The Nature of God (Allah)

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

do you believe in His eternity? Is Allah eternal?

yes, we believe that Allah was not born, nor does He die. thus, He has no beginning and no end, the first and the last.
De Maria:

Yes. They do contradict each other. Even the website that you recommended says so.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir
(And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.) means, His angels are nearer to man than his jugular vein. Those who explained We' in the Ayah to mean Our knowledge,’ have done so to avoid falling into the idea of incarnation or indwelling; but these two creeds are false according to the consensus of Muslims. Allah is praised and glorified, He is far hallowed beyond what they ascribe to Him. The words of this Ayah do not need this explanation (that We' refers to Allah’s knowledge’),…

the quote from the website says no such thing. where do you see the word contradiction. ibn katheer is simply stating that there is no need to interpret it as “our knowledge” because he says that the ideologies that those are afraid of falling into are false by concesus of the muslims, that is, the ideologies of incarnation and indwelling.

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

this conclusion of yours is built upon false premises. firstly, to say that one of Allah’s attributes exceeds another does not “divide” Allah in the same way that one of your own attributes exceeding another does not divide you

Is Allah imperfect like me?

To say that Allah is one is to say that His knowledge is His essence. His love is His essence. Everything in Allah is one and only one. One cannot exceed one. Simple as that.

If you are now saying that Allah has components that differ and vary in quantity and quality, then Allah is no longer a perfect one, but a component one. A union of attributes instead of a simple one.

(for example, if you are more athletically inclined than intellectually inclined, it is said that your athleticism exceeds your intellect - yet, you yourself, as a person and individual, are not divided due to it). similarly, prophet muhammad narrated that Allah said, “My mercy outweighs My wrath.” His attribute of mercy exceeding His attribute of anger and wrath does not necessitate infringement on His oneness. so, both textual and logical reasoning clearly show that you’re wrong in your conclusion here.

I am an imperfect being. It is expected that humans have imperfections. If Islam says that certain attributes of Allah differ from others, then the so-called doctrine of “oneness” is violated.

What you said above simply shows that the Quran contradicts itself on this point. Logically, the point is clear. A simple “one”, does not have components of different weights and qualities. And the “oneness” of Allah is the key doctrine of your faith, is it not?

firstly, what do you mean by “friends”?

secondly, angels can help humans if Allah so commands them. it should be noted that supplicating to angels for help is still considered to be polytheistic, and that is because aid is only sought from Allah.

I mean intercessors. Angels and Saints who receive the prayers of the faithful and pass them on to God, witnessing on their behalf.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

similarly, prophet muhammad narrated that Allah said, “My mercy outweighs My wrath.” His attribute of mercy exceeding His attribute of anger and wrath does not necessitate infringement on His oneness. so, both textual and logical reasoning clearly show that you’re wrong in your conclusion here.

This statement contradicts itself in another way. Allah is absolute and without change, correct? Then His Mercy should always exceed His wrath. But Allah does not always accept repentance. Allah forgives if He wishes, not if you repent. Yet that is what one would expect if His mercy exceeds His wrath.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[r.gonzales]

still waiting on your reply to post #29…

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

seems to me that much of the islamic “doctrines” you have knowledge about stems from the sufis, which would explain the claims of anthropomorphism and omnipresence…

Perhaps. But, even the doctrines which you have admitted to believing contradict themselves.

we believe that Allah spoke to moses and to muhammad, just as i’ve mentioned. speech does not necessitate anthropomorphism,

Does any other creature speak besides man?

nor does saying that Allah has hands,

If we say that a monkey has hands, is it because his hands resemble the limbs of a dog?

Or is it because his hands resemble the limbs of a man?

a face, eyes

Do we say that a clock has a face because a dog has a face?
In every case, we recognize a human feature and ascribe it to a creature.

etc. anthropomorphism is defined as “the ascription of human form or characteristics to a deity, or to any being or thing not human.”

Exactly, and in this case the Quran has ascribed a human feature to a deity.

