**The Necessary Reality Argument**

[IWantGod]

There’s one very important difference between you and I…I don;t have preconceptions.

No, the difference between you and i is that i know how to reason and you don’t, that’s why you are forever trapped in your own head.

 

[IWantGod]

Well then I’m quite certain that I have nothing to teach you…so sorry to have bothered you.

Its all in your own head so the only person you are bothering is yourself.

 

[Hugh_Farey]

I suppose it’s a cop out to say I think you’re both right?

If, as lisaandlena suggest, every past, present and future state of the universe is known to God, then I think there probably is at lease a sense in which all these states actually exist. There might may also be another set of states which include every possible past, present and future state of the universe, regardless of whether they have actually occurred or will actually occur. There is a sense, slightly different from the previous one, in which all these potential (or failed potential) states can also be said to exist. Alternatively, we could simply say that only the ‘Now’ actually exists, and that all the other states are not actual.

1. ‘Now’. An actual state we could agree on?
2. Past events. These were actual when they were ‘Nows’, but may no longer be.
3. Future events. These will be actual when they become ‘Nows’ but may not be at the moment.
4. Past possible events which did not, in fact, occur. These never became ‘Nows’, but their very possibility suggest they have an existence of some kind.
5. Future possible events which will not, in fact, occur. These will never become ‘Nows’, but their very possibility suggest they have an existence of some kind.

Which if these ‘states of the universe’ is ‘actual’ is a matter of definition rather than reason, I think.

Anyway, from a human (and no doubt other beings) point of view, the universe certainly transitions from one state to another, which we may call change. Even if all the states already in some sense exist unchanging, the transition that I detect is what I call change. The change is not in the states themselves, but the name I give to the transition between them. And surely God appreciates all this, and so to that extent acknowledges that change exists.

Signed: the Master… (LOL)

 

[IWantGod]

If, as lisaandlena suggest, every past, present and future state of the universe is known to God, then I think there probably is at lease a sense in which all these states actually exist.

Yes, but i think its important to understand the context in which they exist. Everything that will ever happen is present to God in its entirety. So yes, they are all actual to God, but God only perceives it that way because his being and nature relative to the being and nature of the universe allows God that special perspective. If you was a fifth dimensional being, perhaps you too would perceive time in a similar way. But that does not change the fact that the perceived events involve change or had a beginning.even if from a particular perspective the transitioning from one potential state to another is not experienced directly.

Lisa would like to think that these changes in perspective imply that the universe does not really change at all, but not only is there no justifiable reason to think this but also it flies in the face of science and direct human experience to the point of logical contradiction.

If you look up at a plane in the sky, it appears to be moving slowly. If you look at the moon, it doesn’t appear to be moving at all. Should i assume that the moon does not spin and planes move very slowly through the sky? Hell, we don’t even experience the fact that that our planet is spinning and moving. I look at my chair, the wood isn’t moving, but if you view it from the perspective of the atoms it is made of it is clear that the chair on some level is moving. Think the general theory of relativity as an imperfect analogy, where time moves differently depending on how fast a being is moving. Perspective and relationship can dramatically change how time is perceived. For a fifth dimensional being, time would probably appear more like a purely spatial dimension and one could be forgiven for thinking it to be eternal, and yet at the same time one would be correct to say that the universe including space and time had a beginning and is not eternal…