The Nature of God (Allah)

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

1. You seem to believe that this recording is actual. Is that true? 2. If so, are the angels writing in pen and ink and paper? Or are they using some modern means of recording, tape or diskette? Where is this recording stored? How is this recording retrieved? 3. Who will read this recording? Who will present this evidence against the individual? 4. Why is any recording necessary if Allah sees and knows all?

1. yes, we believe it is actual. 2. irrelevant. 3. you will when you receive your records on the day of judgement. 4. already answered.

De Maria:

Does death exist or not? If death exists and Allah has not died and lived again, then Allah has not proven His Mastery over death.

death is an abscence of life, a deficiency. mastery over death is simply not dying. everything in creation shall taste death, except the human soul, for that remains after one dies. your belief makes Allah no different from His creation.
De Maria:

Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, died. He then rose again to new Life, proving that He is the master of life and death. And yes He is Eternal. Death does not bring an end to existence even for humans. It is just a bridge between life in this world and life in the Spirit.

and here i thought that you catholics believed that death was a punishment from Allah due to adam and eve’s eating from the tree. or is that yet another contradiction in your beliefs?
De Maria:

In Islamic thought, Allah has no real reason for bringing mankind into being. It is mere whim. For one thing, reasonable beings do not act without reason. So, Allah’s creation of anything simply for whim and not for reason goes against the actions of a reasonable being.

now where on earth did you get this idea that islamic belief is that Allah did not have a reason for creating creation? i reemphasise your need to learn islamic beliefs through their proper channels. it’s clear you don’t have a clue.
De Maria:

In Catholic theology, God has a reason for bringing man into being. That reason is love. God made us so that we could love Him in this life and be with Him for eternity in the next. When we went astray, He sent His Son, God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as an example we should follow so that we would be saved and not lost.

thank you for displaying just how confusing your belief in Allah is. i restate what i stated in another post:

you believe that Allah is one of three and three in one at the same time; that Allah came to earth in the form of jesus, the anointed one; that Allah was the begotten son of Himself; that Allah died on the cross in order to bear the burden of the sins of His own creation. whereas we believe that Allah is free from all of this; that Allah is one, alone in His divinity, in His right to be worshipped, in His absolute beauty and perfection; that He does not beget, nor was He begotten; that jesus the anointed one was one of His righteous slaves, a prophet and messenger sent among the children of israel; that Allah is Everliving and never dies; and that Allah is fair and just and has made it such that no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another.

yeah, that makes perfect sense…

btw, Allah willing, this shall be my last post to this thread.

 

[exoflare]

r.gonzales:

btw, Allah willing, this shall be my last post to this thread.

Congratulations, as well. You win the award for most faces ever used by one forum member in all their posts. I’ll talk to the moderators about you receiving some kind of prize, and a big award ceremony… I’m hoping there will be lots of cake! :bounce:

 

[exoflare]

De Maria:

Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, died. He then rose again to new Life, proving that He is the master of life and death. And yes He is Eternal. Death does not bring an end to existence even for humans. It is just a bridge between life in this world and life in the Spirit.
…
In Catholic theology, God has a reason for bringing man into being. That reason is love. God made us so that we could love Him in this life and be with Him for eternity in the next. When we went astray, He sent His Son, God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity as an example we should follow so that we would be saved and not lost.

De Maria,

Two things… One, this guy has already proved all too many times how much he is willing to settle for evasive and condescending responses as a last resort. If you’re going to bother responding to him at all, itt’s probably best to keep it limited to one subject at a time so that way there’s less room for him to try weaseling out of the topic at hand.

Second, I think you’re going from point A to point D in your explanations considering of how much Muslims understand about God anyway. I wouldn’t hold your breath on them grasping the type of stuff you talked about in the above quotes until they can at least prove a knowledge of the basics. What you said above assumes too much prior knowledge of terminology and foundational Christian beliefs on the part of the reader, IMO.

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

perhaps to someone with a warped sense of logic.

Obviously, the best you can do is resort to insult. I think my reasonable arguments have shown the flaws in Islamic doctrine.

who said anything about Allah being affected by anything? when does describing Allah with things that are unbefitting to Him necessitate that He is affected by these unbefitting things?

