason, because, as it is shown in the Catechism “It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.”.

 

[Bahman]

This is not an uncommon reaction from people who are ignorant about the science of addiction. It may start out with a free will choice, but it certainly ceases to remain one.

We do try such a substance because we are curious, etc.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Why a person try heroin, s/he is just very curious, etc.

This is funny and sort of cute in its naïveté.

The way it works is that when one objectifies people, seeing them as wiring, their relationship with the world as photonic information transfer and their behaviour as a determined set of responses related to the hardware, well that is all what one will see - objects performing as is their determined nature. Garbage in and garbage out.

Now, this can be helpful where one wants to survive and prosper, to know whom one can use or should avoid, it does nothing to deepen intimacy. But then intimacy and love leave one open to hurt.

One choice we have is in how we approach the world and our neighbour, the sort of relationship we choose to foster. Will it be loving or at a distance.

It definitely feels safer to sit in front of a computer screen than to hang out with junkies, but in the long run probably isn’t. Life is to be lived, not figured out. All one will be left with are images in one’s mind. That’s my :twocents: for what they’re worth.

 

[Bahman]

Good Morning!

I NEED to?

Well, we sort of covered this already. God is not a puppeteer. Remember what I said about hitting the “create” button? Well, God saw, he knew that we would make poor choices and suffer, but that we would learn from our choices. He saw something good to come out of the whole of it, and He hit the button.

Doesn’t it all boil down to the last question, “how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?” We started to delve into that, and I shared my thoughts in my last post to you. No, we don’t have all the answers, but much of the problems between humans are because we are born ignorant yet make choices, we have free will.

I know it is hard to get our heads around this, but God has His plan, but we have our own plans too, not controlled by God. Do we take our life, our world, and make a better place? If we are active in doing that, we come to see the world in a more positive way. What about you, Bahman, have you “grabbed the bull by the horns”, or have you remained a victim? We all have the opportunity to be victims, right?

We can know God in relationship(s).

If you want a more specific answer on one of those, please let me know. Thank you.

So we are back to the question I raised before: Could God create a better universe? Of course He could.

 

[Bahman]

Hmm…

Could we make the claim that it is a “use of all of [one’s] rational faculties”… but a flawed one? There is an exercise of rationality to it (“if I do this, then I achieve that…”), but that rationality is short-sighted and in error. Still rational, but simply incorrect.

Yes, you get what I meant.

 

[Aloysium]

So we are back to the question I raised before: Could God create a better universe? Of course He could.

This is a clear sign of being caught in illusion. One need simply sit and one will ultimately see the wonder that is existence. If you want to stay there, it is a different matter because that vision belongs to God. One has to give oneself to Him to become one’s true self and know life eternal, Christ-like.

 

[Bahman]

Yet if it is a sin, the decision to do it, based upon curiosity, temptation, or reasons given (explanation, or justification) is contrary to reason, because, as it is shown in the Catechism “It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.”.

This topic started from a post about free will is an illusion. This has been discussed in full details in another thread.

 

[Bahman]

This is a clear sign of being caught in illusion. One need simply sit and one will ultimately see the wonder that is existence. If you want to stay there, it is a different matter because that vision belongs to God. One has to give oneself to Him to become one’s true self and know life eternal, Christ-like.

I don’t understand how your post is related to my comment. Couldn’t God create a better world for us?

 

[SilverShadow22]

Couldn’t God create a better world for us?

You fail to consider the possibility that He did.

To summarize the great G. K. Chesterton:

God wrote a perfect play and gave it over to a fallible cast and crew.

So… If the producer is stealing from the production funds, and the casting director doesn’t know how to find talent, and the actors refuse to learn their lines, and the set manager doesn’t follow the blueprints, and the costumer is lazy, and the director doesn’t show up…

You’d really blame the writer for the result? The result of such epic mismanagement would be a truly terrible play - but you can’t judge the writer if the play was never carried out as he intended.

You may say he should have chosen a better cast and crew, but that doesn’t really stand up, because there’s no such thing as a perfect cast or crew. The difference between a puppet show and a good play is the fact that the puppets are forced to perform and the actors perform from the heart - from their choice. There is more risk, because the actors could have a bad day and do badly - but when the actors throw themselves into the story, the result is truly epic.

This world is not a puppet show. We’re on stage, and every act counts.

 

[OneSheep]

So we are back to the question I raised before: Could God create a better universe? Of course He could.

Good Morning,

Well, I could only say that from a position of omniscience, which I do not have.

I hope that I have communicated to you that there is nothing to be gained by wallowing in complaint. I am not trying to be pushy about it, though, there is a time for wallowing.

One of the phrases that has guided my own approach is “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.” It is a Truth, is it not? It is the answer to apathy, I put the energy of complaint into trying to make a positive difference. Questions like “what is your vision?” help. What is your vision? (Did I already ask that?)

Are you part of the solution? If so, in what way?

And here’s another one: Are we actually helping, or are we attacking windmills?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I don’t understand how your post is related to my comment. Couldn’t God create a better world for us?

Evidently you think you could have created a better world than God did.

So what would your world look like as opposed to God’s?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

We do try such a substance because we are curious, etc.

But what stops a person’s curiosity? For example, you might be curious to try meth or heroin, but you know it can lead to a horrible addition and mental and physical breakdown. So unless you lived in a vacuum, most people, no matter how curious, wouldn’t try these drugs.

Why Adam and Eve didn’t stop to consider the consequences is because they were seduced by the evil serpent. Likewise a young person can be seduced into trying drugs by evil friends and pushers.

 

[davidv]

But what stops a person’s curiosity? For example, you might be curious to try meth or heroin, but you know it can lead to a horrible addition and mental and physical breakdown. So unless you lived in a vacuum, most people, no matter how curious, wouldn’t try these drugs.

Why Adam and Eve didn’t stop to consider the consequences is because they were seduced by the evil serpent. Likewise a young person can be seduced into trying drugs by evil friends and pushers.

Seduced, or not, they were, and we are, free to resist temptation, whether that temptation comes externally, or as a consequence of original sin, internally. The “devil made me do it” is a false claim.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Seduced, or not, they were, and we are, free to resist temptation, whether that temptation comes externally, or as a consequence of original sin, internally. The “devil made me do it” is a false claim.

Yes, We all have free will. I do think at certain times in one’s life people are more easily influenced by their peers and “friends” though. Especially young people. Although there is no excuse for it, pressure is involved. That is why and when so many go down the wrong paths of life. Some get out okay, but many are damned forever.

 

[Aloysium]

I don’t understand how your post is related to my comment. Couldn’t God create a better world for us?

Its goes something like this: The entire universe comes into existence through an act of ongoing love. At the foundation of our relationship with God, reflecting His nature, all is infinite beauty and joy. All is Life, where one finally knows Truth. That is heaven, a view of the cosmos from God’s loving perspective, a view, we forsake when we choose ourselves and return to when we give of ourselves. Love sees the perfection in all that is. For the most part, we are so lost that we have forgotten this, our eternal address. Where we are in relation to the Ground of our being is the reality of Adam, ontologically here and now as ourselves, and who in time was the earthly father of all humanity.

 

[Aloysium]

Just a few more thoughts:

Where we all in Adam are fallen, in Christ we are reborn to a life in communion with God.

And, to clarify for those who hear cat whiskers and cuddly teddy bears at the end of the rainbow, what is meant by love has to do with courage, sacrifice and overcoming through surrender to God’s will.

 

[Vico]

This topic started from a post about free will is an illusion. This has been discussed in full details in another thread.

Of course, you did not respond to my last post there:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13814645&postcount=105