The Nature of God (Allah)

[Shenango]

Hey De Maria,

Is it Catholicism that teaches you this arrogance, and gives you authority to teach other people their faiths? I’m simply amazed by your forceful assertion of knowledge of Islam and your condescention that you’re right and we’re wrong, so much so that I forgot it was you was asking the questions in the first place. I should call you Imam De Maria from now on. And any time in the future when I’ve got a question about Islam, I’ll come to ask you? How about that instead of you asking me? I bet you’d be happy with that, wouldn’t you? This has been truly a humbling experience!

 

[De_Maria]

meedo:

Sister

No offense taken but I am a man who has taken Mary’s name because of my love for her. It is a long Catholic tradition followed by many Saints such as St. Louis Marie De Montfort.

, Allah is separate from His creation as an entity and not as in closeness. If i get too much near you then i am stil distinct friom you . Bieng closer than yr Jugular vein is a Metaphor of Closeness. Thats all.

If it is only a metaphor that Allah is separate from creation, which I have never heard as an explanation before, then you are saying that Allah is actually in creation. Which means that Allah is united to each and every being on earth. That is against Islamic teaching.

If it is only a metaphor that Allah is closer than one’s jugular vein, then we remain in the same quandary. Allah is separate from creation.

There is no way around it, there are too many conflicting Islamic teachings.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Shenango:

Hey De Maria, Is it Catholicism that teaches you this arrogance,

Is this arrogance, to seek to find the explanation for conflicting beliefs?

and gives you authority to teach other people their faiths?

I am asking questions. Pointed questions, yes, but if there is no contradiction there should be an answer. There isn’t.

I’m simply amazed by your forceful assertion of knowledge of Islam

In every question, or almost every question, I have asked whether it isn’t true and I have prefaced with I have heard. I am not an Islamic scholar. But I have had enough discussions with Muslim propagandists (about twenty years worth) that I have had time to think their assertions through to their logical conclusions.

and your condescention that you’re right and we’re wrong,

It is not condescension. It is the fact that I have thought through these Muslim dogmatic statements and compared them to each other and found them to be flawed.

It is very simple. I happen to be a revert to Catholicism. Before I came back to the Church, I considered Islam. There were too many holes in its doctrines.

Yes, I believe I am right.

Yes, I believe you are wrong.

If you are honest you will admit that you believe the opposite. If you don’t believe you are right why do you remain a Muslim.

so much so that I forgot it was you was asking the questions in the first place. I should call you Imam De Maria from now on.

All you need do is answer the questions or admit that the Islamic answer is wrong…

And any time in the future when I’ve got a question about Islam, I’ll come to ask you? How about that instead of you asking me? I bet you’d be happy with that, wouldn’t you? This has been truly a humbling experience!

I hope that you will consider these doctrines very thoroughly. Because it is obvious that the Islamic doctrines are false. Talk to your Imams and to whom ever you want. There is no getting around the Truth.

May God lead you to His Truth,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[r.gonzales]

it seems that there is a lack of understanding with respect to the islamic concept of tawheed, which

you are referring to as “unity”.
De Maria:

Ok. Before we get sidetracked. The question is, does the doctrine that Allah is closer to you than your

jugular vein contradict the doctrine that Allah is separate from Creation?

i mentioned what i did because it directly relates to what you’ve mentioned regarding the tawheed of Allah, or as you

say, His “unity” - which is not an accurate translation of the word tawheed.