You said,

“…we muslims raise Allah above any imperfection and any defects…”

This insinuates that you do not hold the doctrine of omnipresence of God because it would detrimentally affect God to exist within things you consider despicable. So, although you did not say it directly, you insinuated it.

with the exception of the first sentence, we believe in everything you’ve stated here. as for the first statement, it’s a contradiction and completely illogical. the only ones that see logic in that are those affected by philisophical mumbo jumbo (oops, there’s that word again).

Again, your reference to mumbo jumbo proves you can’t handle logical and reasonable argument but must resort to insult to respond to questions for which you have no answer.

My first statement reads:

God is contained by nothing and everything. The laws of space and time do not apply to God.

In other words, because the laws of space and time do not apply to God, He is contained by nothing and everything. He is everywhere at the same time and He is greater than everything. God is not limited to existence outside of time and space. That is, He is not limited to existence outside of creation.

Your belief that God does not exist in creation plainly illogical.

so basically, your belief is that the only thing in existence is Allah. since He exists within His creation, in essense, He’s the only thing that exists. this is one of the deviant beliefs held by the sufis and is called wahdatul-wujood (unity of existence).

I am not stating Sufi belief. As far as I am concerned they are Muslims. They base their beliefs on the Quran.

I am stating Catholic belief.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
God alone IS

212 Over the centuries, Israel’s faith was able to manifest and deepen realization of the riches contained in the revelation of the divine name. God is unique; there are no other gods besides him.24 He transcends the world and history. He made heaven and earth: "They will perish, but you endure; they will all wear out like a garment. . . .but you are the same, and your years have no end."25 In God "there is no variation or shadow due to change."26 God is “HE WHO IS”, from everlasting to everlasting, and as such remains ever faithful to himself and to his promises.

213 The revelation of the ineffable name “I AM WHO AM” contains then the truth that God alone IS. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, and following it the Church’s Tradition, understood the divine name in this sense: God is the fullness of Being and of every perfection, without origin and without end. All creatures receive all that they are and have from him; but he alone is his very being, and he is of himself everything that he is.

{cont’d}

 

[De_Maria]

f.y.i. though, that quote that i posted is not found on any website except this one because i translated it myself from the arabic book i quoted it from that is found in my library. i didn’t violate any of the forum rules by posting it. and you accusing me of such is slander and a nice little tactic to avoid replying to it.

I am sorry. I certainly didn’t intend to slander you. It looked like a cut and paste job but now that you’ve explained what you did, I’ll return to it and respond to it.

nope… your posts prove that you’re not only confused, but that you don’t really know what you’re talking about. perhaps you should read through the posts first before replying instead of replying as you read.

I see you ignored everything except the statement that you are confused. However, you have confirmed that every doctrine that I brought up is an actual Islamic doctrine.

1. That Allah is separate from creation, you are still arguing that and so continually confirm it.
2. That Allah is closer than your jugular vein. You confirmed this doctrine and provided evidence to explain how it did not contradict the first. Unfortunately, the evidence you provided only proved more contradictory and introduced the theory of the Allah’s knowledge being omnipresent and Allah’s presence being restricted to outside of creation.
3. That Allah calls Himself We because He considers Himself united to HIs angels and this violates the doctrine that Allah is to be united to no one. This you brought up.
4. That Allah’s mercy is greater than his anger which violates the oneness of Allah and the fact that Allah does not show mercy to all, but condemns many.
   And others which I can’t recall, which either you or I brought up but which you confirmed as true.

The contradiction of course, I highlighted.

refer to the quote i posted regarding the claims of anthropomorphism, which you so conveniently avoided, and try to understand what it says.

Please be more precise. As far as I am aware, I have avoided nothing which you have posted except the one which I thought was a cut and paste job.

Or, if it is really urgent to you, please repost it. I have certainly not avoided any of your statements.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

doubts and their answers
the first doubt: anthropomorphism
…

1. nu’aim (or na’eem) bin hammaad al-haafidh said, “whoever resembled Allah to His creation, then he has disbelieved. and whoever rejected what He described Himself by, then he has disbelieved. what He described Himself by is not athorpomorphism, nor [is what] His messenger [described Him by].”

Whether Allah or Mohammed used human terms to describe Allah that does not change the fact that it is anthropormorphism.

