The myth of Adam and Eve

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SilverShadow22 said:
This may be hard to say correctly, but I’ll just go for it.

Why don’t we read books and watch movies where everything goes right and everyone is perfectly happy?

Because it is BORING.

Heroes are not born of the easy life. Heroes are born of trial and struggle. They become more admirable the more they have to overcome.

DO NOT take from this that God is a cruel author who enjoys throwing tribulation at his characters. My point is, that without going through a difficult circumstance… There are no heroes OR villains. If we’re never tested, we’ll never know who we are.

A perfect existence by definition gives us no choice. How is there a choice when we were never given more than one option? How noble is a person who never stole, when they never had the slightest need for anything? It’s when they’re desperate that we admire them for their virtue in NOT stealing.
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We don’t need to be hero. We just need to be happy.
 
OneSheep said:
Well, we have war and conflict because we have an innate desire for territory, and we are also compelled by our nature to want what others have. In addition, we are compelled by our nature to punish what we see as wrongdoing. It’s all innate, right?

So, for starters, we can wish God would have given us a world with unlimited resources, right? Do you agree?
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Yes, I agree. But why God didn’t give us this world at the beginning.
 
o_mlly said:
We believe God created the angels absent the Beatific Vision. In the trial, the angels did not know God completely.
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So why God didn’t present Angels with beatific vision so all of them would be in Heaven?
o_mlly said:
We believe one can only be a saint if they can also be a sinner.

Shakespeare could have had King Lear take a sedative after Act I but then where would be the drama? God’s play is still in progress. Hold the reviews until His last act is completed.
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I just don’t like God’s play. It is boring and it is full of suffering.
 
Bahman said:
We don’t need to be hero. We just need to be happy.
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I disagree. Pure earthly happiness is boring. It’s why I can’t sit in the sun all day every day, snuggling my cat. It makes me happy, but starts to bore me after a few hours. Overcoming trial and solving problems is what gives us our personalities.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
I disagree. Pure earthly happiness is boring. It’s why I can’t sit in the sun all day every day, snuggling my cat. It makes me happy, but starts to bore me after a few hours. Overcoming trial and solving problems is what gives us our personalities.
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So you agree that eternal life becomes boring!
 
Bahman said:
Yes, I agree. But why God didn’t give us this world at the beginning.
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Many Christians would argue that we did have that world in the beginning, but because we misbehaved that world was taken away. This is the God who gives and then takes away, which definitely compromises His benevolence since He created us in the first place.

I know His benevolence because of what I know in contemplation, prayer, and experience of the natural world. It is a knowing that comes from within, but guided by doctrine. Scripture is Good News. If God in scripture comes across as less loving than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss: the translation, the interpretation, the use of vocabulary, something is not being expressed or received as intended. I do not ascribe to a literal interpretation of scripture.

Anyway, it is obvious that we have not been given unlimited resources and that we must nurture and share what we have been graciously given. Does this lack of resource help “force” the human to co-create Himself? Compassion and value are part of our nature, and we have learned to appreciate the Earth and what we can do to harm or protect. Can we be so self-centered to think that the limitation of resource is all part of creating a more compassionate human race?

Well, maybe. I don’t know. I’m open to other ideas, Bahman, you bring forth a very difficult question. I have another difficult question, which is a corollary: “Why do we learn so slowly?”. You know, it seems like we are learning faster now, though. Is creation speeding up?
 
Bahman said:
So you agree that eternal life becomes boring!
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No, pure EARTHLY pleasure becomes boring.

I may not understand how eternal heavenly bliss manages not to become redundant or boring, but I believe it’s possible, and I trust God to make it so.
 
OneSheep said:
Code: 
Many Christians would argue that we *did* have that world in the beginning, but because we misbehaved that world was taken away.  This is the God who gives and then takes away, which definitely compromises His benevolence since He created us in the first place.
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You have previously indicated that you do not espouse the Catholic position that the scripture is the inspired and inerrant Word of God, but rather, laced through with human projections. You seem to be identifying one of those projections here.

