The myth of Adam and Eve

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bahman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Gorgias said:
We – meaning humans – cannot “sin in Heaven.” Making that assumption implies that you’re conflating angels with humans; we’re two completely different types of creatures.

The nature of angels is such that they have knowledge and have been in God’s presence since their creation. Yet, they have free will – and their ability to exercise that free will expressed itself in their single decision of whether to obey God or not. Having made that decision, they will continue on in its consequences throughout all eternity (not entirely like saints or the damned, who will continue on in the consequences of their life choices for all eternity). Both humans and angels make a choice (although the choice of humans takes place throughout our entire lives). Both humans and angels reach a point at which their choice is permanent and unchanging.
Click to expand...
Also, this ties in with your post, from Fr. Hardon, S.J.:
**Devil. As understood in the Gospels, the devil is an evil spirit, especially the chief of the rebellious angels. Adorned at his creation with sanctifying grace, he sinned by pride and along with many other angelic beings was denied the beatific vision. His abode is hell and he does not enjoy the benefits of Christ’s Redemption. Yet the devil remains an intelligent spirit, confirmed in will, who is allowed by God to exercise some influence on both living and inanimate creatures. Literally, the word “devil” comes from the Greek diabolos, which means “accuser” or “seducer” or “liar.”
therealpresence.org/archives/Demonology/Demonology_002.htm
 
davidv said:
This statement suggests strong that you have no idea of heaven is, and what it is like. In heaven, our love of God in heaven will always win over any potential desire to sin.
Click to expand...
Angels fell from Heaven because of sin so we could either.
davidv said:
We are given a way out of this supposed slavery. Jesus, the Son of God, beat death, and we are availed of as much grace as needed to overcome temptation.
Click to expand...
Why this grace was not available to Adam and Eve?
davidv said:
That is not how God chose to do it. I trust Him more that you. God will equip us with as much grace as we need to overcome sin.
Click to expand...
Again, why God did not equipped Adam and Eve with enough grace?
davidv said:
Agreed, which why we must acknowledge our sins, repent and turn back to God.
Click to expand...
So you agree that we can fall again and again.
davidv said:
We have a perfect defense against this threat. It is the love of God and neighbor.
Click to expand...
Again, why this love was not available before fall of Angels and human?
 
Gorgias said:
It’s an expression that compares Satan to lightning. Where does lightning come from – the sky, or from God’s abode in heaven? From the sky, of course! So… Jesus is saying that he saw Satan fall. What did that look like? Why, like lightning going from the sky to the earth!

You seem to be misinterpreting it as if Jesus had said “I saw Satan fall from heaven. Like lightning.” 🤷
Click to expand...
Seriously what you said does not make any sense!:confused:
 
Gorgias said:
We – meaning humans – cannot “sin in Heaven.” Making that assumption implies that you’re conflating angels with humans; we’re two completely different types of creatures.

The nature of angels is such that they have knowledge and have been in God’s presence since their creation. Yet, they have free will – and their ability to exercise that free will expressed itself in their single decision of whether to obey God or not. Having made that decision, they will continue on in its consequences throughout all eternity (not entirely like saints or the damned, who will continue on in the consequences of their life choices for all eternity). Both humans and angels make a choice (although the choice of humans takes place throughout our entire lives). Both humans and angels reach a point at which their choice is permanent and unchanging.
Click to expand...
I don’t understand why that should be correct (bold part).
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
So you will never be satisfied with any answers then. You never want to say "Aha, now I get it!’ and have a certain peace and faith in your life. You just want to keep growing and asking endless questions your entire life. Good luck with that, it sounds extremely futile and a little childish.
Click to expand...
We are intellectual beings and the world of knowledge is endless. I of course enjoy when I find a satisfactory answer to my question.
 
PRmerger said:
They were.

They chose not to avail themselves of this Grace
Click to expand...
So what is the point of creation? We will fall again and again because we will be given eternal life. No rest of mind even in Heaven.
PRmerger said:
They did have enough.

They chose, out of their free will.
Click to expand...
So we are dealing with a dilemma because they wouldn’t fall if the grace was enough to prohibit the sin.
 
Bahman said:
So what is the point of creation?
Click to expand...
To manifest the glory of God.
We will fall again and again because we will be given eternal life. No rest of mind even in Heaven.
Click to expand...
I am sorry–this seems to be a nonsequitur. “We will fall again because we will be given eternal life”??

What does that even mean?
So we are dealing with a dilemma because they wouldn’t fall if the grace was enough to prohibit the sin.
Click to expand...
Who says that? :confused:

God’s grace* is* enough.

If your mortgage is $1500 and I give you “enough” to pay for it–$1500-- but you don’t send in the payment, you fall.

#itsyourchoice
 
Bahman said:
Cool, so what would be the state of Heaven after a while? Empty!
Click to expand...
Huh? Sorry, this, too, seems to be a nonsequitur
To choose to reject love? That is nonsense.
Click to expand...
And yet we do it every day, don’t we.

You are married, yes?

Do you not, so many times, choose yourself over your spouse–when you argue, when you hid out in your man cave instead of socializing with her friends, when you skip out on meals with her family…etc etc etc.

(NB: the above are examples only. Look at the bigger picture of the discussion. There is no need to say “I am a gay man and don’t have a wife” or “I love my wife’s family”. Just apply the examples in context).

But, yes, it is “nonsense” or “a little bit of crazy” or “senseless” when we sin.

But sin we do…sadly.
 
PRmerger said:
To manifest the glory of God.
Click to expand...
God does need that.
PRmerger said:
I am sorry–this seems to be a nonsequitur. “We will fall again because we will be given eternal life”??

What does that even mean?
Click to expand...
It is not a non sequitur, because: (1) We will have eternal life, (2) We can sin (we have example of fall even if we are given enough grace). In simple word, everything is matter of time.
PRmerger said:
Who says that? :confused:

God’s grace* is* enough.

If your mortgage is $1500 and I give you “enough” to pay for it–$1500-- but you don’t send in the payment, you fall.

#itsyourchoice
Click to expand...
No rational person would choose that, to choose Hell instead of Heaven.
 
Bahman said:
No rational person would choose that, to choose Hell instead of Heaven.
Click to expand...
Indeed.

Sin makes you stupid.

It’s irrational.

Yet we choose it all the time.

You are very Catholic in your statement above. 👍
 
PRmerger said:
Huh? Sorry, this, too, seems to be a nonsequitur
Click to expand...
It is not non sequitur. First we are talking about Heaven. Second, we have example of falling even when they were given enough grace. We will have eternal life. Conclusion: Everything is matter of time and we eventually sin.
PRmerger said:
And yet we do it every day, don’t we.
Click to expand...
We are talking about Angels in Heaven ,or Adam and Eve in the Garden.
PRmerger said:
You are married, yes?..
Click to expand...
No.
 
Bahman said:
It is not non sequitur. First we are talking about Heaven. Second, we have example of falling even when they were given enough grace. We will have eternal life. Conclusion: Everything is matter of time and we eventually sin.
Click to expand...
Sure. 👍

And just to be clear: there is no time in heaven.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top