(funk&wagnalls standard desk dictionary, 1974) i have already shown that these attributes that i’ve listed are not specific to humans,

That doesn’t matter. It is not because dogs named them or monkeys named them that we use those words to describe those attributes. Humans made those words and used them to describe the world around them.

or any single type of creature in existence for that matter. thus, these things would be considered to be anthropomorphism if it is said that Allah’s eyes are like human eyes, or that Allah’s hands are like human hands. and this is not the case. we say that Allah has told us in the Quran and upon the tongue of His prophet that Allah has a face - however, His face is not like human faces, nor is it like the face of anything else from His creation, and this is because He says, “and there is nothing of His likes, and He is the Seeing, the Hearing”

Obviously, the Quran is saying that Allah’s hands have something in common with human hands otherwise the word hand would not be used to describe them. And the Quran is saying that Allah has some organ that it can describe as eyes because they see, etc. etc.

no, they are recording good and bad deeds. seems like you don’t understand the difference between the two. accepting and rejecting is done by Allah,

It seems to me like a simple human affair. A person records something for his boss and the boss accepts or rejects. In this case a creature is recording the actions of another creature, much like a witness and submitting the record to Allah, who then decides.

Can a witness be considered an intercessor or a mediator?

What is the purpose of the recording, if Allah sees all and knows all, there is no reason to record anything? Is it because people record things all the time that this recording is attributed to Allah and His Angels?

and this means that He accepts it as a good deed, thus gives good reward for it or that He rejects it as a good deed, thus give bad reward for it.

Let me get this straight. Allah sees all and knows all but He can’t go into creation so He sends two Angels to each human to record everything they do and then report back to Him. Is that correct?

i wonder what types of muslims you’re hearing from… and where you’re learning your information regarding islamic beliefs because it is clear that something is out of wack. the word “nafs” (pl. anfus) in arabic means “self” or “soul”. and this word is mentioned numerous times in the Quran.

Actually, this particularly one is from someone I know personally. We have frequently had these type of discussions. He call Himself a Sunni Muslim. And He rejects the concept of either the soul or the spirit in man. According to him, the body moves but is simply flesh and it moves only by the will of Allah. No other explanation is necessary. I frequently use the words spirit and soul interchangeably, are they interchangeable in Islam?

how so? i’d like to see your explanation and proof of this.

You didn’t quote everything I said. I will quote below in italics a more complete segment. I don’t believe any more need be said. But we can continue to delve into the subject if it is still not enough for you.
Yes it does necessitate His presence within us.

First of all, you are talking about the greatest being in existence. One whom existence itself cannot contain. Then you say that He is separate from creation. If nothing can contain Him how can he be kept apart from anything.*

(cont’d)

 

[De_Maria]

far superior? hah. sorry, but that’s quite funny.

I’m sure if you stay on this forum, many Catholics will be happy to correct your understanding of All Mighty God.

your beliefs dictate that Allah died as a man. firstly, our beliefs state that Allah does not die.

Does Allah have power over death?

I believe that Islam has another doctrine. Muslims teach that there is nothing more beautiful then the Quran and there is even a challenge that no one can write anything more beautiful.

I accept the challenge and I will write something infinitely more beautiful in just a few words. “For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes in HIm will not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

secondly, our beliefs do not anthropomorphize Allah,

It has been shown that your beliefs do anthropomorphize Allah.

whereas yours clearly do by saying that He came to the earth in the form of one of His prophets.

Yes, it is a mystery of our faith. He came in the flesh so we might live in the Spirit, He died so we might live, He was poor so we might be enriched.

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
257 “O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!” God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the “plan of his loving kindness”, conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: “He destined us in love to be his sons” and “to be conformed to the image of his Son”, through “the spirit of sonship”. This plan is a “grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began”, stemming immediately from Trinitarian love. It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued in the mission of the Church.

btw, atoms and particles are things that Allah created. thus, it is not correct to say that Allah is made up of these things. Allah is not a created being…

Just as the “oneness” Allah is your central doctrine. The Trinity of God is our central doctrine.

