The myth of Adam and Eve

[simpleas]

(1) Sin in Heaven - no such thing. (People on this thread have explained this to you ad nauseam.)

1. The story of Adam and Eve is to show that mankind has free will, and willingly disobeyed a God who provided everything good for them, and that is why we don’t live in paradise today.
2. Why is it obvious that God would not want this to happen?

In my mind, it is good for people to live in a less than perfect world. Otherwise how can we distinguish between good and evil? What would be the point of our existence if everything was easy and perfect? Why would we even strive to do anything in our lives, or hope for an afterlife? Life would be meaningless.

So A&E didn’t have freewill before they ate from the tree? This confuses me, they would have had freewill in order to act or not against the command of God. Seems the story tells of Man making his own free choice as given by God.

Actually I’m thinking some people do live in a sort of paradise, death is just part of life.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning!

That is not possible if there is one truth since truth is the set of consistent counterfactuals.

That would be the case, I think, if Truth was all a “head thing”. I look at Truth as more multi-dimensional, i.e. “Truth is Love”. It is hard to fully express Love in words and counterfactuals.

OneSheep:

1. The human resents disobedience. Especially in the tribal situation, disobedience can be dangerous.

Bahman:

I don’t understand you.

Sorry about that. I will take that as a request for clarification, with your permission. Think back to our evolutionary history. We functioned as tribes, we had to be obedient to an authority when necessary. The authority may be centralized or de-centralized, but it is/was still an authority. The obedience may be as simple as “don’t hurt others” or as complex as “we must remain in keeping with the gods of our own tribal identity”.

Does that clarify? If not, please ask a question. Also, feel free to argue against that.

OneSheep:

1. The human doubts authority, even when the authority is greatly valued. When we do not fully appreciate/understand the consequences of our actions, we test the limits. “That fruit looks so good to eat, why would it be there if God did not want us to eat it?” etc. See no. 3 for the mechanism.

Bahman:

Curiosity is good. That is how we learn things.

Yes, curiosity is a God-given trait. This is also something revealed in the story. Eve was curious even before “the Fall”.

OneSheep:

1. Desire blinds us. We do what we know is wrong when we desire greatly. Eating the fruit “should have been” unscionable. Desire for knowledge, power, etc. (any strong desire) overrides the conscience itself, even though it “shouldn’t”.

Bahman:

We move and do things for our desires. Of course desire could blind us so we have to balance our desires. We can do that because we are rational beings.

Yes we are called to balance our desires, but such balance is not what the story is about, right? The story shows how a Good Human still has his conscience overridden by desire. It is real and happens, right?

OneSheep:

1. The human is not always cognizant of the ever-loving presence of God. Notice: all the action happened when God was mysteriously not looking.

Bahman:

I don’t understand you.

Hmmm. I’m not sure how to clarify that one without a specific question. Feel free to ask one, or let it go. I am saying that the story shows that we are more likely to behave when someone is watching, especially someone we love.

OneSheep:

1. The human conscience, as the first Voice from Within we hear (and is equated with God), loves us conditionally. It sets up conditions of acceptance (i.e. obedience), and when we violate them, we are subject to internal punishment (guilt) and we project that God is punishing us. Affiliation motivates the human. When we misbehave, we can cause rifts in the tribe. We naturally resent misbehavior, it is an evolved mechanism.

Bahman:

Are you saying that God’s love is conditional? Moreover I don’t think that eternal punishment is right since our sins have limited impact.

I am saying that because of the way our conscience works, it is very natural to think that God loves us conditionally. In order to discover otherwise, the person would have to experience unconditional love in some way, which is contrary to the way our conscience normally operates. (i.e., “If you are nice I will love you, and will not if you are not”). A deeper awareness would encounter a God who loves without condition.

I don’t see an unconditionally loving God in favor of “eternal punishment” for anyone.

I don’t think if obedience is a good thing when we are dealing with a relationship.

Isn’t fidelity an obedience? Isn’t fulfillment of a promise of any kind? Obedience has it place. Absolute authority, however, has a tendency to be counter-productive. Is that your meaning?