If Allah used the word hand to describe an apendage on His Spiritual body, then Allah used anthropomorphism to describe Himself. The best you can argue is that Allah is permitted to use anthropomorphism to describe Himself and humans are not permitted to use anthropomorphism to describe Him. But that would be a contradiction because once Allah sets the standard of anthropomorphism, then Mohammed and his followers can not avoid it. It becomes the standard.

1. ishaaq bin raahooyah (also pronounced raahawaih by some) said, "certainly, anthropomorphism would be if he said: hand like my hand, or hearing like my hearing. then this is anthropomorphism. as for if he said just as Allah said: hand and hearing and sight, then he did not say “how” or “the likes of…” then this is not anthropomorphism. Allah, exalted is He, said, “nothing is like His likes, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.”

If it were true that nothing is like His like and His hearing is not hearing and His seeing is not seeing then it couldn’t be described with those words. But they must somehow be like those things otherwise another word would be chosen or invented to convey the different meaning.

if establishment of the state of being above for Allah, its meaning was anthropomorphism, then certainly, everyone who established the other attributes for Allah, exalted is He, such as His being living, capable, hearing, seeing, etc. would be an anthropomorphist also. and this is not what a muslim from those who attribute themselves today to the people of sunnah and the group (ahl as-sunnah wal-jamaa’ah) speaks of, contrary to the negators of the attributes, the mu’tazilites and others.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Apparently there are some Muslims who agree with me that the Quran contains anthropomorphisms of Allah.

…

[in minhaaj as-sunnah (p.80), ibn taimiyyah] said, "and the intent here is that the people of sunnah are in agreement that Allah - nothing is like His likes, not in His essence, not in His attributes, not in His actions. however, the word anthropomorphism in the speech of the people is a general word. for if it is meant by negating anthropomorphism is what is negated by the Quran and the intellect indicates, then this is truth, for surely, the Lord’s specifics, exalted is He, is nothing from the creation is likened in anything from His attributes… and if it is meant by anthropomorphism that nothing of the attributes are established for Allah, then it cannot be said that He has knowledge, nor ability, nor life because the slave (i.e., the human being) is described by these attributes. thus, it necessitates that it is not said for Him: living, knowledgeable or able because the slave is called by these names, and similarly with regards to His speech, His hearing, His sight, His being seen and other than that. they agree with the people of sunnah that Allah is existant, living, knowledgeable and capable. and the created being, it is said for him: existant, living, knowledgeable and capable. and it is not said that this antropomorphism whose negation is obligated."here are some statements from the scholars of islam regarding anthropomorphism taken from ash-shaikh naasir ad-deen al-albaanee’s introduction of the book, mukhtasir al-'uloo lil-'alee al-ghaffaar (summary of [the book of] transcendence for the High, the Oft-forgiving) by al-imam adh-dhahabee.

This seems to say that an anthropomorphism is not an anthropomorphism because it is contained in the Quran. That is simply denial of the truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

1. yes, we believe it is actual.

Ok.

1. irrelevant.

Not if you are trying to learn the truth.

1. you will when you receive your records on the day of judgement.

I take it you mean each individual will read his record at the last day or the judgement.

1. already answered.

I must have missed it.

death is an abscence of life, a deficiency. mastery over death is simply not dying.

No. Actually, death is a part of life. It is a transition between life in the flesh and life in the Spirit.

everything in creation shall taste death, except the human soul, for that remains after one dies. your belief makes Allah no different from His creation.

That is true. Allah willed to become perfect man in order to save men from the eternal punishment in hell.

and here i thought that you catholics believed that death was a punishment from Allah due to adam and eve’s eating from the tree.

You are correct. It is a punishment for Adam and Eve’s sin. It is a transition from life in the flesh to life in the Spirit which we would not have to undergo if Adam and Eve had not sinned.

or is that yet another contradiction in your beliefs?

It is not contradictory at all. I believe I have explained it satisfactorily above.

now where on earth did you get this idea that islamic belief is that Allah did not have a reason for creating creation? i reemphasise your need to learn islamic beliefs through their proper channels. it’s clear you don’t have a clue.