The Catholic Church teaches that the entire world proclaims God and His Glory. That means that God can be seen in His creation. If God were a Trinity, you would expect to see a trinitarian world. And that is exactly what you see. Everything in this world is three dimensional. From the smallest atom to the greatest planet, everything is three dimensional and yet they are one. A rock, for example, is three dimensional, but it is one. Turn it as you may, you will find it has height, depth and length.

Time also is three dimensional, we have past, present and future. But where is the dividing line. When is now, when did it become then, and when does the future become the present. Time is one seamless, continuous, phenomenon
and it is a trinity.

The only things that are not three dimensional exist only in our imagination. Points, lines and planes. They donl’t really exist.

as for the rest of what you’ve said, then my reply to them can wait until i:

1. see your explanation of how Allah revealing Himself as real to us necessitates that He is present within us.

You misunderstood. Allah of necessity must be present within us because nothing can keep Him out. Reread what I said.

where you’re learning these islamic doctrines.

As I said, I’ve been talking to Muslims for many years. And I’ve had the opportunity to consider what they said. I’ve looked up the doctrines on the internet and confirmed that what I was told was true concerning what Muslims teach.

I first was introduced to Islam when I was atheist. Many people whom I respect and and a few whom I love are Muslim.
They tried to convert me because of their love and respect for me. I took this into consideration and began looking into their claims. That was my motivation. It was during that time that I experienced a conversion and what I was once saw as complete lies (all religions, including Christianity) suddenly became necessary for me. I made private inquiries into Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. But I saw that none of them have the answers to the questions that troubled me. So I went to Luther (Protestantism), but he was simply confusing. I flat refused to consider Catholicism, but since I was born into a Catholic family, I thought or God inspired in me, that I should give the religion of my parents a try. I thank God that I did. Truly, the Catholic Church is the only true religion in the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[r.gonzales]

issue #1:
De Maria:

You misunderstood. Allah of necessity must be present within us because nothing can keep Him out. Reread what I said.

i read what you wrote and it makes no sense whatsoever. and like i commented on another statement of yours, what you said sounds very much like the philisophical mumbo jumbo the sufis continually ramble on about.

your belief of Allah residing within everything and being everywhere entails that Allah exists within things unbefitting of His majesty - and you say you honour and respect Him? giving Him honour and respect is saying that He exists within our feces and urine? in toilets, in anuses and other places we would never, ever even claim that we would exist in had we the ability to do so??? we muslims raise Allah above any imperfection and any defects and say about Him only what He has revealed to us through His prophets. we say that Allah is above the heavens and the earths conducting and managing the affairs of His creation.

you claim that by us saying that Allah is above His creation, serparate and distinct from it, we place limits on Allah. yet, in reality, by claiming that He exists within creation, you’re the ones actually placing limits on Him since you claim that His very essence exists within things that “contain” Him. you say that Allah is “One whom existence itself cannot contain,” yet say that He is basically contained within this existence that cannot contain Him? that sir, is a contradiction in your beliefs.

issue #2:
De Maria:

As I said, I’ve been talking to Muslims for many years. And I’ve had the opportunity to consider what they said. I’ve looked up the doctrines on the internet and confirmed that what I was told was true concerning what Muslims teach.

this, along with what you said about your friend who doesn’t believe in souls doesn’t exactly answer my question. that’s fine though. what you’ve said about your muslims friends, along with what you’ve mentioned concerning the islamic doctrines you’ve learned about, is enough to tell me that the muslims you know are ignorant of their religion and that the learning you’ve done about the religion was from the wrong sources - in all likelyhood, sufi sources, which would explain a lot concerning your confusion regarding our beliefs…

as for the other issues you’ve mentioned, then i’ll deal with those later if Allah so wills.

 

[r.gonzales]

here are some statements from the scholars of islam regarding anthropomorphism taken from ash-shaikh naasir ad-deen al-albaanee’s introduction of the book, mukhtasir al-'uloo lil-'alee al-ghaffaar (summary of [the book of] transcendence for the High, the Oft-forgiving) by al-imam adh-dhahabee.

al-albaanee wrote:

doubts and their answers
the first doubt: anthropomorphism
…

1. nu’aim (or na’eem) bin hammaad al-haafidh said, “whoever resembled Allah to His creation, then he has disbelieved. and whoever rejected what He described Himself by, then he has disbelieved. what He described Himself by is not athorpomorphism, nor [is what] His messenger [described Him by].”