So, what do you think? Doesn’t the story/myth say something true about human nature? We learn something about the human in the writing, especially when we consider the probable/possible feelings of the human who wrote the story. Is there part of it you can’t relate to? Can you put yourself in the place of each of the characters in the story?

Thanks.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So A&E didn’t have freewill before they ate from the tree? This confuses me, they would have had freewill in order to act or not against the command of God. Seems the story tells of Man making his own free choice as given by God.

Actually I’m thinking some people do live in a sort of paradise, death is just part of life.

I didn’t say that. They had free will. Why do you think I said they didn’t.

Nobody lives in paradise. Everyone has troubles. That’s just the case of “the grass is greener on the other side”. Who do you think lives in paradise?

 

[simpleas]

I didn’t say that. They had free will. Why do you think I said they didn’t.

Nobody lives in paradise. Everyone has troubles. That’s just the case of “the grass is greener on the other side”. Who do you think lives in paradise?

I think it would depend on what a person thinks paradise is. The garden does sound like a paradise, but then it would with only two people in it, yet it had the tree of good and evil sitting right in the middle.

People can live in a sort of paradise, tribes do, people that live off the grid do. This doesn’t mean they don’t get ill or never die, but their way of living is peaceful. No 9-5 jobs, or working ones life away to pay bills that never end.
Man…A&E never had any of these worries, one would think they would have been greatful.

 

[PRmerger]

So you have full control on your feelings!? So you are a robot who programs her feelings!

I have control of my decisions.

And, of course, love is a decision. Not a feeling.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I have control of my decisions.

And, of course, love is a decision. Not a feeling.

Love isn’t a feeling? Whoa.

 

[Bahman]

True merit brings a greater state: increase of grace eternal life, attainment of that eternal life, and an increase in glory. Merit also means the possibility of demerit.

Glory is present as a result of the real possibility of Hell, through demerit and forfeiture of all merits, or Heaven, through cooperation with grace.

• “He will render to every man according to his works” - Matthew 16:27; cf Romans 2:6 * “Every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor”.- 1 Corinthians 3:8
• “But the just shall live for evermore: and their reward is with the Lord”. - Wisdom 5:16
• “Be not afraid to be justified even to death: for the reward of God continueth for ever” - Ecclus., xviii, 22
• Jesus Christ said: “Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven” - Matthew 5:12

I don’t understand you. All you are saying is that we have to do good work to enter Heaven. All I am saying is that God is Love, with infinite grace and he could forgive our sins simply so He would let all of us in Heaven. The problem is why we have to undergo this intermediate state so called life full of misery and suffering? This doesn’t make any sense to me. It makes sense to you so I cannot help it.

 

[Bahman]

Perhaps. Yet, when I asked whether your perceptions might be mistaken, you told me that this was not the case:

This is where we started, then. I asked whether you could be wrong (in this case, about your perceptions of ‘frameworks’), and you said “that is not possible.”

It’s really easy to argue when your presumption is that you cannot err in your judgment…

All I was saying is that I have found many errors in your system of belief and it is impossible that all of them are wrong.

 

[Bahman]

I’m confused by the way you’ve phrased this.

It seems that you are claiming that ‘nature’ is irrelevant in the discussion of free will. Is that what you’re claiming?

Yes.

If so, then a simple counter-example will dismiss that argument: your claim, then, would say that in the analysis of free will, the difference between the nature of (let’s say) a garden slug and the nature of a human is irrelevant – that is, if humans have free will, then slugs do, too; or, if slugs don’t have free will, then neither do humans.

You don’t need a counter-example. God is cruel if he gave a nature to Angels so they could fall from Heaven while our nature is such that that we could not fall. Is God cruel? Moreover the Heaven will become empty of Angels if they could do sin in Heaven because of their nature.

 

[Bahman]

(1) Sin in Heaven - no such thing. (People on this thread have explained this to you ad nauseam.)

Luke 10:18: And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

1. The story of Adam and Eve is to show that mankind has free will, and willingly disobeyed a God who provided everything good for them, and that is why we don’t live in paradise today.

That is completely illogical story. First you need to answer my question which you didn’t. Second, you think that God is punishing us because of the sin we are not responsible for it. That is cruel of God. That is heresy.