Perhaps. But unless you respond intellegently and with details all I can do is point out that the only thing you’ve done is again resort to insult.

thank you for displaying just how confusing your belief in Allah is. i restate what i stated in another post:

                          you believe that Allah is one of three *and* three in one at the same time;

Correct. God is the master of space and time and is not mastered by space and time. He is a Trinity of Persons and His Trinity is reflected in all the universe.

On the other hand, Allah is not a Trinity but one dimensional. The only place where one dimensional concepts exist are in human imaginations.

that Allah came to earth in the form of jesus, the anointed one; that Allah was the begotten son of Himself;

Correct. In the past, Muslims have always used the word begotten as synonymous with sexual intercourse. I will make this clarification here. Begotten does not mean sexual intercourse.

that Allah died on the cross in order to bear the burden of the sins of His own creation.

Correct. God loves us so much that He gave His only begotten Son that those who beieve in Him might live and not die.

 

[De_Maria]

whereas we believe that Allah is free from all of this;

Free from any responsiblity for man?

that Allah is one, alone in His divinity, in His right to be worshipped, in His absolute beauty and perfection;

This is also Catholic doctrine.

that He does not beget, nor was He begotten;
that jesus the anointed one was one of His righteous slaves,

Can you explain, why, in Islamic theology is Jesus born of a virgin? Is there no reason for this? Is it again, an example of Allah doing something which has no intelligible purpose?

a prophet and messenger sent among the children of israel;

This is also Catholic doctrine.

that Allah is Everliving and never dies; and that Allah is fair and just

This sounds like Catholic doctrine also.

and has made it such that no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another.

Here, is another example of Muslim theoligical contradiction.

Now Muslims say that one man will not bear another’s burden’s. Yet, when Adam and Eve were dismissed from Eden, their children were also dismissed. Or else, why isn’t humanity still in Eden and the only ones absent Adam and Eve? Therefore Adam and Eve’s children were punished the same way that Adam and Eve were punished.

On the other hand, the Catholic doctrine of original sin, which Muslims repudiate, teaches that Adam and Eve were punished by exile from Eden and thus their children inherited what Adam and Eve had. That is the normal course of life. If a man has a million dollars and dies, his children inherit his wealth. Adam and Eve lost their wealth and their children could no longer inherit what they once had.

Now Muslims also contradict their statement that no man will bear another’s burdens in another fashion. Muslims are instructed to be merciful and to give alms. In this way, they bear one another’s burdens.

Jesus, in bearing our burdens was simply giving us an example to follow.

It is written:John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

yeah, that makes perfect sense…

Catholic theology does make perfect sense.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness” ;

btw, Allah willing, this shall be my last post to this thread.

May God bless you and lead you to eternal truth,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

exoflare:

De Maria,

Two things… One, this guy has already proved all too many times how much he is willing to settle for evasive and condescending responses as a last resort. If you’re going to bother responding to him at all, itt’s probably best to keep it limited to one subject at a time so that way there’s less room for him to try weaseling out of the topic at hand.

Second, I think you’re going from point A to point D in your explanations considering of how much Muslims understand about God anyway. I wouldn’t hold your breath on them grasping the type of stuff you talked about in the above quotes until they can at least prove a knowledge of the basics. What you said above assumes too much prior knowledge of terminology and foundational Christian beliefs on the part of the reader, IMO.

Hi,

thanks for your supportive comments.

I’ll keep #1 in mind.

As for # 2, you would be surprised how many muslims actually study the Bible. Many of them consider it the Word of God and try to force Islamic meaning to its passages.

Many of them, however, study it in order to contradict it. But they are very much aware of Chrisitan doctrine. Most of the ones that I’ve talked to are more familiar with Protestant doctrine and have not considered Catholic doctrine at all. I think they believe that Luther disproved Catholic doctrine and therefore they have contempt for the teachings of the Catholic Church. I think they also have more in common with Protestants because they believe in Sola Scriptura. Like Protestants, the Muslims I have talked to have no concept of a teaching Church.

Anyway, thanks again for your supportive comments.

