The myth of Adam and Eve

[Bahman]

Indeed.

Sin makes you stupid.

It’s irrational.

Yet we choose it all the time.

You are very Catholic in your statement above.

So Adam and Eve, or Lucifer/Satan were stupid? Or maybe we are not smart enough to believe those mythes.

 

[PRmerger]

So Adam and Eve, or Lucifer/Satan were stupid?

Well, yeah.

You don’t think it was stupid what they did?

Or maybe we are not smart enough to believe those mythes.

That sounds like the person who says, “I’m smart enough not to believe the myth of the Holocaust” or “I’m smart enough not to believe the myth that we landed on the moon”.

Do you really think it’s smart to deny reality?

I know I don’t.

 

[clem456]

Lets put fact together to see if a God who is all wise allows this:

1. Fall of angles: It is mentioned that angels fall was because of sin of pride. It however doesn’t mentioned that how one can sin in blessed Heaven. State of mind is the state of love and harmony in haven. How then angels could fall?
2. Fall of Adam and Eve: Fall of Adam and Eve was because of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why God should keep the tree in the garden knowing the fact Adam and Eve would eat it? Moreover why God give access to the garden to Satan knowing the fact that he can manage to tempt Adam and Eve?
3. It is obvious that a God who is all wise wouldn’t allow to this happen. The only option which is available is that all these were part of God plan. But how a God who is all good can allow that evil happen?

Your thought?

The nature of love is to give and receive freely. God allows his creatures free will that we might be free to reciprocate. Love is risky as the creature may freely choose to reject the creator.

 

[Bahman]

No. God is Self Sufficient and needs nothing.

Yes. Because the soul is eternal.

Yes.

Of course.

But your conclusion remains a nonsequitur.

The conclusion dose follow. You have a pool of people in Heaven. You pick up some each day and send them to Hell. Your pool of people would become empty after a while.

 

[PRmerger]

The conclusion dose follow. You have a pool of people in Heaven. You pick up some each day and send them to Hell. Your pool of people would become empty after a while.

What?

Ummm…no. No one in heaven today goes to hell tomorrow.

Once our wills are fixed, they are…fixed.

 

[Bahman]

Sure.

And just to be clear: there is no time in heaven.

There should be time in Heaven because we need to move our new bodies.

 

[PRmerger]

There should be time in Heaven because we need to move our new bodies.

No. There is no time in heaven. It is all occurring at the Eternal Now.

 

[Bahman]

No. There is no time in heaven. It is all occurring at the Eternal Now.

You are not in Heaven now and you will be there after your death. The state of Heaven is subject to change hence Heaven cannot be timeless.

 

[PRmerger]

You are not in Heaven now and you will be there after your death. The state of Heaven is subject to change hence Heaven cannot be timeless.

Again, everything in heaven is the eternal now.

Time is a human construct.

What you are doing is akin to a worm telling another worm, “There can’t be anything like ‘bacteria’ because I’ve never seen that.”

Clearly, within the worm’s limited and very inferior intellect, making a judgement about the world according to his view is rather stupid.

 

[Bahman]

Again, everything in heaven is the eternal now.

Time is a human construct.

What you are doing is akin to a worm telling another worm, “There can’t be anything like ‘bacteria’ because I’ve never seen that.”

Clearly, within the worm’s limited and very inferior intellect, making a judgement about the world according to his view is rather stupid.

Timeless Heaven is off topic so I open a new thread.

 

[Vico]

The conclusion dose follow. You have a pool of people in Heaven. You pick up some each day and send them to Hell. Your pool of people would become empty after a while.

Those in heaven, never leave it. Catholic Encyclopedia states that the Church has decided nothing on this subject of the location of heaven. Also from Catholic Encyclopedia:

In the Holy Bible the term heaven denotes, in the first place, the blue firmament, or the region of the clouds that pass along the sky. Genesis 1:20, speaks of the birds “under the firmament of heaven”. In other passages it denotes the region of the stars that shine in the sky. Furthermore heaven is spoken of as the dwelling of God; for, although God is omnipresent, He manifests Himself in a special manner in the light and grandeur of the firmament. Heaven also is the abode of the angels; for they are constantly with God and see His face. With God in heaven are likewise the souls of the just (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 5:3, 12). In Ephesians 4:8 sq., we are told that Christ conducted to heaven the patriarchs who had been in limbo (limbus patrum). Thus the term heaven has come to designate both the happiness and the abode of just in the next life. The present article treats as heaven in this sense only.