Allah commanding His angels to carry out certain acts or duties does not infringe on Allah’s oneness (tawheed), which is

basically what you’ve been asking about.

and as my brother meedo mentioned, closeness is a description of proximity and even if the verse were to be taken to

literally mean that Allah, Himself, is closer to man than the jugular vein, this still does not contradict the belief that He

is seperate and distinct from His creation.
De Maria:

What you are saying then, is that the Allah Himself is not closer to you than your jugular vein, but His

angels are closer to you than your jugular vein. Is that correct?

no, this is not what i’m saying. what i’m saying is that the explanation given by ibn katheer is perfectly sound and inline

with islamic beliefs. what ibn katheer states is one interpretation… another interpretation is that Allah is closer to man

than the jugular vein in terms of His knowledge, which is all encompassing. this too is inline with islamic beliefs.
De Maria:

Is there another doctrine which says that there you have no friends between heaven and earth? I

seem to have heard that before in reference to intercession of the Saints.

there is no intercession in this worldly life and dead saints cannot hear you, nor help you. and islamically, supplicating to

dead saints - whether it be for intercession or any other thing - is considered to be a polytheistic act.
De Maria:

And that is considered a form of unity that is allowed? Or why did you mention this?

i mention it because, again, it relates to the verse in question and the interpretation given by ibn katheer concerning it.

one of the explanations for the use of “We” in the Quran is that when Allah says “We” He is including His angels because

they carry out the act with His command. thus, when Allah says, “We are closer to man than the jugular vein,” it is

perfectly acceptable that it is with reference to the angels who are upon the person’s shoulders, recording his deeds and

statements.
De Maria:

And what you mean here is to reiterate that Allah is not in creation and neither is He divided with His

knowledge present and His actual presence absent, but that His angels are present and recording your actions and then

passing that on to Allah. Is that correct?

Allah does not need to be informed of what we do, since His knowledge is all encompassing. the recording of our deeds

and statements is for the benefit of ourselves and will be used a proof for us, or against us on the day of judgement.
De Maria:

They are conclusions one comes to if they follow the teachings of Islam to their logical end.

perhaps if the original premises that the conclusions are built upon are flawed in some sense…

to be continued…

 

[r.gonzales]

continued…
De Maria:

Existence, includes all which exists. If Allah exists and I assume you believe He does and creation exists and I assume you believe it does, then in the Islamic world they are two separate elements of existence.

It is impossible for Allah to be greater than all which exists if Allah is separate from existence. It is a simple mathematical calculation. If a + b = c then c >a and c > b. Therefore if Allah plus creation equal all that exists, then all that exists is greater than Allah alone and all that exists is greater than creation.

seems like there’s a bit of confusion on your part here…

yes, existence includes all that exists - and it is made up of numerous entities. existence in and of itself is not an entity.

as for your equation, in my first post i did mentioned that there are two things in all of existence, the Creator and His creation. i also mentioned that Allah is seperate and distinct from His creation - i did not use the word existence, and the two are not interchangable here.

firstly, if by seperate from “existence”, you mean seperate from creation, then yes, Allah is seperate and distinct from His creation and He is greater than existence (that is, if by the word existence you mean all of creation - Allah is not a created being).

however, if not, and by existence you mean everything that exists, then this existence obviously includes Allah, so how can He be seperate from something He is a part of. your mathematical equation is a kin to asking if Allah is greater than Himself, since Allah exists and is part of existence as a whole.

either way, your equation is not valid and does not apply.
De Maria:

And that means that Allah has limits and is not omni-present, which I believe is another Islamic doctrine.

firstly, the belief of wahdatul-wujood (unity of existence) is a belief held by the heretical sufis who believe that Allah exists within His creation.

secondly, Allah is present at all times, presiding over His creation, conducting, regulating and managing the affairs. He is not omnipresent in the sense that He present is in every place, so it was incorrect of me to use the term to try to explain the issue.
De Maria:

Allah watching over creation contradicts the doctrine that Allah is not to be characterized as a person. He has no eyes. Therefore, this is another contradiction.

there is no contradiction with the belief that Allah is watching over His creation. also, attributing eyes to Allah does not necessitate that doing so likens Him to a person - or even anything from creation for that matter. islamic belief is that Allah has hands, that He has a foot and a face. none of this necessitates that those who hold this belief are characterising Allah as a person.

for example, we say that Allah has a face. however, His face is not like any other face. humans have faces, so do animals… a clock also has a face. yet, none of these things are like each other - even human faces differ from each other. similarly, we say that Allah has hands… humans have hands, monkeys have hands, clocks have hands…

