The Necessity of Baptism

[guanophore]

Cornelius was justified prior to Baptism,

Really? At what point was that?

And why did Peter feel obligated to provide water baptism to him and his household?

the thief was not baptized,

That is debatable. Not only may he have been baptized by John, but he also may have been baptized by one of the Apostles, and in any case, he was certainly baptized in blood.

But God is not bound by the sacraments. They are His gift to us.

Paul said he did not come to baptize but too preach the gospel…how to you reconcile all that with your teaching?

Simple. Just look at the statement in context. Compare all the other statements that Paul makes about baptism. It is clear that he believes in it, for himself, and all converts.

That is your opinion that I have been “ill taught”, but I will not condescend to personal opinion.

It is not just a personal opinion, Seeking, but a fact. It is not any fault of your own. You are obviously very passionate and sincere about your faith. There may have been no way of knowing that you were separated from the Apostolic Teachings.

You all seem to be making the claim that a religious body, the Church, is infallible; I'm I seeing this or am I reading too much into these threads?

I think your perception is correct, except that I question your use of the term “religious” body. Jesus only founded One Church. He only has One Body. He is the head of that One Body, the Church. The Soul of that One Body is the HS. It is these divine elements of the Church that guarantee infallibility.

Most protestants suffer from a deficient view of the church, which is why the charism of infallibility is so difficult to accept.

I know Paul did baptize, but he is clearly separating in the mind of the reader that 1) people misunderstood water baptism

Well, yes and no. they rightly understood that baptism gave them membership. It was “into Christ” they became members, though, and aligning themselves according to who performed the baptism was mising the mark.

h e was sent to preach, because by hearing, then one can come to an understanding which leads to salvation.

Yes, and because his preaching was so powerful there was not enough hours in a day for him to baptize all those converts.

Would it make any sense at all for Paul to say that if it was so closely knit to salvation?

Actually, that is exactly why he says that. Baptism was an integral part of the conversion experience. All who came to believe were baptized. Clearly the Corinthians were using it as an occasion for quarreling among themselves.

This is clearly distinguishing the water versus the baptism by the Spirit; I don’t know why you can’t see that since Peter is clearly showing it is not the water “removal of dirt”, but the Spiritual.

A couple reasons. We have received the Apostolic Teaching that HS is not separated from the water for one. For another, Peter is using an analogy of the ark as a type of being saved “through water”. He then says that “baptism now saves” (burial in the water is being buried with Christ) but it is not for the purpose of getting dirt from the body, but from the conscience. Baptism, according to Apostolic Teaching, washes away sins, both original sin, and personal sin.

Heb 10:22-23
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The only explanation I have for people not understanding is what Scripture teaches, but is is truly amazing.

I cannot make sense out of this, sorry.

If you believe in your heart that water baptism saves you, then you don’t believe.

We believe what the Apostles taught ‘baptism…now saves you". We believe this because we believe we are saved by the shedding of Jesus’ blood on the cross, and baptism is the normative means by which Jesus instructed that we be joined to Him in death.

Rom 6:1-11
6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For he who has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I am not sure how it is possible to make any sense out of this passage, other than the Apostolic Teaching that we are united to His death through baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Show me! If you separate the two I agree; if you put them together, then show me.

This is kinda backwards. The Apostles never separated them, so Catholics never separated them. The American fundamentalist movement, not wanting to look so Catholic, separated them, then you are asking us to “put them together”? I think it is YOU that needs to put them together!

Sounds like you are agreeing; Matthew 7:13-14 speaks of a group of religious people; many are on the wrong path, the few are on the right bath…what I’m saying is that from experience. most of these would have been baptized, but only a few actually and really receive the Holy Spirit. See what I’m saying?

I see what you are saying, but there really is no grounds for it. The HS had not yet been poured out.

Where is that teaching of Jesus?

John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

On the contrary; justification will always precede water baptism for a true believer.

This is part of a modern innovation, but not the Teaching of the Apostles. The Apostles taught that they go together (the washing with water and the cleansing by spirit).

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Not separated.

This is the teaching of God.

