The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Saint Augustine brilliantly commented on this in City of God XX.29:

Chapter 29.-Of the Coming of Elias Before the Judgment, that the Jews May Be Converted to Christ by His Preaching and Explanation of Scripture.

After admonishing them to give heed to the law of Moses, as he foresaw that for a long time to come they would not understand it spiritually and rightly, he went on to say, “And, behold, I will send to you Elias the Tishbite before the great and signal day of the Lord come: and he shall turn the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his next of kin, lest I come and utterly smite the earth.”

It is a familiar theme in the conversation and heart of the faithful, that in the last days before the judgment the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, by means of this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the law to them.

For not without reason do we hope that before the coming of our Judge and Saviour Elias shall come, because we have good reason to believe that he is now alive; for, as Scripture most distinctly informs us, he was taken up from this life in a chariot of fire.

When, therefore, he is come, he shall give a spiritual explanation of the law which the Jews at present understand carnally, and shall thus “turn the heart of the father to the son,” that is, the heart of fathers to their children; for the Septuagint translators have frequently put the singular for the plural number. And the meaning is, that the sons, that is, the Jews, shall understand the law as the fathers, that is, the prophets, and among them Moses himself, understood it.

For the heart of the fathers shall be turned to their children when the children understand the law as their fathers did; and the heart of the children shall be turned to their fathers when they have the same sentiments as the fathers.

The Septuagint used the expression, “and the heart of a man to his next of kin,” because fathers and children are eminently neighbors to one another.

Another and a preferable sense can be found in the words of the Septuagint translators, who have translated Scripture with an eye to prophecy, the sense, viz., that Elias shall turn the heart of God the Father to the Son, not certainly as if he should bring about this love of the Father for the Son, but meaning that he should make it known, and that the Jews also, who had previously hated, should then love the Son who is our Christ.

For so far as regards the Jews, God has His heart turned away from our Christ, this being their conception about God and Christ. But in their case the heart of God shall be turned to the Son when they themselves shall turn in heart, and learn the love of the Father towards the Son.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Nonetheless, coming back to the concept of fore-shadowing, in other words, based on the shadow of the approaching person, we can tell a few general things abour the person coming-- their size, shape, build, etc.

http://www2.uiah.fi/~kbattar/genuine-shadow.jpg

Do you recognise this shadow?

More importantly, if you did not actually see what was casting the shadow, would you be able to recognize the object that is being ‘fore-shadowed’ when you actually saw it face to face?

That’s pretty much how the Scriptures work.

Some basic information, albeit incomplete information, can be perceived– because it has been ‘fore-shadowed’. But we don’t know exactly what they look like until they come around the corner and stand fully revealed before us. We only have enough information fore-shadowed to recognize the event or person when they finally appear to us-- which is what Paul was talking about in Romans 16:25-26, Ephesians 3:4-5, Ephesians 3:9 & Colossians 1:25-26.

As I said before, there’s an important distinction between not understanding the full meaning of a prophetic utterance and the radical claim that no one even conceived of what the prophetic utterance spoke of. I’ll agree with you on the first point. But the the later point is simply absurd and makes no sense in light the apostles own words.

Consequently, Paul uses a similar analogy with the darkened glass in our Christian era too…
1 Corinthians 13:12:

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

John likewise speaks in a similar manner…
1 John 3:2:

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

As Hebrews 8:4-6 notes, even the earthly tabernacle fore-shadowed the heavenly one. The men who offered the gifts prescribed by the law served at a sanctuary that was a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle:

“See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You said it yourself. I put in bold type with whom this “new covenant” is established.

Yes. And I already stated that the Divded Kingdom of Judah and Israel in the Old Testament era seems to be symbolic of the Great Schism between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church in our New Testament era.

The timing of these separations within both eras seems to be almost identical when one superimposes the History of the Old Testament over the History of the New Testament.

Will you at least take a look at this and try to understand what I’m presenting?

As I already said above, this outline I linked to above emphasizes broad historical periods rather than specific events. Dates, which often depend on scholarly interpretation, are approximate. In other words, this timeline is by no means exact. Nonetheless, when one compares the general outline of the Old Testament in contrast to the general outline of the New Testament, a striking pattern of similarity does appear.

As I said before in reference to fore-shadowing, my theory is that just as some viewers of the Sixth Sense were led to see the film twice, in disbelief at how effectively they were misled by character interactions which could be interpreted in two completely different ways, I would likewise advance the idea that Judaism is currently watching their own ancient history being played back to them vicariously through Christianity.

Is it possible that the general outline of the history of Israel itself actually in some way mirrors the general outline of the history of the Church herself?

To be fair, I would be much more interested in criticism against the theory in question, something which I’m willing to listen to. Making the claim that the Hebrew Scriptures, however, are utterly silent, without even a hint or glimpse of the Church Age in Christ that we currently live in, is just incomprehensible within the light of Christian revelation.