May God bless you and keep you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[r.gonzales]

sorry, i couldn’t resist but post again. hopefully, this will be my final post as this discussion is clearly headed nowhere. the more i read your posts, the more it’s clear that you don’t understand what you read and you provide many examples lending support to that, as you can see below.
De Maria:

Obviously, the best you can do is resort to insult. I think my reasonable arguments have shown the flaws in Islamic doctrine.

there is nothing reasonable about your arguments here. they’re all based on misconceptions and faulty logic. your doctrine of the trinity makes no sense whatsoever and those who claim that it does and honestly believe that have a warped sense of logic, this is fact and the reason why you and many others have to concoct fanciful elaborate explanations in order to try to make it look like it does.
De Maria:

I am not stating Sufi belief. As far as I am concerned they are Muslims. They base their beliefs on the Quran.

yes you are stating sufi belief because they hold the exact same belief as you do, that Allah exists everywhere and in everything, and is in essence the only thing that exists in reality. and no, they don’t base their beliefs on the Quran, the base their beliefs on the same philosophical mumbo jumbo (oops there’s that word again) that you based yours off of.
De Maria:

1. That Allah is separate from creation, you are still arguing that and so continually confirm it.
2. That Allah is closer than your jugular vein. You confirmed this doctrine and provided evidence to explain how it did not contradict the first. Unfortunately, the evidence you provided only proved more contradictory and introduced the theory of the Allah’s knowledge being omnipresent and Allah’s presence being restricted to outside of creation.
3. That Allah calls Himself We because He considers Himself united to HIs angels and this violates the doctrine that Allah is to be united to no one. This you brought up.
4. That Allah’s mercy is greater than his anger which violates the oneness of Allah and the fact that Allah does not show mercy to all, but condemns many.

all proof that you either don’t read carefully, or don’t understand what you’re reading. and what highlights this fact even more is that you think that i said Allah considers Himself united to His angels. try reading what was posted again and see if you can understand it next time.

as for point 4, fact that Allah does not show mercy at all??? i’m not sure where you got that from, since it is definitely not from islamic beliefs. not to mention the fact that it contradicts reality as we know it. for it is Allah who provides and sustains His creation, giving mankind their provisions despite their continual disobedience of Him and His commandments. it is Allah who sent revelation along with His prophets and messengers to warn us and guide us to His chosen path.
De Maria:

Please be more precise. As far as I am aware, I have avoided nothing which you have posted except the one which I thought was a cut and paste job.

more precise? what do you think it was that i was referring to if not the assumed cut and paste quote? which is painfully clear for anyone following the discussion … just another indication that you don’t read carefully or are confused. :nope:

con’t…

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

Whether Allah or Mohammed used human terms to describe Allah that does not change the fact that it is anthropormorphism.

If Allah used the word hand to describe an apendage on His Spiritual body, then Allah used anthropomorphism to describe Himself. The best you can argue is that Allah is permitted to use anthropomorphism to describe Himself and humans are not permitted to use anthropomorphism to describe Him. But that would be a contradiction because once Allah sets the standard of anthropomorphism, then Mohammed and his followers can not avoid it. It becomes the standard.

If it were true that nothing is like His like and His hearing is not hearing and His seeing is not seeing then it couldn’t be described with those words. But they must somehow be like those things otherwise another word would be chosen or invented to convey the different meaning.

your flaw is that you think that the “hand” is a characteristic or attribute specific to humans when it’s not. as i’ve mentioned earlier in this thread there are other creatures, as well as other inanimate objects, that have “hands”. and the same goes with a number of other descriptions and characteristics; such as life, sight, hearing, feeling, ability, etc. none of these are attributes that are specific to humans, thus to describe Allah with these things, just as He has described Himself with, is not anthropomorphism. as one of the scholars mentioned in the quote i posted, anthropomorphism is to say that Allah’s hands are like human hands, or that His hearing is like human hearing, or that His ability is like human ability.
De Maria:

I have no idea what you are talking about. Apparently there are some Muslims who agree with me that the Quran contains anthropomorphisms of Allah.

this just adds to the overwhelming proof that you don’t understand much of what’s involved here. try reading his statement again and you will see that he demonstrates that describing Allah with descriptions and attributes that He himself has used for Himself is not anthropomorphism.
De Maria:

No. Actually, death is a part of life. It is a transition between life in the flesh and life in the Spirit.

it is a part of the life of the created. this does not change the fact that death is an abscence of life. when you die, you cease to live. plain and simple. and as i mentioned, we muslims do not believe that Allah dies at all whereas you believe that Allah died, regardless of what form this death was. plain and simple fact, you believe that Allah died. this is an imperfection and deficiency in your belief of your Creator.
De Maria:

You are correct. It is a punishment for Adam and Eve’s sin. It is a transition from life in the flesh to life in the Spirit which we would not have to undergo if Adam and Eve had not sinned.

every created thing shall taste death. this includes adam and eve before they sinned, had they not sinned, they still would have tasted it.
De Maria:

I believe I have explained it satisfactorily above.

far from it…
De Maria:

Correct. God is the master of space and time and is not mastered by space and time. He is a Trinity of Persons and His Trinity is reflected in all the universe.