No, it is a teaching of man. The Apostles were clear that we can be cut off, thrown into the fire and burned, or our names be blotted from the book of life. We can grieve the HS of God, and sin against the HS in a way that cannot be forgiven. Once we have become partakers of His grace, we can spurn the Son of God afresh.

Ask yourself this; Does active verb repentance act on the active tense forgiveness or does the past tense verb baptized?

I am sorry. Can you say this again in a different way?

You need to look at the tenses of each and in light of the biblical teaching of repentance, which is for forgiveness of sins.

I don’t think we really do need to do this. You see, we know that there is really no such thing as “biblical teaching”. When we hear this phrase, what we understand is that the reader has interpreted that the bible means a certain thing. The bible does not “teach”. People Teach. God gave teachers to the Church BECAUSE only people can teach. When a person refers to “biblical teaching”, then they are confessing that they have taught themselves in the light of their own understanding (most are seeking the direction of the HS at the time) or in the light of what they have been taught by someone else.

Acts 2:37-39

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Apostle is clear that when they are baptized in the name of Chrsit, they receive forgiveness of their sins, and the gift of the HS.

It it the outward symbol of the inward faith; it cannot not save;

This is what you have been taught. It emanates from an anti-catholic source.

if it did then God has changed from the OT to the NT;a new way of salvation.

No, but I can understand why you would perceive it that way, since, in your mind, you have separated the justifying work of the HS from the water to which Jesus joined it.

God does not and never will change the way people are saved.

Which truth, in and of itself, should tell you that what you have been taught about baptism is erroneous. There is no way that water, of itself, could “wash” a consicience clean. Only the HS, working in and through the elements could accomplish this.

You would be right to say that “putting mud in someones eye cannot make them see”. And, you would be right. But if Jesus put the mud, then said “go wash”, it becomes clear that it is God working in the mud, that makes it happen. Yet, He did not have to use the mud, did He? He did such things to show us that His grace works through the tangible and the mundane.

 

[fbl9]

You would be right to say that “putting mud in someones eye cannot make them see”. And, you would be right. But if Jesus put the mud, then said “go wash”, it becomes clear that it is God working in the mud, that makes it happen. Yet, He did not have to use the mud, did He? He did such things to show us that His grace works through the tangible and the mundane.

Something some people miss is the fact that Christ’s sacrifice was made with that which is created.He died in the flesh,which is a created thing.His atonement for us was made through that of which is of created.To say then that baptism by water does nothing bc it is a created thing (the water) does an injustice to Christ’s sacrifice in the flesh for us.

 

[franciscanhobbi]

God is not bound by the sacraments. He can save whoever He wants, however He wants. He commanded those who believe to be baptized, washing away sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.

Thank you, that cuts to the core. My fundamentalist sister asked me the question, and I didn’t know what to answer. Some of the responses were great, some (referring to grammar) were confusing.

 

[franciscanhobbi]

Jesus commanded for people to be baptized in order to become His disciples after His resurrection; not before. Matthew 28:19 Baptism washes away Original sin and personal sins on the soul. This could not happen until Jesus died on the cross because His death is what made it possible for us to be reconciled to God.

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord”

What about persons who died before Jesus arrived in history?

I wondered, since at the transfiguration Jesus was in glory and Moses and Elijah were speaking to him…since Jesus defined this event as the Kingdom of God (cit?) does that mean Moses and Elijah were already in heaven? If seeing Christ is heaven, I might think so…Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear”

God judged them by their works. People’s consciences told them the difference between right and wrong. Romans 2:14-16

No one could enter heaven until Jesus ascended into heaven after His resurrection. They had to wait in Abraham’s bosom (limbo) Luke 16:22-23 or else they were still in prison (purgatory). 1 Peter 3:18-20

SHW

 

[SHW]

I wondered, since at the transfiguration Jesus was in glory and Moses and Elijah were speaking to him…since Jesus defined this event as the Kingdom of God (cit?) does that mean Moses and Elijah were already in heaven? If seeing Christ is heaven, I might think so.

Hi Franciscan…

We are discussing this very thing about Enoch and Elias (Elijah) and Moses in this other thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4875835&postcount=221

Come on over and join us!

Pax,
SHW