1. ishaaq bin raahooyah (also pronounced raahawaih by some) said, "certainly, anthropomorphism would be if he said: hand like my hand, or hearing like my hearing. then this is anthropomorphism. as for if he said just as Allah said: hand and hearing and sight, then he did not say “how” or “the likes of…” then this is not anthropomorphism. Allah, exalted is He, said, “nothing is like His likes, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.”

if establishment of the state of being above for Allah, its meaning was anthropomorphism, then certainly, everyone who established the other attributes for Allah, exalted is He, such as His being living, capable, hearing, seeing, etc. would be an anthropomorphist also. and this is not what a muslim from those who attribute themselves today to the people of sunnah and the group (ahl as-sunnah wal-jamaa’ah) speaks of, contrary to the negators of the attributes, the mu’tazilites and others.

…

[in minhaaj as-sunnah (p.80), ibn taimiyyah] said, “and the intent here is that the people of sunnah are in agreement that Allah - nothing is like His likes, not in His essence, not in His attributes, not in His actions. however, the word anthropomorphism in the speech of the people is a general word. for if it is meant by negating anthropomorphism is what is negated by the Quran and the intellect indicates, then this is truth, for surely, the Lord’s specifics, exalted is He, is nothing from the creation is likened in anything from His attributes… and if it is meant by anthropomorphism that nothing of the attributes are established for Allah, then it cannot be said that He has knowledge, nor ability, nor life because the slave (i.e., the human being) is described by these attributes. thus, it necessitates that it is not said for Him: living, knowledgeable or able because the slave is called by these names, and similarly with regards to His speech, His hearing, His sight, His being seen and other than that. they agree with the people of sunnah that Allah is existant, living, knowledgeable and capable. and the created being, it is said for him: existant, living, knowledgeable and capable. and it is not said that this antropomorphism whose negation is obligated.”

more to come in due time…

 

[kristyn]

De Maria:

meedo:

Sister , /quote

No harm taken, but I am a man. ‘De Maria’ means ‘belongs to Mary’.

I had always heard that the Quran does not speak in metaphors. That every word in the Quran means what it says.

Sincerely,

    I have been exhaustingly reading your wise and very impressive posts, but i ask why do you bother?  Our Muslim friend, has no intention of listening to anything you have to say.  All he is doing is thinking of ways to answer you.

 

[kristyn]

De Maria:

meedo:

Sister , /quote

No harm taken, but I am a man. ‘De Maria’ means ‘belongs to Mary’.

I had always heard that the Quran does not speak in metaphors. That every word in the Quran means what it says.

Sincerely,

    I have been exhaustingly reading your wise and very impressive posts, but i ask why do you bother?  Our Muslim friend, has no intention of listening to anything you have to say.  All he is doing is thinking of ways to answer you.

 

[r.gonzales]

kristyn:

I have been exhaustingly reading your wise and very impressive posts, but i ask why do you bother? Our Muslim friend, has no intention of listening to anything you have to say. All he is doing is thinking of ways to answer you.

wise and very impressive? filled with confusion and misunderstandings, perhaps. but not wise or impressive.

has the thought crossed your mind that i’m not “listening” to what your brother de maria has to say because he’s wrong? also, he did state that he was asking me questions, so of course i’m going to try to answer him.

 

[hlgomez]

wise and very impressive? filled with confusion and misunderstandings, perhaps. but not wise or impressive.

has the thought crossed your mind that i’m not “listening” to what your brother de maria has to say because he’s wrong? also, he did state that he was asking me questions, so of course i’m going to try to answer him.

r.gonzales,

Natakot at naligalig ako sa mga sagot mo.

Bisdak!

