The myth of Adam and Eve

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Bahman said:
Hi OneSheep,

Yes, we can find the error in our system of belief. Question like what we are? Where we are going? in fact can open our eyes to what is true and what is wrong.
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Good Morning,

I do like to have my eyes opened!

Is it possible that what we see that* appears* to be wrong actually reflects some reality about who we are?

To be specific, given the premise that our emotional state preempts our reasoning, usually without our willing participation (at least initially, absent awareness of such preemption), does the “myth” we are referring to in this thread reveal an underlying Truth about how the human perceives himself? Does it say something about human motivation and our perceptions of the nature/behavior of God/cosmos, which are essentially projections of what we experience as who we are?

Or is that too abstract? Shall I be more specific?
OneSheep said:
Also, what is your vision concerning “oneness” of humanity, a shedding of lines that separate people, is that growth too?
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Bahman said:
I don’t understand this question.
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In other words, does affiliation always follow agreement, and should it? Our affiliation has something to do with relationship with others, like, “who is my familty, my greater family?” Is it an exclusive family, or an inclusive family? If it is an inclusive family, how do we create some sense of belonging, which because of our nature involves some sort of exclusivity? If it is an exclusive family, how do we communicate something deeper about who we are in terms of loving/seeing a unity with/ all people, regardless of the ingroup/outgroup demarcations?

This is a bit off-topic, so feel free to disregard those questions.

Thanks.
 
clem456 said:
His point is this:
you can only know you are in error, if you allow yourself to be subject to the truth.

Yet you claim you are subject only to your own authority and self examination . That is not truth it’s individualism.
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We don’t know the truth. We constantly are exposed to a part of truth so our understanding is full of errors because we don’t know the whole truth. So we can know the truth better by finding and correcting our understanding.
 
Vico said:
Heaven is the place and condition of perfect supernatural happiness, and the happiness is essentially in the immediate vision and love of God, but also in the knowledge, love, and enjoyment of creatures.

There can be no sin with the immediate vision and love of God. Neither man nor the angels had this immediate vision and love of God when they sinned.
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Lucifer fell so we could fall either.
 
OneSheep said:
Good Morning,
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Good Morning
OneSheep said:
I do like to have my eyes opened!

Is it possible that what we see that* appears* to be wrong actually reflects some reality about what is the truth?
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I slightly change your question. Existence of any unresolvable anomaly in a world view indicates that our world view is wrong. We don’t know the truth. What we call the truth is only real when it is anomaly free.
OneSheep said:
To be specific, given the premise that our emotional state preempts our reasoning, usually without our willing participation (at least initially, absent awareness of such preemption), does the “myth” we are referring to in this thread reveal an underlying Truth about how the human perceives himself? Does it say something about human motivation and our perceptions of the nature/behavior of God/cosmos, which are essentially projections of what we experience as who we are?

Or is that too abstract? Shall I be more specific?
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There are stories with underlying teaching value. I don’t think that the myth of Adam and Eve is one of them. What do you think?
 
Bahman said:
I check myself constantly for error. I think that is a good attitude:D
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But, if you’re in error, how can you recognize that fact? I mean, if you get the wrong result for 2+2, then that’s one thing; but, if you have a mistaken understanding or a lack of knowledge, how can you monitor yourself for such a mistake? After all, the only possible answer that could come back is, “nah… i’m right again.” :rolleyes: :sad_yes:
 
Bahman said:
Do you believe in fall of Angels?
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Yes.
Can we sin in Heaven?
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I think the question is “will we sin in heaven”, and the answer is ‘no’.
Do we have free will there?
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Yes, but our free will, in eternity in heaven, will have been perfected, so that we never make a choice against God. It’s a nuanced position that takes a minute to understand, so please don’t just jump to conclusions.

It’s not unlike asking a thought experiment: suppose you love chocolate chip ice cream so much that you’ll always choose it when the opportunity to choose ice cream flavors is offered. So yesterday: chocolate chip. Today: chocolate chip. Tomorrow: chocolate chip. Suppose that each and every time you’re offered the choice, the answer is identical: chocolate chip. Now, here’s the question: does the unchanging answer imply a lack of free will? (Of course not.)

Same thing here: if we do not sin in heaven, does that mean that we don’t have free will? (Of course not; it just means that our free will choices are unwavering in heaven.)
 
Gorgias said:
Yes.

I think the question is “will we sin in heaven”, and the answer is ‘no’.

Yes, but our free will, in eternity in heaven, will have been perfected, so that we never make a choice against God. It’s a nuanced position that takes a minute to understand, so please don’t just jump to conclusions.

It’s not unlike asking a thought experiment: suppose you love chocolate chip ice cream so much that you’ll always choose it when the opportunity to choose ice cream flavors is offered. So yesterday: chocolate chip. Today: chocolate chip. Tomorrow: chocolate chip. Suppose that each and every time you’re offered the choice, the answer is identical: chocolate chip. Now, here’s the question: does the unchanging answer imply a lack of free will? (Of course not.)

Same thing here: if we do not sin in heaven, does that mean that we don’t have free will? (Of course not; it just means that our free will choices are unwavering in heaven.)
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What if you get bored of the same flavour? :rotfl:
 
Bahman said:
Why we are no created in that state of affair?
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The natural state of angels and mankind is without the vision of God. Perception of God is beyond our nature, so to have the perception it must be a supernatural gift. It seems that the reason is that God is not a creature like us.
 
Vico said:
The natural state of angels and mankind is without the vision of God. Perception of God is beyond our nature, so to have the perception it must be a supernatural gift. It seems that the reason is that God is not a creature like us.
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You didn’t answer my question. Why God who is Love did’t create us in best state affair with finest gifts for everyone?
 
Gorgias said:
But, if you’re in error, how can you recognize that fact? I mean, if you get the wrong result for 2+2, then that’s one thing; but, if you have a mistaken understanding or a lack of knowledge, how can you monitor yourself for such a mistake? After all, the only possible answer that could come back is, “nah… i’m right again.” :rolleyes: :sad_yes:
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That is called critical thinking. More you use it better you become.
 
Gorgias said:
Yes.

I think the question is “will we sin in heaven”, and the answer is ‘no’.

Yes, but our free will, in eternity in heaven, will have been perfected, so that we never make a choice against God. It’s a nuanced position that takes a minute to understand, so please don’t just jump to conclusions.

It’s not unlike asking a thought experiment: suppose you love chocolate chip ice cream so much that you’ll always choose it when the opportunity to choose ice cream flavors is offered. So yesterday: chocolate chip. Today: chocolate chip. Tomorrow: chocolate chip. Suppose that each and every time you’re offered the choice, the answer is identical: chocolate chip. Now, here’s the question: does the unchanging answer imply a lack of free will? (Of course not.)

Same thing here: if we do not sin in heaven, does that mean that we don’t have free will? (Of course not; it just means that our free will choices are unwavering in heaven.)
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Angels sinned and fell from Heaven so we could too.
 
Bahman said:
You didn’t answer my question. Why God who is Love did’t create us in best state affair with finest gifts for everyone?
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Greater good comes from it.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308
 
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