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PRmerger
Guest
Here is a perfect example of my free will: I freely choose this decision: I am not going to look at your thread, no matter how much you employ your mental faculties to compel me to do so.
QED
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QED
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PRmerger
Guest
Incidentally “We are rational being deciding on a situation based on prioritized options” equals…
wait for it…
wait for it…
nothing more and nothing less than…
a definition of…
FREE WILL.
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Vico
Guest
God enables man to have free will, which would not be so if he behaved only as an animal.
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LethalMouse
Guest
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Bahman
Guest
So this is your argument?
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Bahman
Guest
We are rational being with ability to prioritize options in a situation. There is no room for freedom when we are rational.
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SilverShadow22
Guest
Most people are not logical while making decisions. One could argue that logic frees you - you use the best option, not the one that feels good in the moment.
Logic, rightly ordered, results in the good.
Basically, virtue. Virtue is logical. It is not PURELY logical, as it does consider something outside of itself, but it is logical.
We are most free when we choose what is good, because we know it is good.
Bahman, you have just described the freest of free will. Just because you choose to impose rules on your own decisions, does not mean you don’t have free will - it means you had the free will to impose logic on your own free will.
Logic, rightly ordered, results in the good.
Basically, virtue. Virtue is logical. It is not PURELY logical, as it does consider something outside of itself, but it is logical.
We are most free when we choose what is good, because we know it is good.
Bahman, you have just described the freest of free will. Just because you choose to impose rules on your own decisions, does not mean you don’t have free will - it means you had the free will to impose logic on your own free will.
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LethalMouse
Guest
Prioritues are the choice… you see them as “not free will” because you think the priorities are sort of standard. But this is not the case. Martyrdom vs self preservation etc…
If you suppose self preservation IS the only priority then you see all choices locked within this confine. So I can half see how you think operating within priorities is not persay “free will” but when you factor in an option for God, then you have a choice of what priorities one has…
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PRmerger
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
I cannot help but be amused that in an attempt to discredit free will, a concession to one’s belief in free will has actually been professed.
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simpleas
Guest
I’d never heard of Joseph Campbell until this, and googling his name, I read he was brought up Catholic, and I now find myself listening to an audiobook by him titled ‘The Hero with a thousand faces’
I’ve listened to the first 2 hours, very interesting about myths, some great stories…
Here is the link if anyone is interested.
youtube.com/watch?v=n15q6bijycQ
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OneSheep
Guest
Ah, you’re a fifth quarter quarterback!
So, how would you have created a better universe? I love these questions.
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Vico
Guest
What makes a rational human person is not our physical brains, but the spiritual rational soul that exists apart from the body. The influence of supernatural grace on our soul makes us able to overcome temptation, we are no longer slaves to sinful behavior. This is the free will to choose good over evil. Supernatural is beyond natural so it is not something that we are born with.
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OneSheep
Guest
A little story:
There was a ranch I used to visit, where the fellow who lived there had a half-wolf dog. This dog absolutely loved chasing my pickup, barking up a storm. It also wanted to follow its master, generally speaking.
It so happened that one day, I drove away from the ranch at the same its master walked away from the buildings. The dog, “Lobo” was torn; it looked towards its master, looked toward me (I was looking in my rear-view mirror, because I rather enjoyed the chase), looked at its master again, and within all the workings of its limited mind, it freely chose to follow its master.
It behooves one, when one has the opportunity, to take a sheep by the face and to look into its eyes. There is a “knowing” to appreciate here, that this animal is of so little intelligence. Sheep are so lovable, but so incredibly stupid. It has moved me more than once when looking a sheep in the eyes in such a way, to get the impression that such a meeting of eyes is probably not much different than God looking into the eyes of an ordinary human.
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guanophore
Guest
Do you think that God does not see the image of Himself, in which we are created? Or by “ordinary” do you mean that without that we have only an animal nature?
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Bradski
Guest
Do not confuse the fact that you have options with the existence of free will. Some people think that not having free will means only having one option, which is not the case. Not having free will means that you always pick the same option in identical circumstances.
Let’s say you have to decide whether to reply to this or not. You make a decision accordingly and start a reply. And you insist in your reply that you made the decision with free will. If that were to be the case, then in identical circumstances, you would choose NOT to reply. It is nonsensical to maintain that you have free will if you always would make the same choice.
You might say that it is reasonable to always make the same choice if the choices were having a beer or cutting off your leg. But replying to a post…well, you may or you may not.
So what happens if we film you making that choice? Rerun the movie and you make the same one every time. Obviously. Nothing changes. Everything is exactly the same every time. Now we have the ability to go back in time and watch you choose. What happens? Exactly the same. Obviously. The circumstances which dictated your decision are exactly the same each time we watch you make it. It is nonsensical to suggest that we could go back into the past and watch you make a different call each time.
So we watch you make that decision twice. The circumstances each time are exactly the same and you make the same decision twice. If we watch you make that decision just the one time, it will still be the same one as if we watch it a thousand times.
The circumstances dictate what you decide. They dictate your reasoning, they dictate your emotions, they dictate your subconscious, they dictate literally everything about your decision. Repeat those circumstances and you cannot fail to repeat the choice.
Otherwise, what are your decisions based on? If they are arbitrary, then they are not made with free will. A decision to toss a coin appears to be a free will choice (although you would always make it in identical circumstances), but a decision made on a coin toss cannot be said to be made with free will.
This smacks of determinism and I appreciate that. It also calls into question culpability and I appreciate that as well.
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Bahman
Guest
We are all logical agents. Our principles that we make decision by using them are different.
Logic acts like a constraint. It cannot free us.
We are not free when we always choose what is good for us.
Freest! I don’t think so.
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Bahman
Guest
Priorities are list of our choices. We always pick up the top one.
Two different persons can have two different priority list if they are in the same situation.
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Bahman
Guest
Create all people in Heaven.Ah, you’re a fifth quarter quarterback!
So, how would you have created a better universe? I love these questions.
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Bahman
Guest
What makes us rational are our brains. It is there that we memorize and process things.
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