On the other hand, Allah is not a Trinity but one dimensional. The only place where one dimensional concepts exist are in human imaginations.

thanks for more demonstration of just how confusing, irrational and illogical your beliefs are.
De Maria:

Correct. In the past, Muslims have always used the word begotten as synonymous with sexual intercourse. I will make this clarification here. Begotten does not mean sexual intercourse.

yet another example of your ignorance regarding islamic beliefs. begotten simply means to be born. we do not believe that Allah was born, whereas you do. you believe that Allah was born in the form of jesus, begotten by mary.
De Maria:

that Allah is one, alone in His divinity, in His right to be worshipped, in His absolute beauty and perfection;

This is also Catholic doctrine.

no it’s not. catholic doctrine is that Allah is three. and regardless of your illogical explanations, you still believe that Allah is three persons.

con’t…

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

Can you explain, why, in Islamic theology is Jesus born of a virgin? Is there no reason for this? Is it again, an example of Allah doing something which has no intelligible purpose?

jesus’ birth was a miracle and a sign of his prophethood and proof that he was sent by Allah and not just some false prophet.
De Maria:

that Allah is Everliving and never dies; and that Allah is fair and just

This sounds like Catholic doctrine also.

nope, catholic doctrine, and almost christian doctrine as a whole, is that Allah died on the cross. that’s far from never dying. never dying means that He is everliving and never dies, regardless of what form that death occurs.
De Maria:

Here, is another example of Muslim theoligical contradiction.

Now Muslims say that one man will not bear another’s burden’s. Yet, when Adam and Eve were dismissed from Eden, their children were also dismissed. Or else, why isn’t humanity still in Eden and the only ones absent Adam and Eve? Therefore Adam and Eve’s children were punished the same way that Adam and Eve were punished.

the reply to your assumptions lie here: netmuslims.com/info/adam.html, in the story of adam as found in the book stories of the prophets, by ibn katheer.

adam and eve’s children would have been punished for their parents’ sin if they had been alive at the time of their descent from paradise to earth. however, we believe that they were born on earth, not in paradise. at the time of their transgression, adam and eve were the only humans created. secondly, we believe that earth was the intended dwelling place for mankind, as Allah says in the Quran, “surely, i am a Placer of a deputy/successor on the earth.” (2:30). we also believe that Allah forgave adam and eve for their failing.
De Maria:

Now Muslims also contradict their statement that no man will bear another’s burdens in another fashion. Muslims are instructed to be merciful and to give alms. In this way, they bear one another’s burdens.

muslims are obligated to pay alms as a means of purifying their wealth and as a means of helping those who are less fortunate than themselves. they are not being punished for the sins of others, sins that they had no part in, which is what that verse refers to.

and with that, i bid you adieu for now…

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

sorry, i couldn’t resist but post again. …

there is nothing reasonable about your arguments here. they’re all based on misconceptions and faulty logic. your doctrine of the trinity makes no sense whatsoever and those who claim that it does and honestly believe that have a warped sense of logic, this is fact and the reason why you and many others have to concoct fanciful elaborate explanations in order to try to make it look like it does.

This is reasonable argument? We are misguided because you say we are misguided? You were doing better when you said everything was mumbo jumbo.

yes you are stating sufi belief because they hold the exact same belief as you do, that Allah exists everywhere and in everything, and is in essence the only thing that exists in reality. and no, they don’t base their beliefs on the Quran, the base their beliefs on the same philosophical mumbo jumbo (oops there’s that word again) that you based yours off of.

Proof? Logical argument? Can you offer anything besides ad hominems?

all proof that you either don’t read carefully, or don’t understand what you’re reading. and what highlights this fact even more is that you think that i said Allah considers Himself united to His angels. try reading what was posted again and see if you can understand it next time.