Allah’s attributes sharing names with attributes from His creation does not necessitate that the reality of those attributes resemble anything from the creation’s. as Allah says in the Quran, “there is nothing of His likes, and He is the Seeing, the Hearing.” (42:11) He also says, “and there is no one comparable to Him.” (112:4). these two verses negate any type of anthropomorphism as they clearly negate any resemblence to His creation. they also prove that Allah possesses the attributes of seeing and hearing, which are not comparable to the seeing and hearing of anything from His creation.

as for your other reply, i’ll get to it tomorrow, if Allah willed.

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

it seems that there is a lack of understanding with respect to the islamic concept of tawheed, which you are referring to as “unity”. …

Allah commanding His angels to carry out certain acts or duties does not infringe on Allah’s oneness (tawheed), which is basically what you’ve been asking about.

Apparently you see a difference between the word “oneness” and the word “unity”.

But if you want to substitute the word oneness for unity. Be my guest. The contradiction remains.

Allah’s commanding His angels was not one of my questions. That was brought up by the person on the website you referred to.

The original question was whether Allah is separate from creation? The answer you provided in a nutshell was “yes”.

Then I asked how can this be reconciled to the idea that Allah is closer to you than your jugular vein. The answer you provided according to the website you referred says that Allah is closer to us through His angels.

Therefore, since you believe that Allah does not enter creation, then Allah is limited. Allah is not omni-present.

Apparently other Muslims believe differently, but this is the logical conclusion to which your beliefs lead.

and as my brother meedo mentioned, closeness is a description of proximity and even if the verse were to be taken to literally mean that Allah, Himself, is closer to man than the jugular vein, this still does not contradict the belief that He is seperate and distinct from His creation.

Yes it does. First of all, if our jugular vein is in creation, then that would mean that Allah’s presence would have to be in creation in order to be closer to us than our jugular vein.

However, if it is some other way which a human mind can’t comprehend, then that clashes with the vaunted doctrine of Islamic simplicity. As I have been told many times before, Islam is so simple it must be believed. But this is very difficult to believe, therefore it must not be believed.

no, this is not what i’m saying. what i’m saying is that the explanation given by ibn katheer is perfectly sound and inline with islamic beliefs. what ibn katheer states is one interpretation… another interpretation is that Allah is closer to man than the jugular vein in terms of His knowledge, which is all encompassing. this too is inline with islamic beliefs.

But although they may be in line with Islamic belief they are illogical. Two contradictory statements can’t both be true. Therefore one or the other Islamic belief is an error. Or both. Because two contradictory statements can both be wrong.

Now it is obvious that if you say that His knowledge is closer to you than His presence, then you are not only dividing Allah but making one attribute of His greater than another. But Allah is one and cannot be divided. Therefore this is obviously wrong.

there is no intercession in this worldly life and dead saints cannot hear you, nor help you. and islamically, supplicating to dead saints - whether it be for intercession or any other thing - is considered to be a polytheistic act.

But angels can help you? I mention this because I’m certain I’ve been told that there are no friends between heaven and earth.

i mention it because, again, it relates to the verse in question and the interpretation given by ibn katheer concerning it. one of the explanations for the use of “We” in the Quran is that when Allah says “We” He is including His angels because they carry out the act with His command. thus, when Allah says, “We are closer to man than the jugular vein,” it is perfectly acceptable that it is with reference to the angels who are upon the person’s shoulders, recording his deeds and statements.

That was simply the clarification I asked of you. As ibn katheer explained, there are other Muslims who do not believe this but believe in the knowledge presence dichotomy. I just wanted your interpretation for purposes of our discussion.

As I have said. Both interpretations are flawed. They both contradict other Islamic principles and simple human logic.

Allah does not need to be informed of what we do, since His knowledge is all encompassing. the recording of our deeds and statements is for the benefit of ourselves and will be used a proof for us, or against us on the day of judgement.