Your interpretation represents a Humanistic point of view - judging the nature of God using human nature as a standard.
OneSheep said:
Code: 
  I know His benevolence because of what I know in contemplation, prayer, and experience of the natural world.
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Indeed, it has been pointed out by other Catholics at CAF that your own private revelations exceed even those approved by the Church (was it Fatima?), and the Bishops and Doctors of the Church. Your “knowing” of HIs benevolence is quite admirable!
OneSheep said:
Code: 
It is a knowing that comes from within, but guided by doctrine.
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Yes, indeed. The Gospel of One Sheep!
OneSheep said:
Code: 
   If God in scripture comes across as less loving than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss: the translation, the interpretation, the use of vocabulary, something is not being expressed or received as intended.
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A truly Humanistic perspective, using human love, and human relationships to evaluate God. 👍
OneSheep said:
Code: 
I do not ascribe to a literal interpretation of scripture.
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I should think not! that would be too Catholic,and it would shoot holes in a great deal of OS theophilosophy. 😉
 
OneSheep said:
Many Christians would argue that we did have that world in the beginning, but because we misbehaved that world was taken away. This is the God who gives and then takes away, which definitely compromises His benevolence since He created us in the first place…
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Then you need to answer my question in OP.
 
Bahman said:
That is a rational choice too. Our pleasure is very important in making priority list that we choose from.
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Catechism
1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.
 
Bahman said:
That is a rational choice too.
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LOL!

I am sorry.

But I am going to have to bow out of conversation with you here.

I can’t even.

Someone tells his daughter that it’s a rational choice to decide to please her opiate receptors with heroin… and anyone within hearing distance will know that this person is not using all of his rational faculties.

(But, of course, he is certainly free to tell her this. Because of his…free will. And she is certainly free to consider this…and choose to accept it as mentally sound advice or reject it as absurd…in fact, she is even free to know that his assertion is laughably ludicrous, but to try the heroin anyway…because of her…

free will.)
 
Bahman said:
That is a rational choice too. Our pleasure is very important in making priority list that we choose from.
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This is not an uncommon reaction from people who are ignorant about the science of addiction. It may start out with a free will choice, but it certainly ceases to remain one.
 
guanophore said:
This is not an uncommon reaction from people who are ignorant about the science of addiction. It may start out with a free will choice, but it certainly ceases to remain one.
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Oh, yes. We are not talking about what happens once one is in the extremis of this horrible addiction.

We are talking about when one considers whether one should engage in this activity, initially.
 
Good Morning!
Bahman said:
Then you need to answer my question in OP.
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I NEED to? 🙂
Bahman said:
Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:
  1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
  2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
  3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?
Your thought?
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Well, we sort of covered this already. God is not a puppeteer. Remember what I said about hitting the “create” button? Well, God saw, he knew that we would make poor choices and suffer, but that we would learn from our choices. He saw something good to come out of the whole of it, and He hit the button.

Doesn’t it all boil down to the last question, “how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?” We started to delve into that, and I shared my thoughts in my last post to you. No, we don’t have all the answers, but much of the problems between humans are because we are born ignorant yet make choices, we have free will.

I know it is hard to get our heads around this, but God has His plan, but we have our own plans too, not controlled by God. Do we take our life, our world, and make a better place? If we are active in doing that, we come to see the world in a more positive way. What about you, Bahman, have you “grabbed the bull by the horns”, or have you remained a victim? We all have the opportunity to be victims, right?

We can know God in relationship(s).

If you want a more specific answer on one of those, please let me know. Thank you.
 
Bahman said:
That is a rational choice too. Our pleasure is very important in making priority list that we choose from.
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Bahman, the fact that the choice came from a rational being does not make it rational.

‘Rational’ describes the ability of a being, yes, but does not guarantee the ability will be used.

We are capable of acting like lower animates. Animals see only the immediate good and cannot reason through anything other than immediate consequence.

An animal, faced with an immediate pleasure relatable to a drug high, will take it. It can see no consequence other than immediate impulse fulfillment, because it has no rationality.

When a human chooses instant gratification and ignores natural consequence, they operate on the level of an animal. A lower state. As if they had no rationality at all.

Thus, when we describe such a poor choice, we call it ‘irrational’ because it occurred without the benefit of the higher functions of reason.

We do not call it irrational because we are saying the being does not possess rationality, but we call it irrational because rationality was not used to make the choice. They suspended rationality in order to make a very poor choice.
 
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