Apparently you have no idea what the word proof means.

as for point 4, fact that Allah does not show mercy at all???

What you have proven here is that you don’t read carefully and that you don’t understand what you read.

Please go back and reread what I said, which is:
4. That Allah’s mercy is greater than his anger which violates the oneness of Allah and the fact that Allah does not show mercy ** to all**, but condemns many.

i’m not sure where you got that from, since it is definitely not from islamic beliefs. not to mention the fact that it contradicts reality as we know it. for it is Allah who provides and sustains His creation, giving mankind their provisions despite their continual disobedience of Him and His commandments. it is Allah who sent revelation along with His prophets and messengers to warn us and guide us to His chosen path.

more precise? what do you think it was that i was referring to if not the assumed cut and paste quote? which is painfully clear for anyone following the discussion … just another indication that you don’t read carefully or are confused. :nope:

So far, all you did in this message is insult, mischaracterize and create straw men which you could knock down. You did not address my statements at all. Hopefully your others will be better.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

your flaw is that you think that the “hand” is a characteristic or attribute specific to humans when it’s not… none of these are attributes that are specific to humans, thus to describe Allah with these things, just as He has described Himself with, is not anthropomorphism. …

If we say that a cow has hands, we are speaking anthropomorphically even though monkeys also have hands. A monkey’s hands are so called because humans have hands and a clock’s hands are so called because humans have hands. They are all anthropomorphisms.

this just adds to the overwhelming proof that you don’t understand much of what’s involved here. try reading his statement again and you will see that he demonstrates that describing Allah with descriptions and attributes that He himself has used for Himself is not anthropomorphism.

It is a very plain and simple concept. You will not make it go away just because you deny it.

it is a part of the life of the created.

Correct.

this does not change the fact that death is an abscence of life.

For the body, true.

when you die, you cease to live. plain and simple.

Then, when I asked you about the soul, you must have a different understanding of the soul than we do. Does your soul die according to Islamic theology?

As Catholics, we believe we are endowed with an immortal soul.
: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1703 preview document matches
Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, the human person is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake.”

and as i mentioned, we muslims do not believe that Allah dies at all whereas you believe that Allah died, regardless of what form this death was. plain and simple fact, you believe that Allah died. this is an imperfection and deficiency in your belief of your Creator.

You consider this an imperfection. We do not. It is God showing His mastery over death. It is one of Jesus miraculous signs that He is God the Master of Life and the Master of all.

every created thing shall taste death. this includes adam and eve before they sinned, had they not sinned, they still would have tasted it.

Not according to Catholic teaching. Death came by sin. First and foremost came the separation of man’s soul from God. This is the first result of man’s sin and is described as death of the soul. Bodily death followed.

If Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have gone to heaven body and soul as Mary did.

far from it…

thanks for more demonstration of just how confusing, irrational and illogical your beliefs are.

Thanks for proving again that you have no idea how to provide logical argument but can only resort to insult.

yet another example of your ignorance regarding islamic beliefs. begotten simply means to be born. we do not believe that Allah was born, whereas you do. you believe that Allah was born in the form of jesus, begotten by mary.

Most Muslims that I have debated with have stated that begotten means having sex. If I have an ignorance towards Islamic beliefs, it is Muslims who have taught me these beliefs.

Yes, we believe that Jesus was born of Mary.

no it’s not. catholic doctrine is that Allah is three. and regardless of your illogical explanations, you still believe that Allah is three persons.

At least you got that right. Three persons, but not three Gods. Yes we do believe in one God in three Divine Persons.

Even the Quran points to the Trinity of God. Allah calls Himself “We”, not because of any cocamaimee theory about angels or Royal Plurals but because Mohammed knew that the God of the Bible called Himself “We” and spoke of Himself with plural pronouns. He had to copy this form of speaking to make himself appear a legitimate prophet. But the God of the Bible uses the plural form in speaking of Himself for a very good reason, He is three persons in one Divine God.

Does the Angel Gibreel tell Mary that “His son is without sin”? Whose son does the Quran refer to?
Does the Quran say that Jesus breathed life into a bird? Who gives life but Allah?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

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[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

jesus’ birth was a miracle and a sign of his prophethood and proof that he was sent by Allah and not just some false prophet.