You keep dividing Allah into separate entities as though His knowledge goes farther than His presence. I thought this was a form of shirk? How many divisions can you make for Allah? Does He also have vision which extends further than His presence? If He has knowledge, does He have a mind in which this knowledge resides?

perhaps if the original premises that the conclusions are built upon are flawed in some sense…

{continued}

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

continued…
seems like there’s a bit of confusion on your part here…

yes, existence includes all that exists - and it is made up of numerous entities. existence in and of itself is not an entity.

as for your equation, in my first post i did mentioned that there are two things in all of existence, the Creator and His creation. i also mentioned that Allah is seperate and distinct from His creation - i did not use the word existence, and the two are not interchangable here.

firstly, if by seperate from “existence”, you mean seperate from creation, then yes, Allah is seperate and distinct from His creation and He is greater than existence (that is, if by the word existence you mean all of creation - Allah is not a created being).

If Allah exists then He is part of existence. You are not atheist, therefore you believe that Allah exists. But you believe that Allah exists apart from creation which means that Allah is less than existence.

however, if not, and by existence you mean everything that exists, then this existence obviously includes Allah, so how can He be seperate from something He is a part of. your mathematical equation is a kin to asking if Allah is greater than Himself, since Allah exists and is part of existence as a whole. either way, your equation is not valid and does not apply.

The idea isn’t that complicated. If you claim that Allah is separate from creation then we can simply label Allah as “A” and creation as “B” and the sum existence as “C”. The mathematical and logical conclusions are clear and obvious.

firstly, the belief of wahdatul-wujood (unity of existence) is a belief held by the heretical sufis who believe that Allah exists within His creation.

So there is a sect of Muslims which you consider heretical and who do come to the conclusion, from the Quran I presume, that God is present in creation? I think I have seen their website.

secondly, Allah is present at all times, presiding over His creation, conducting, regulating and managing the affairs. He is not omnipresent in the sense that He present is in every place, so it was incorrect of me to use the term to try to explain the issue.

So you don’t seem to believe that Allah is omnipresent? Do you believe that Allah is eternal?

{continued}

 

[De_Maria]

there is no contradiction with the belief that Allah is watching over His creation. also, attributing eyes to Allah does not necessitate that doing so likens Him to a person - or even anything from creation for that matter. islamic belief is that Allah has hands, that He has a foot and a face. none of this necessitates that those who hold this belief are characterising Allah as a person.

That is the first time that any Muslim has said this to me. All Muslims that I have spoken to, between twenty and thirty, over the past twenty years, have said it is a sin to attribute human qualities to Allah. Eys, hands, feet and face.

for example, we say that Allah has a face. however, His face is not like any other face. humans have faces, so do animals… a clock also has a face. yet, none of these things are like each other - even human faces differ from each other. similarly, we say that Allah has hands… humans have hands, monkeys have hands, clocks have hands…

Allah’s attributes sharing names with attributes from His creation does not necessitate that the reality of those attributes resemble anything from the creation’s. as Allah says in the Quran, “there is nothing of His likes, and He is the Seeing, the Hearing.” (42:11) He also says, “and there is no one comparable to Him.” (112:4). these two verses negate any type of anthropomorphism as they clearly negate any resemblence to His creation. they also prove that Allah possesses the attributes of seeing and hearing, which are not comparable to the seeing and hearing of anything from His creation.

But a face is a face and it is recognizable. Hands are hands and they are recognizable. Therefore these are anthropomorphisms. These are attributes of a creature attributed to Allah.

Therefore, using an anthropomorphism to describe Allah and then denying it is simply contradicting oneself. One need simply say Allah is aware without using anthropomorphisms which Islam condemns in other religions. Therefore, denying the anthropomorphism which is clearly being used to describe Allah is simply self contradicting.

As far as these verses are concerned, there is another problem. These verses are saying that Allah is a mystery and incomprehensible to a human mind. Again that is a contradiction to the simplicity of Islam. There are not supposed to be such difficulties. There are not supposed to be such mysteries.

as for your other reply, i’ll get to it tomorrow, if Allah willed.