Pio

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

even the doctrines which you have admitted to believing contradict themselves.

throughout this thread you’ve continually shown yourself to be confused about a number of things, one of which being which “islamic doctrines” you’ve learned about are infact islamic doctrines held by the muslims upon the correct beliefs, ahl as-sunnah wal-jamaa’ah. perhaps we should start a new thread about the claimed contradictions in islamic belief so that myself and some of the other muslims here, like hashi and meedo, can try to clear up any misconceptions you have.
De Maria:

Does any other creature speak besides man?

of course, only we don’t understand their languages. every species of animal communicates with others from their species, those who do so audibly speak.
De Maria:

Humans made those words and used them to describe the world around them.

not according to our beliefs. Allah says, “and [remember] when your Lord said to the angels, “surely, I am a placer of a successor in the earth.” they said, “will You place one who causes corruption in it and sheds blood, while we glorify You with Your praise and sanctify You?” He said, “surely, I know what you do not know.” and He taught adam the names [of things], all of them. then He presented them to the angels and said, “inform Me of the names of these [things], if you were truthful.” they said, “glory be to You, there is no knowledge for us except what You taught us. surely, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.” He said, “o adam, inform them of their names.” so, when he informed them of their names, He said, “did not I tell you, surely I know the heavens’ and the earth’s unseen, and I know what you display and what you used to conceal?”” (2:30-33).
De Maria:

Can a witness be considered an intercessor or a mediator?

if you’re asking about the angels, dead saints, or people who are not present, no.
De Maria:

What is the purpose of the recording, if Allah sees all and knows all, there is no reason to record anything?

the recording of actions and deeds is to establish evidence either for or against us. when we stand before our Lord on the day of reckoning our deeds will be presented to us and we will be reminded of the things we did in this wordly life.
De Maria:

Actually, this particularly one is from someone I know personally. We have frequently had these type of discussions. He call Himself a Sunni Muslim. And He rejects the concept of either the soul or the spirit in man. According to him, the body moves but is simply flesh and it moves only by the will of Allah. No other explanation is necessary. I frequently use the words spirit and soul interchangeably, are they interchangeable in Islam?

perhaps your “sunni” friend should do some more learning about his religion. it seems obvious that he doesn’t know much about it if he’s denying the existence of the soul/spirit, something that abundant evidence from the Quran and sunnah proves exists. and yes, the words are interchangeable in islam, however, their usages carry certain contexts. you can read more about it in the book “mysteries of the soul expounded” by abu bilal mustafa al-kanadi.
De Maria:

Does Allah have power over death?

regardless of how you try to explain it, you believe your god died. it doesn’t matter if he “defeated” death and rose again. the fact of the matter is that he died according to your beliefs. Allah does not die, nor can death come close to touching Him. He is the Everliving, Eternal Lord or all that exists.
De Maria:

I believe that Islam has another doctrine. Muslims teach that there is nothing more beautiful then the Quran and there is even a challenge that no one can write anything more beautiful.

I accept the challenge and I will write something infinitely more beautiful in just a few words.

nice try but that doesn’t even come close…
De Maria:

It has been shown that your beliefs do anthropomorphize Allah.

it has been shown that you don’t understand what anthropomorphism is.
De Maria:

Yes, it is a mystery of our faith. He came in the flesh so we might live in the Spirit, He died so we might live, He was poor so we might be enriched.

a mystery, indeed. so much so that none of the prophets and messengers - including jesus - believed in it, or even taught it to their peoples, despite your claims and use of ambiguous biblical verses… so much so that no christian - regardless of denomination - can ever convincingly explain it in a logical, rational and reasonable manner… so much so that you can ascribe these imperfections and deficiencies to Allah and feel completely comfortable with it, thinking it to be a good thing…

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

issue #1:
i read what you wrote and it makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes no sense to you. But it is quite logical.

and like i commented on another statement of yours, what you said sounds very much like the philisophical mumbo jumbo the sufis continually ramble on about.

Mumbo jumbo. This is Muslim argument?

your belief of Allah residing within everything and being everywhere entails that Allah exists within things unbefitting of His majesty - and you say you honour and respect Him?