1. Why is it obvious that God would not want this to happen?

Because God is good and He has foreknowledge. He knew that sin would happen but He let it.

In my mind, it is good for people to live in a less than perfect world. Otherwise how can we distinguish between good and evil?

God could teach us what is good and evil in Heaven. He is all powerful.

What would be the point of our existence if everything was easy and perfect?

I don’t understand you. Aren’t you looking to enter to Heaven where everything is easy and perfect? What is the point of this life full of suffering.

Why would we even strive to do anything in our lives, or hope for an afterlife? Life would be meaningless.

Life is meaningless. Heaven is good. Hell is cruel.

 

[PRmerger]

Love isn’t a feeling? Whoa.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[PRmerger]

Love isn’t a feeling? Whoa.

 

[PRmerger]

Love isn’t a feeling? Whoa.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[CHRISTINE77]

http://quotepixel.com/images/quotes/love/quotes-love-is-a-decision_3594-3.png

Nice points, but I still think I FEEL love for others.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Luke 10:18: And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

That is completely illogical story. First you need to answer my question which you didn’t. Second, you think that God is punishing us because of the sin we are not responsible for it. That is cruel of God. That is heresy.

Because God is good and He has foreknowledge. He knew that sin would happen but He let it.

God could teach us what is good and evil in Heaven. He is all powerful.

I don’t understand you. Aren’t you looking to enter to Heaven where everything is easy and perfect? What is the point of this life full of suffering.

Life is meaningless. Heaven is good. Hell is cruel.

Whatever, Bahman, whatever. Have it your way.

 

[Bahman]

Good Morning!

Good morning.

Sorry about that. I will take that as a request for clarification, with your permission. Think back to our evolutionary history. We functioned as tribes, we had to be obedient to an authority when necessary. The authority may be centralized or de-centralized, but it is/was still an authority. The obedience may be as simple as “don’t hurt others” or as complex as “we must remain in keeping with the gods of our own tribal identity”.

Does that clarify? If not, please ask a question. Also, feel free to argue against that.

Obedience is good if the authority is fully knowledgeable otherwise it has a drawback, we will never learn a new thing.

Yes, curiosity is a God-given trait. This is also something revealed in the story. Eve was curious even before “the Fall”.

Why we should punish people for their curiosity? That is what happen in the story.

Yes we are called to balance our desires, but such balance is not what the story is about, right? The story shows how a Good Human still has his conscience overridden by desire. It is real and happens, right?

That is right.

Hmmm. I’m not sure how to clarify that one without a specific question. Feel free to ask one, or let it go. I am saying that the story shows that we are more likely to behave when someone is watching, especially someone we love.

That is correct. But we should do things in our own otherwise we will never get mature.

I am saying that because of the way our conscience works, it is very natural to think that God loves us conditionally. In order to discover otherwise, the person would have to experience unconditional love in some way, which is contrary to the way our conscience normally operates. (i.e., “If you are nice I will love you, and will not if you are not”). A deeper awareness would encounter a God who loves without condition.

I don’t see an unconditionally loving God in favor of “eternal punishment” for anyone.

That I agree.

Isn’t fidelity an obedience? Isn’t fulfillment of a promise of any kind? Obedience has it place. Absolute authority, however, has a tendency to be counter-productive. Is that your meaning?

So, what do you think? Doesn’t the story/myth say something true about human nature? We learn something about the human in the writing, especially when we consider the probable/possible feelings of the human who wrote the story. Is there part of it you can’t relate to? Can you put yourself in the place of each of the characters in the story?

Yes. I think that full obedience is counter-productive.

Thanks.

Thanks.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello Bahman,

Good morning.
Obedience is good if the authority is fully knowledgeable otherwise it has a drawback, we will never learn a new thing.

I think that full obedience is counter-productive.

I suppose that full obedience is counter-productive if it encourages the authority to manipulate, deceive, or persecute. It behooves us to shun “full obedience” for its own sake, agree? when we are talking about human authority?

Why we should punish people for their curiosity? That is what happen in the story.

Well, it would be very difficult to relate to someone who punishes people for their curiosity, I agree. It’s like, why would one resent curiosity?