However, I thank you for your honest reply. Without meaning any disrespect to you, or your fellow Muslim brethren, the divergence in Theology which you express confirms that another famous Muslim claim is also false. That is, that all Muslims believe the same thing.

God willing, I’ll get to your reply in 10 days.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

This violates the doctrine that nothing proceeds from Allah. If Allah’s words or thoughts or other form of communication went from Him to his creation then something proceeded from Allah.

seems to me that much of the islamic “doctrines” you have knowledge about stems from the sufis, which would explain the claims of anthropomorphism and omnipresence…
De Maria:

If He spoke as a person, He is anthropomorphised. If He sent his words in another manner then they proceeded from Him.

we believe that Allah spoke to moses and to muhammad, just as i’ve mentioned. speech does not necessitate anthropomorphism, nor does saying that Allah has hands, a face, eyes, etc. anthropomorphism is defined as “the ascription of human form or characteristics to a deity, or to any being or thing not human.” (funk&wagnalls standard desk dictionary, 1974) i have already shown that these attributes that i’ve listed are not specific to humans, or any single type of creature in existence for that matter. thus, these things would be considered to be anthropomorphism if it is said that Allah’s eyes are like human eyes, or that Allah’s hands are like human hands. and this is not the case. we say that Allah has told us in the Quran and upon the tongue of His prophet that Allah has a face - however, His face is not like human faces, nor is it like the face of anything else from His creation, and this is because He says, “and there is nothing of His likes, and He is the Seeing, the Hearing”
De Maria:

This seems to contradict what you said about the angels on our shoulders writing the good and bad deeds. Obviously, they are accepting the good and passing it on to Allah.

no, they are recording good and bad deeds. seems like you don’t understand the difference between the two. accepting and rejecting is done by Allah, and this means that He accepts it as a good deed, thus gives good reward for it or that He rejects it as a good deed, thus give bad reward for it.
De Maria:

I am surprised to see you use the word “soul”. I have heard muslims adamantly deny the existence of the soul. Why do some muslims not believe in souls? Are they mentioned in the Quran. I would like to know because I still communicate with said individuals.

i wonder what types of muslims you’re hearing from… and where you’re learning your information regarding islamic beliefs because it is clear that something is out of wack. the word “nafs” (pl. anfus) in arabic means “self” or “soul”. and this word is mentioned numerous times in the Quran.
De Maria:

Yes it does necessitate His presence within us.

how so? i’d like to see your explanation and proof of this.
De Maria:

That is why Catholic doctrine is so far superior from Islam. Yahweh is He who is. “I Am Who Am” . That signifies that God is all. He it is in Whom we live, move and have our being. He is not affected by time or space. He is in time and outside of time because He created time and time does not affect Him. Space also does not affect Him. He is whole and complete in every atom or smallest particle and He is greater than the whole of creation.

far superior? hah. sorry, but that’s quite funny. your beliefs dictate that Allah died as a man. firstly, our beliefs state that Allah does not die. secondly, our beliefs do not anthropomorphize Allah, whereas yours clearly do by saying that He came to the earth in the form of one of His prophets.

btw, atoms and particles are things that Allah created. thus, it is not correct to say that Allah is made up of these things. Allah is not a created being…

as for the rest of what you’ve said, then my reply to them can wait until i:

1. see your explanation of how Allah revealing Himself as real to us necessitates that He is present within us.
2. where you’re learning these islamic doctrines.

 

[meedo]

De Maria:

No offense taken but I am a man who has taken Mary’s name because of my love for her. It is a long Catholic tradition followed by many Saints such as St. Louis Marie De Montfort.

If it is only a metaphor that Allah is separate from creation, which I have never heard as an explanation before, then you are saying that Allah is actually in creation. Which means that Allah is united to each and every being on earth. That is against Islamic teaching.