Yes, I honor, respect and above all love God. Your belief that Allah is affected by anything at all is unbefitting of His Majesty. God transcends everything and is affected by nothing. God has nothing to fear.

giving Him honour and respect is saying that He exists within our feces and urine? in toilets, in anuses and other places we would never, ever even claim that we would exist in had we the ability to do so??? we muslims raise Allah above any imperfection and any defects and say about Him only what He has revealed to us through His prophets. we say that Allah is above the heavens and the earths conducting and managing the affairs of His creation.

Yes, you make a false God that does not exist. A God who is afraid of His own creation. A God who is affected by uncleanliness and mire. A God who can be soiled by His own creatures.

Our God is beyond all this. Our God is immune to anything that He created. He is the Master, the Creator, the Designer of all. God is not soiled by anything.

you claim that by us saying that Allah is above His creation, serparate and distinct from it, we place limits on Allah. yet, in reality, by claiming that He exists within creation, you’re the ones actually placing limits on Him since you claim that His very essence exists within things that “contain” Him.

God is contained by nothing and everything. The laws of space and time do not apply to God. God exists entirely within the smallest particle and God is greater than the greatest entity. God is greater than the entire universe, God is greater than all which is created.

you say that Allah is “One whom existence itself cannot contain,” yet say that He is basically contained within this existence that cannot contain Him? that sir, is a contradiction in your beliefs.

No. It is not. God is not affected by time. God is not affected by space. If God were limited by time or space then God would not be their master. They would be His master.

Therefore God entirely exist in the smallest particle. There is no limit to how small God can be. And there is no limit to how great God is. God is greater than all which He created. God is the greatest in all existence. No one thing and no combination of things is greater than God.

Issue #2:
this, along with what you said about your friend who doesn’t believe in souls doesn’t exactly answer my question. that’s fine though. what you’ve said about your muslims friends, along with what you’ve mentioned concerning the islamic doctrines you’ve learned about, is enough to tell me that the muslims you know are ignorant of their religion and that the learning you’ve done about the religion was from the wrong sources - in all likelyhood, sufi sources, which would explain a lot concerning your confusion regarding our beliefs…

as for the other issues you’ve mentioned, then i’ll deal with those later if Allah so wills.

Have you not realized that you confirmed all which I said? When I asked whether Muslims believed that Allah is separate from creation, you answered in the affirmative. When I mentioned that this contradicted the teaching about Allah being closer than your jugular vein, your response showed that you were familiar with this teaching and you provided two explanations for it on one website. That website said that the one explanation was wrong and the other right. I proved they were both contradictory to the first teaching which I mentioned.

In the same way, you have personally confirmed every Islamic doctrine I have brought up. You have not been able to answer the claim of contradiction coherently. All you can do is characterize my words as mumbo jumbo.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

here are some statements from the scholars of islam regarding anthropomorphism taken from ash-shaikh naasir ad-deen al-albaanee’s introduction of the book, mukhtasir al-'uloo lil-'alee al-ghaffaar (summary of [the book of] transcendence for the High, the Oft-forgiving) by al-imam adh-dhahabee.

al-albaanee wrote:

more to come in due time…

It is very simple for me to cut and paste many articles which address your statements. It would certainly save me time.
But I believe that violates the first rule of content in this forum.

CONTENT RULES

1. 
   *]Do not paste articles from web sites into a post. If you wish to reference an article on the web, link to its web address, instead.
   
   As for me, I don’t want to respond to cut and paste articles from the internet. If you can’t take the time to respond to my messages yourself, please don’t address them at all. Otherwise we’ll simply get into a game of cut and paste. You cut and paste, I cut and paste, etc. etc…
   
   Sincerely,
   
   De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

kristyn:

De Maria:

meedo:

Sister ,

But there are many, like yourself, who are paying attention.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

dulcissima}:

Hello Dulcissima,

Are you saying that Catholics interpret the Bible the same way as Muslims interpret the Quran? Would you kindly provide the official Islamic doctrine which describes how Muslims interpret the Quran and then compare it to Catholic doctrine on interpretation of the Bible? I think you will be surprised. But if not, then you will surprise me. Because I am certain that Muslims and Catholics do not use the same method or even a similar method of interpretation for their respective books of Divine Revelation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

throughout this thread you’ve continually shown yourself to be confused about a number of things,

No. It seems you are confused. You have confirmed that every doctrine I have brought up is a true Islamic doctrine.

one of which being which “islamic doctrines” you’ve learned about are infact islamic doctrines held by the muslims upon the correct beliefs, ahl as-sunnah wal-jamaa’ah. perhaps we should start a new thread about the claimed contradictions in islamic belief so that myself and some of the other muslims here, like hashi and meedo, can try to clear up any misconceptions you have.