So Allah put His Spirit in Mary and she conceived. Is that what the Quran states?

nope, catholic doctrine, and almost christian doctrine as a whole, is that Allah died on the cross. that’s far from never dying. never dying means that He is everliving and never dies, regardless of what form that death occurs.

Nope. You are stating what you want to believe, but that is not the truth. Yes, Allah, God the second person of the Holy Trinity died on the Cross. But that does not mean that Allah ceased to exist. God is everlasting to everlasting.

the reply to your assumptions lie here: netmuslims.com/info/adam.html, in the story of adam as found in the book stories of the prophets, by ibn katheer

Reply to my assumptions directly. I don’t have time to research that confusing forum.

adam and eve’s children would have been punished for their parents’ sin if they had been alive at the time of their descent from paradise to earth. however, we believe that they were born on earth, not in paradise. at the time of their transgression, adam and eve were the only humans created. secondly, we believe that earth was the intended dwelling place for mankind, as Allah says in the Quran, “surely, i am a Placer of a deputy/successor on the earth.” (2:30). we also believe that Allah forgave adam and eve for their failing.

Then when Allah warned Adam that if Adam ate of the tree he would be condemned to the place of the evil doers, what did that mean?

And why did Allah also say, if you obey while on earth, then you will be given a place in paradise?

Is this not from the Quran?
We said: “O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimeen (wrongdoers).”

Then the Satan made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: “Get you down all with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time.”

muslims are obligated to pay alms as a means of purifying their wealth and as a means of helping those who are less fortunate than themselves. they are not being punished for the sins of others, sins that they had no part in, which is what that verse refers to.

Thanks for the clarification. So burden means punishment in this verse?

and with that, i bid you adieu for now…

Goodbye,

sincerely,

De Maria

 

[timur]

De Maria:

So Allah put His Spirit in Mary and she conceived. Is that what the Quran states?

Nope. You are stating what you want to believe, but that is not the truth. Yes, Allah, God the second person of the Holy Trinity died on the Cross. But that does not mean that Allah ceased to exist. God is everlasting to everlasting.

Reply to my assumptions directly. I don’t have time to research that confusing forum.

Then when Allah warned Adam that if Adam ate of the tree he would be condemned to the place of the evil doers, what did that mean?

And why did Allah also say, if you obey while on earth, then you will be given a place in paradise?

Is this not from the Quran?
We said: “O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimeen (wrongdoers).”

Then the Satan made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: “Get you down all with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time.”

Thanks for the clarification.

Goodbye,

sincerely,

De Maria

 

[timur]

So burden means punishment in this verse?
I have to tell you that your catolicisam has became hinduizam or better tell it vedantizam and interesting if you realy was considering accepting islam it would be burden for you and with that and punisment becose God has enough evidence prepered for you and every muslim is a witnes againts you…and every angel…and Quran is a witnes …prepere to die soon becose on the judgment day there will be no helper for you .Just YOU and God.think about it.if you are not affreid of this sitution post another comentthere is an answer for those ignorant like you.let Allah guide hearts of the just ones.

 

[cute2904]

timur:

interesting if you realy was considering accepting islam it would be burden for you and with that and punisment becose God has enough evidence prepered for you and every muslim is a witnes againts you…and every angel…and Quran is a witnes …prepere to die soon becose on the judgment day there will be no helper for you .Just YOU and God.think about it.if you are not affreid of this sitution post another comentthere is an answer for those ignorant like you.let Allah guide hearts of the just ones.

Why should we accept Islam anyway? Oh of course no helper for us in the day of judgment. Not even for you. We and God alone. You have your own way to God and we have our own way to God. Why so desperate judging Christians here by using your own books while we dont believe it. not SINGLE verse of it?
BTW, God alerady guide my heart.

 

[timur]

I see u are trying to soften this up but sorr y God says in the Quran109.1 . Say : O disbelievers!

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لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ
109.2 . I worship not that which ye worship ;

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وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
109.3 . Nor worship ye that which I worship .

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وَلَا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ
109.4 . And I shall not worship that which ye worship .

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وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
109.5 . Nor will ye worship that which I worship .

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لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ
109.6 . Unto you your religion , and unto me my religion .