I think what is being communicated is a resentment towards disobedience, though, which is very human. Or do you always find people who disobey you endearing?

And then look at all the resented attributes projected on Adam and Eve as a cause of their disobedience. “Pride”, “wanting to be like God”, etc. We can learn that these are very typical things that the human condemns in himself: desires for status, power, dominance, etc. Isn’t it true that these are typical resentments that the human has toward his nature?

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman,

Hello.

I suppose that full obedience is counter-productive if it encourages the authority to manipulate, deceive, or persecute. It behooves us to shun “full obedience” for its own sake, agree? when we are talking about human authority?

I agree.

Well, it would be very difficult to relate to someone who punishes people for their curiosity, I agree. It’s like, why would one resent curiosity?

I think what is being communicated is a resentment towards disobedience, though, which is very human. Or do you always find people who disobey you endearing?

And then look at all the resented attributes projected on Adam and Eve as a cause of their disobedience. “Pride”, “wanting to be like God”, etc. We can learn that these are very typical things that the human condemns in himself: desires for status, power, dominance, etc. Isn’t it true that these are typical resentments that the human has toward his nature?

So we are the victim of God’s design if we accept your assessment.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, Bahman, nice to hear from you.

So we are the victim of God’s design if we accept your assessment.

Victims?

You’ve got it, Bahman. Yes, of course! I did not consider that item of Truth.

We humans see ourselves as victims of something, and the human looks for a cause. We see our suffering, we experience our suffering, and we cannot escape the notion that whatever created us had leanings toward cruelty. Fate leads us to depression, fear, despair.

Just “thinking aloud” here… with my fingers again…

In the process of reconciliation with other humans, it behooves us to take responsibility for our own role in creating the discord in the first place. It’s the hardest part, is it not? So look at what we have, we have the human condition, and for all objective consideration it is no fault of our own. We were put here, and we suffer. So, does it not serve a purpose to have a creation story that depicts us as playing a role in our own suffering, such that it is our fault? The story serves the Greater Purpose of Reconciliation, to be able to love our Creator, and life itself. When considering the harsh realities of tribal survival, do you see how vital the story is for the empowerment of the people? After all, the underlying Truth is that we are never abandoned by God even when it really seems not to be the case. Isn’t it the ultimate incarnation that God, on the cross, experiences an abandonment by Himself?

Of course, there are some trade-offs. The biggest trade-off in the creation story is the image of a God who punishes his creation, but we have that corrected in Christ, do we not? And let’s face it, “punishment”, like victimhood, is in the eye of the beholder. Actions have their own natural consequences, then we suffer, and then we learn. The important part is that we learn… albeit slowly…

We can learn through Christ that the answer to victimhood is not necessarily ability to overpower our oppressors (from wherever they come), but through a deeper Reconciliation and through Repentance. And what does that Repentance look like? It means taking a look at what it means to be human and embracing all that we are, seeing our humanity as a gift, every aspect, every capacity, every compulsion. It is through such seeing that we can ultimately Reconcile.

And before I make it sound too much like my mind is far into the clouds (I am doing this while listening to the latest Radiohead album, which is not helping in that regard), I must say that repentance is important at all levels. Of course repentance initially has to be centered on turning from sin, a prayerful relationship rather depends on it.

Are you a victim of the creation story? Or, instead, can you see its beauty? Are we victims of life itself? I am not. Does God want us to be victims, or does He call us to follow Christ, in a daily resurrection from the ashes of our fate?

Oh, I am lost in their newest version of “True love waits”… I cannot see my computer screen…

Peace be with you

 

[LethalMouse]

Hello.

I agree.

So we are the victim of God’s design if we accept your assessment.

Victims… if God will grant us what is often thought of as Heaven, and grant us unbelievable power in a sense, then isn’t it reasonable to “earn” it. If you were a king appointing noblemen, would you not vet them? The main is to eat the fruit to become like God… because you are trying to subvert Him. Why would he then grant you a place at his side? Basically eating the fruit is a suggestion that humans were inclined to try the same rebellion as satan. So we are sent to become humbled and vetted to be God’s noblemen… LOYAL AND WORTHY noblemen.