In Holy Scripture it is called:

• the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:3),
• the kingdom of God (Mark 9:46),
• the kingdom of the Father (Matthew 13:43),
• the kingdom of Christ (Luke 22:30),
• the house of the Father (John 14:2),
• city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12),
• the holy place (Hebrews 9:12; D.V. holies),
• paradise (2 Corinthians 12:4),
• life (Matthew 7:14),
• life everlasting (Matthew 19:16),
• the joy of the Lord (Matthew 25:21),
• crown of life (James 1:12),
• crown of justice (2 Timothy 4:8),
• crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4),
• incorruptible crown (1 Corinthians 9:25),
• great reward (Matthew 5:12),
• inheritance of Christ (Ephesians 1:18),
• eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).

Hontheim, J. (1910). Heaven. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

 

[Gorgias]

Seriously what you said does not make any sense!

Let’s try again, then. It seemed that you were making a claim about Satan being in heaven, and in support of that claim, you quoted Jesus (“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven”) in Luke 10:18.

I pointed out that Luke 10:18 doesn’t claim that Satan’s in heaven. Rather, it’s a figure of speech: Jesus says that he has seen Satan fall (as the result of the mission of the 72). He compares it to the way that lightning falls from the sky. It’s not an assertion about Satan in heaven; it’s a description that calls upon something we can identify with: we’ve all seen lightning arc from the sky to the earth, as if it’s falling. That’s what Jesus is saying here. It’s not a discussion of the fall of angels.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

What if your perception of “tons of errors” is itself in error?

That is not possible since I am checking myself with eyes wide open so I can find my error simply and correct myself.

So… what you’re telling us is that you’re incapable of error and possess the kind of hubris that asserts that you and only you are the sole possessor of all truth?

Then yeah… you understand the fall of Lucifer far better than you might realize you do… :sad_yes:

 

[OneSheep]

That is an interesting purpose but I don’t think if it is ultimate purpose. God leaves us in state of suffering and we try to overcome suffering so what then? To me the purpose is to grow endlessly.

Hi Bahman,

I think that if you follow the purpose that I suggested, to end suffering, it really does lead to such endless growth, so it sounds like the purposes are in sinc. After all, we learn, we grow, from suffering too.

Would you also say that “growth” is in a number of directions? For example, what is your vision in terms of outcome in discussion of the question of this thread? Also, what is your vision concerning “oneness” of humanity, a shedding of lines that separate people, is that growth too?

I guess what I am wondering about is a growth of species as a whole, in reference to the microcosm of relationships.

 

[Bahman]

Those in heaven, never leave it.

Why not? Can we do sin? Do we have free will?

 

[Bahman]

Let’s try again, then. It seemed that you were making a claim about Satan being in heaven, and in support of that claim, you quoted Jesus (“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven”) in Luke 10:18.

I pointed out that Luke 10:18 doesn’t claim that Satan’s in heaven. Rather, it’s a figure of speech: Jesus says that he has seen Satan fall (as the result of the mission of the 72). He compares it to the way that lightning falls from the sky. It’s not an assertion about Satan in heaven; it’s a description that calls upon something we can identify with: we’ve all seen lightning arc from the sky to the earth, as if it’s falling. That’s what Jesus is saying here. It’s not a discussion of the fall of angels.

Do you believe in fall of Angels? Can we sin in Heaven? Do we have free will there?

 

[Bahman]

So… what you’re telling us is that you’re incapable of error and possess the kind of hubris that asserts that you and only you are the sole possessor of all truth?

Then yeah… you understand the fall of Lucifer far better than you might realize you do… :sad_yes:

I check myself constantly for error. I think that is a good attitude

 

[Bahman]

Hi Bahman,

Hi OneSheep,

I think that if you follow the purpose that I suggested, to end suffering, it really does lead to such endless growth, so it sounds like the purposes are in sinc. After all, we learn, we grow, from suffering too.

I agree.

Would you also say that “growth” is in a number of directions? For example, what is your vision in terms of outcome in discussion of the question of this thread?

Yes, we can find the error in our system of belief. Question like what we are? Where we are going? in fact can open our eyes to what is true and what is wrong.

Also, what is your vision concerning “oneness” of humanity, a shedding of lines that separate people, is that growth too?

I don’t understand this question.

 

[clem456]

I check myself constantly for error. I think that is a good attitude

His point is this:
you can only know you are in error, if you allow yourself to be subject to the truth. Yet you claim you are subject only to your own authority and self examination . That is not truth it’s individualism.

 

[Vico]

Why not? Can we do sin? Do we have free will?

Heaven is the place and condition of perfect supernatural happiness, and the happiness is essentially in the immediate vision and love of God, but also in the knowledge, love, and enjoyment of creatures.

There can be no sin with the immediate vision and love of God. Neither man nor the angels had this immediate vision and love of God when they sinned.