1. You confirmed every Islamic doctrine I brought up.
2. You have brought up other Islamic doctrines yourself.
3. I have merely shown you the contradiction that exists within those doctrines.

As for a new thread, certainly. We can begin one anytime. By “we” do you mean you or I?

of course, only we don’t understand their languages. every species of animal communicates with others from their species, those who do so audibly speak.

If that is true, then you are not only anthropomorphizing Allah, but you are animorphizing Him. You are attributing speech to Him as though He were an animal.

P.S. Did Allah also teach the animals to speak as He did Adam below? Or did they learn speech all on their own? Or did Adam teach them to speak?

not according to our beliefs.

So, according to your beliefs, Allah taught Adam the name of all creatures. Since all mankind came from Adam, why don’t all men have the same name for all creatures?

Allah says, “and [remember] when your Lord said to the angels, “surely, I am a placer of a successor in the earth.” they said, “will You place one who causes corruption in it and sheds blood, while we glorify You with Your praise and sanctify You?” He said, “surely, I know what you do not know.” and He taught adam the names [of things], all of them. then He presented them to the angels and said, “inform Me of the names of these [things], if you were truthful.” they said, “glory be to You, there is no knowledge for us except what You taught us. surely, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.” He said, “o adam, inform them of their names.” so, when he informed them of their names, He said, “did not I tell you, surely I know the heavens’ and the earth’s unseen, and I know what you display and what you used to conceal?”” (2:30-33).

Excellent! Here you have provided a verse from the Quran which portrays God as speaking to both angels and men. This is proof that the Quran anthropormorphizes Allah.

{continued}

 

[De_Maria]

the recording of actions and deeds is to establish evidence either for or against us. when we stand before our Lord on the day of reckoning our deeds will be presented to us and we will be reminded of the things we did in this wordly life.

Several points:

1. You seem to believe that this recording is actual. Is that true?
2. If so, are the angels writing in pen and ink and paper? Or are they using some modern means of recording, tape or diskette? Where is this recording stored? How is this recording retrieved?
3. Who will read this recording? Who will present this evidence against the individual?
4. Why is any recording necessary if Allah sees and knows all?

perhaps your “sunni” friend should do some more learning about his religion. it seems obvious that he doesn’t know much about it if he’s denying the existence of the soul/spirit, something that abundant evidence from the Quran and sunnah proves exists. and yes, the words are interchangeable in islam, however, their usages carry certain contexts. you can read more about it in the book “mysteries of the soul expounded” by abu bilal mustafa al-kanadi.

Perhaps. I’ll tell him you said so when I next speak to him. Anyway, I asked for a verse or verses which I could present to him. If you have none, or if you dont want to present any, that is fine. We can move on.

regardless of how you try to explain it, you believe your god died. it doesn’t matter if he “defeated” death and rose again. the fact of the matter is that he died according to your beliefs. Allah does not die, nor can death come close to touching Him. He is the Everliving, Eternal Lord or all that exists.

Does death exist or not? If death exists and Allah has not died and lived again, then Allah has not proven His Mastery over death.

Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, died. He then rose again to new Life, proving that He is the master of life and death. And yes He is Eternal. Death does not bring an end to existence even for humans. It is just a bridge between life in this world and life in the Spirit.

nice try but that doesn’t even come close…

Let us compare.

In Islamic thought, Allah has no real reason for bringing mankind into being. It is mere whim. For one thing, reasonable beings do not act without reason. So, Allah’s creation of anything simply for whim and not for reason goes against the actions of a reasonable being.