If it is only a metaphor that Allah is closer than one’s jugular vein, then we remain in the same quandary. Allah is separate from creation.

There is no way around it, there are too many conflicting Islamic teachings.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes Allah is separate from His creation. But that doesnt mean not bieng close . I didnt say that Allah is a creation . Me and you can never udnerstand the nature of who created us unless he tells us .

what is conflicting you in my post exactly ?

Peace

 

[r.gonzales]

after reading through you some of your comments a bit more thoroughly, i decided to post these comments and observations to some of what you’ve said… (still waiting on a reply from you on to those two issues also).
De Maria:

Apparently you see a difference between the word “oneness” and the word “unity”.

the word unity in the english language carries a connotation of being multiple separate parts that are brought together as one. such is not the nature of Allah. Allah is a single being and entity, not made up of parts or pieces. He has attributes that are ascribed to Him to describe various aspects of His nature.
De Maria:

Therefore, since you believe that Allah does not enter creation, then Allah is limited. Allah is not omni-present.

Allah has no limits as limits are something that He sets and creates. this is not to be understood in an absolute sense, however. this is because we say that Allah is Everliving and never dies and that Allah is Capable of all things. the argument that some make then is that if Allah cannot die, thus He is not capable of everything. this is also similar to the argument that some atheists bring with regards to whether or not Allah is capable of creating a rock so large that He Himself cannot lift it.

Allah is absolute and perfect, thus only attributes of perfection can be attributed to Him. death is not an attribute of perfection. it is a deficiency of life, which is an attribute of perfection. thus, it cannot be attributed to Allah. similarly, one of Allah’s attributes is loftiness and transcendence. He exists beyond the limits of creation. to believe that Allah is everywhere and in everything violates this attribute of transcendence and would necessitate that He exist in feces or urine or other such vile and unbefitting things and places. thus, omnipresence is not an attribute of Allah’s.
De Maria:

Apparently other Muslims believe differently, but this is the logical conclusion to which your beliefs lead.

of course there are other muslims who believe differently… the muslims are split into a number of different sects - similar to christianity… islam however is one, and those sects that differ from the sect upon the true understanding of the religion have all deviated in some aspect or another, again, similar to what you would say about the various other christian sects out there.

as for the various so called “logical conclusions” you’ve come to, then from what’s apparent, they’re based upon a great deal of assumptions made regarding my beliefs and the various “islamic” doctrines you’ve come to know about - most of which seem to be ideologies stemming from sufi beliefs, which i don’t adhere to, and are not supported by the proper understanding of islam’s legislative texts.

might i suggest that if you are simply asking questions, as you say, then simply ask questions and rather than make statements regarding this or that doctrine you’ve come to learn about and how what i mention here contradicts said doctrine assuming that i hold it to be true, ask what i - or rather, the legislative texts have to say about it.
De Maria:

if it is some other way which a human mind can’t comprehend, then that clashes with the vaunted doctrine of Islamic simplicity. As I have been told many times before, Islam is so simple it must be believed. But this is very difficult to believe, therefore it must not be believed.

just because you’ve been told something about islam does not mean that it is necessarily true of the religion’s dictates. as for islam’s simplicity, it lies in the fact that it’s main tenet is to single out Allah in all forms of worship, performing them purely and sincerely for His sake, not associating anyone or anything with Him in that. it is also simple and easy in its application and its various obligations placed on its adherents.

as for the various branches of knowledge and scholastic studies and researches, then they are vast, with some being fairly easy to grasp and comprehend and while others are complex and intricate. so islamic simplicity has its context.
De Maria:

But although they may be in line with Islamic belief they are illogical. Two contradictory statements can’t both be true. Therefore one or the other Islamic belief is an error. Or both. Because two contradictory statements can both be wrong.

of the two explanations given for that verse, neither contradict each other, nor are they illogical. it is only your flawed sense of reasoning that leads you to believe that…

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

Now it is obvious that if you say that His knowledge is closer to you than His presence, then you are not only dividing Allah but making one attribute of His greater than another. But Allah is one and cannot be divided. Therefore this is obviously wrong.

this conclusion of yours is built upon false premises. firstly, to say that one of Allah’s attributes exceeds another does not “divide” Allah in the same way that one of your own attributes exceeding another does not divide you (for example, if you are more athletically inclined than intellectually inclined, it is said that your athleticism exceeds your intellect - yet, you yourself, as a person and individual, are not divided due to it). similarly, prophet muhammad narrated that Allah said, “My mercy outweighs My wrath.” His attribute of mercy exceeding His attribute of anger and wrath does not necessitate infringement on His oneness. so, both textual and logical reasoning clearly show that you’re wrong in your conclusion here.
De Maria:

But angels can help you? I mention this because I’m certain I’ve been told that there are no friends between heaven and earth.

firstly, what do you mean by “friends”?

secondly, angels can help humans if Allah so commands them. it should be noted that supplicating to angels for help is still considered to be polytheistic, and that is because aid is only sought from Allah.

more to come later…

 

[De_Maria]

meedo:

Sister ,

]Allah is separate from His creation as an entity and not as in closeness. If i get too much near you then i am stil distinct friom you . Bieng closer than yr Jugular vein is a Metaphor of Closeness. Thats all.

I had always heard that the Quran does not speak in metaphors. That every word in the Quran means what it says.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Shenango]

De Maria:

I had always heard that the Quran does not speak in metaphors. That every word in the Quran means what it says.

That’s not true. At times, the Qur’an is literal, and at others it is metaphorical. The context and interpretation can determine when it is being which. I would cite the verse for you that says this, but you’d probably rudely shove it back it my face and call my interpretation wrong, and furthermore try to teach me what you think is the correct one, as you’ve uncourteously done with all of us who’ve been generous enough to attempt answer you in this thread, and to be patient with your abuse. Once again, what point is there to dialogue when you believe you have all the answers? Why do you ask when your mind is made up?

 

[dulcissima]

Shenango,

You are right. It is very generous that you and the other Muslim posters take the time to come on this board and answer questions. I realize that it can test your patience to answer questions when you know that the person asking them already has pre-conceived notions. Keep in mind though, that there are many more people silently reading your posts.

For the record, Catholics interpret the Bible in much the same way, some parts are meant literally and others figuratively.

Thank you for the time that you invest here.

Dulcissima

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

after reading through you some of your comments a bit more thoroughly, i decided to post these comments and observations to some of what you’ve said… (still waiting on a reply from you on to those two issues also).

Which two issues?

the word unity in the english language carries a connotation of being multiple separate parts that are brought together as one.

Not necessarily:

define: unity
integrity: an unreduced or unbroken completeness or totality
one: the smallest whole number or a numeral representing this number; “he has the one but will need a two and three to go with it”; “they had lunch at one”

• oneness: the quality of being united into one [wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn](http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=unity) The first and second definitions in this series are of one.
  define: oneness
  the quality of being united into one
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
  
  The word “oneness” seems to carry the same connotation.
  

  such is not the nature of Allah. Allah is a single being and entity, not made up of parts or pieces. He has attributes that are ascribed to Him to describe various aspects of His nature.

  Understood.
  

  Allah has no limits as limits are something that He sets and creates. this is not to be understood in an absolute sense, however. this is because we say that Allah is Everliving and never dies and that Allah is Capable of all things. the argument that some make then is that if Allah cannot die, thus He is not capable of everything. this is also similar to the argument that some atheists bring with regards to whether or not Allah is capable of creating a rock so large that He Himself cannot lift it.

  These are not part of my argument.
  

  Allah is absolute and perfect, thus only attributes of perfection can be attributed to Him. death is not an attribute of perfection. it is a deficiency of life, which is an attribute of perfection. thus, it cannot be attributed to Allah. similarly, one of Allah’s attributes is loftiness and transcendence. He exists beyond the limits of creation. to believe that Allah is everywhere and in everything violates this attribute of transcendence and would necessitate that He exist in feces or urine or other such vile and unbefitting things and places. thus, omnipresence is not an attribute of Allah’s.