In Catholic theology, God has a reason for bringing man into being. That reason is love. God made us so that we could love Him in this life and be with Him for eternity in the next. When we went astray, He sent His Son, God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as an example we should follow so that we would be saved and not lost.

I don’t think its close at all, Catholic Theology is far more beautiful than anything in creation and only God Himself exceeds it in beauty.

it has been shown that you don’t understand what anthropomorphism is.

Portraying God in human terms. Yes I understand. It has been shown that you understand and then expect us to suspend understanding in order to pass off this Islamic contradiction as truth. It is obvious that two contradictory statements can’t be true at the same time. Obviously, you can’t say that Allah speaks, has a mouth and hands and then claim you are not anthropormorphising Him. You are.

a mystery, indeed. so much so that none of the prophets and messengers - including jesus - believed in it, or even taught it to their peoples, despite your claims and use of ambiguous biblical verses…

This doesn’t seem very ambiguous to me.
"to those who through the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1).

so much so that no christian - regardless of denomination - can ever convincingly explain it in a logical, rational and reasonable manner…

It has always been explained reasonably. Frequently people don’t accept reason or truth. That doesn’t make it false. The Truth is true whether you believe it or not.

so much so that you can ascribe these imperfections and deficiencies to Allah and feel completely comfortable with it, thinking it to be a good thing…

What imperfections and deficiencies?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

It makes no sense to you. But it is quite logical.

perhaps to someone with a warped sense of logic.
De Maria:

Yes, I honor, respect and above all love God. Your belief that Allah is affected by anything at all is unbefitting of His Majesty. God transcends everything and is affected by nothing. God has nothing to fear.

Yes, you make a false God that does not exist. A God who is afraid of His own creation. A God who is affected by uncleanliness and mire. A God who can be soiled by His own creatures.

Our God is beyond all this. Our God is immune to anything that He created. He is the Master, the Creator, the Designer of all. God is not soiled by anything.

who said anything about Allah being affected by anything? when does describing Allah with things that are unbefitting to Him necessitate that He is affected by these unbefitting things?
De Maria:

God is contained by nothing and everything. The laws of space and time do not apply to God. God exists entirely within the smallest particle and God is greater than the greatest entity. God is greater than the entire universe, God is greater than all which is created.

with the exception of the first sentence, we believe in everything you’ve stated here. as for the first statement, it’s a contradiction and completely illogical. the only ones that see logic in that are those affected by philisophical mumbo jumbo (oops, there’s that word again).
De Maria:

Therefore God entirely exist in the smallest particle. There is no limit to how small God can be. And there is no limit to how great God is. God is greater than all which He created. God is the greatest in all existence. No one thing and no combination of things is greater than God.

so basically, your belief is that the only thing in existence is Allah. since He exists within His creation, in essense, He’s the only thing that exists. this is one of the deviant beliefs held by the sufis and is called wahdatul-wujood (unity of existence).
De Maria:

De Maria:

It is very simple for me to cut and paste many articles which address your statements. It would certainly save me time.

…

As for me, I don’t want to respond to cut and paste articles from the internet. If you can’t take the time to respond to my messages yourself, please don’t address them at all. Otherwise we’ll simply get into a game of cut and paste. You cut and paste, I cut and paste, etc. etc…

yes, agreed. it’s easy to cut and paste stuff found on the internet…

f.y.i. though, that quote that i posted is not found on any website except this one because i translated it myself from the arabic book i quoted it from that is found in my library. i didn’t violate any of the forum rules by posting it. and you accusing me of such is slander and a nice little tactic to avoid replying to it.
De Maria:

No. It seems you are confused.

nope… your posts prove that you’re not only confused, but that you don’t really know what you’re talking about. perhaps you should read through the posts first before replying instead of replying as you read.
De Maria:

If that is true, then you are not only anthropomorphizing Allah, but you are animorphizing Him. You are attributing speech to Him as though He were an animal.

refer to the quote i posted regarding the claims of anthropomorphism, which you so conveniently avoided, and try to understand what it says.