  Good then you have made it clear again that you don’t believe in Allah’s omnipresence. Now, please answer my question. If you don’t believe in Allah’s omnipresence, do you believe in His eternity? Is Allah eternal?
  

  of course there are other muslims who believe differently… the muslims are split into a number of different sects - similar to christianity…

  Which is the true Islam created by Mohamed?
  
  (cont’d)

 

[De_Maria]

islam however is one, and those sects that differ from the sect upon the true understanding of the religion have all deviated in some aspect or another, again, similar to what you would say about the various other christian sects out there.

as for the various so called “logical conclusions” you’ve come to, then from what’s apparent, they’re based upon a great deal of assumptions made regarding my beliefs and the various “islamic” doctrines you’ve come to know about - most of which seem to be ideologies stemming from sufi beliefs, which i don’t adhere to, and are not supported by the proper understanding of islam’s legislative texts.

It is impossible to tell who is what amongst Muslims until one talks to them. However, I have found that all Muslim sects have the same or similar contradictions. All we need do is delve some more into your beliefs.

might i suggest that if you are simply asking questions,

I said I was asking questions. I didn’t say I was “simply asking” questions. Or if I did, please quote me and I will apologize. Obviously, I am asking these questions in order to highlight what I believe are contradictions in Islamic doctrine.

as you say, then simply ask questions and rather than make statements regarding this or that doctrine you’ve come to learn about and how what i mention here contradicts said doctrine assuming that i hold it to be true, ask what i - or rather, the legislative texts have to say about it.

That is why I am asking the questions. First I want the answer as you believe it. Then I examine it.

just because you’ve been told something about islam does not mean that it is necessarily true of the religion’s dictates. as for islam’s simplicity, it lies in the fact that it’s main tenet is to single out Allah in all forms of worship, performing them purely and sincerely for His sake, not associating anyone or anything with Him in that. it is also simple and easy in its application and its various obligations placed on its adherents.

That certainly sounds very simple. Is it true that one must learn Arabic in order to worship Allah correctly?

as for the various branches of knowledge and scholastic studies and researches, then they are vast, with some being fairly easy to grasp and comprehend and while others are complex and intricate. so islamic simplicity has its context.

of the two explanations given for that verse, neither contradict each other, nor are they illogical. it is only your flawed sense of reasoning that leads you to believe that…

Yes. They do contradict each other. Even the website that you recommended says so.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir
(And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.) means, His angels are nearer to man than his jugular vein. Those who explained We' in the Ayah to mean Our knowledge,’ have done so to avoid falling into the idea of incarnation or indwelling; but these two creeds are false according to the consensus of Muslims. Allah is praised and glorified, He is far hallowed beyond what they ascribe to Him. The words of this Ayah do not need this explanation (that We' refers to Allah’s knowledge’),…

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[dulcissima]

Shenango,

You are right. It is very generous that you and the other Muslim posters take the time to come on this board and answer questions. I realize that it can test your patience to answer questions when you know that the person asking them already has pre-conceived notions. Keep in mind though, that there are many more people silently reading your posts.

For the record, Catholics interpret the Bible in much the same way, some parts are meant literally and others figuratively.

Thank you for the time that you invest here.

Dulcissima

 

[Shenango]

dulcissima:

Thank you for the time that you invest here.

You’re more than welcome, and I do hope that my time here can be of worth to someone, if not everyone. It’s not pre-conceived notions though, that aggravate me as much as people insisting on them as correct even when refuted, and exhausting themselves trying to force my faith to be falsely errant.

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

Which two issues?

these two issues mentioned in post #29:

r.gonzales:

as for the rest of what you’ve said, then my reply to them can wait until i:

1. see your explanation of how Allah revealing Himself as real to us necessitates that He is present within us.
2. where you’re learning these islamic doctrines.