You are, in fact, the only Christian I’ve ever conversed with who actually believes that the Church, the Body of Christ, was neither concealed or revealed in the Old Testament.

As far as I’m aware, not even Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses make this claim you’re making. And even Seventh Day Adventists, albeit in the New Testament, believe that the future history of the Church has been revealed fairly well in its fullness via their theory of the seven churches in revelation being representative of ages within the Christian Church as a whole.

I think this brings up a good question too:

Which denomination do you actually belong to anyway?

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Romans 16:25-26 “Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him” This passage you quoted actually says that the mystery hidden for long ages past was revealed and made known through the prophetic writings.

No, it doesn’t say it "was revealed and made known through the ancient, prophetic writings, that is, the ancient Hebrew prophets, but it was actually HIDDEN FROM THEM but is NOW manifested by the Scriptures of the N.T. prophets. He says the same thing in Eph. 3 and specifically states: “…which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has NOW been revealed TO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS IN THE SPIRIT…and to bring to light what is the ADMINISTRATION of the mystery which for ages has been HIDDEN IN GOD, who created all thing” (Eph. 3:5, 9). The administration of this unforeseen, church age was not revealed through the ancient Hebrew prophets. It is not found in their writings.

Before you go on please focus on what I am saying and what I am not saying. I am not saying that the coming of Messiah, and His work of salvation/redemption was not prophesied in the O.T.; I am not saying that He and His redemptive work on the cross was not prefigured by the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law, or foreshadowed in various “types” in the O.T., but that this Church age, the Church itself was not revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

What was not revealed through the O.T. prophets was that after the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King, He would instead build His Church (Matt. 16:18), calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles who personally believe in Him for salvation/justification, beginning with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, and that He would make them into ONE NEW MAN, reconciling them both in ONE BODY to God through the cross; a temple in the Lord whose foundation is not the ancient, Hebrew prophets (who knew nothing of it), but the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Himself being the corner stone (Eph. 2:15-15, 20-22).

**Continued to next post… **

 

[apophasis]

Continued from previous post….

Was it prophesied in the O.T. that Gentiles would be saved and participate in the glories of the Messianic, Kingdom to come on earth? YES!!! But throughout the writings of the O.T. prophets national Israel and the Gentile nations remain separate. Gentiles are ushered into the Messianic, Davidic Kingdom as Gentiles, and Jews as Jews. They do not become “one” as in the Body of Christ during this Church age. In fact, at that time the Gentiles nations play a subordinate role to national Israel, as Zechariah prophesied:Zech 8:20-23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, '{It will} yet {be} that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, “Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will also go.” So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD. "Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’"And Isaiah prophesied of Zion’s future glory at the time of Israel’s promised, Messianic Kingdom:Is. 59:20 - 60:1ff “A Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD. As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says the LORD: My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring, says the LORD, from now and forever. Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you. For behold, darkness will cover the earth and deep darkness the peoples; but the LORD will rise upon you and His glory will appear upon you. Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Lift up your eyes round about and see; they all gather together, they come to you. Your sons will come from afar, and your daughters will be carried in their arms. Then you will see and be radiant, and your heart will thrill and rejoice; because the abundance of the sea will be turned to you, The wealth of the nations will come to you…"And Isaiah goes on to say of Jerusalem in those days…Is. 60:10-12; 15-16 "Foreigners will build up your walls, And their kings will minister to you; for in My wrath I struck you, And in My favor I have had compassion on you. Your gates will be open continually; they will not be closed day or night, So that {men} may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish, and the nations will be utterly ruined…"Whereas you have been forsaken and hated with no one passing through, I will make you an everlasting pride, a joy from generation to generation. You will also suck the milk of nations and suck the breast of kings; then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob…"The ancient, Hebrew prophets saw the future glory of their nation’s earthly, Messianic Kingdom with its Savior/King reigning on David’s throne in Jerusalem, as promised by unconditional covenants (the Abrahamic, Davidic, Land & New Covenants). But they knew NOTHING of this Church age or the Church itself which Christ Himself is presently building. It began at Pentecost with the coming of the Spirit, and it will end with its being taken up to be with the Lord (as He promised) - this whole Church administration being revealed in Paul’s Epistles.

Yes, the glory of Israel’s Messiah/King and His redeeming work on the cross were prophesied by the ancient, Hebrew prophets, but the “Body/Bride of Christ” was not revealed through them. This demanded further divine revelation. That’s why Paul, who was taken up to the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2ff), speaks of his personal insight into this new, unforeseen administration regarding this entirely new and separate entity - the Church.

You see, the Church in Scripture is not some hierarchical organization headquartered in Rome, but a spiritual “body” of believers, made up of individual, believing Jews and Gentiles, called out from each successive generation since Pentecost, unto this present day. And as a “bride” waiting for her Betrothed, she will be taken up to be with her Lord when the “fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (see Rom. 11:25; 1 Thess. 4:14-18). Then the Lord will revert back to fulfilling His prophetic program for national Israel. That which was long ago revealed to the ancient, Hebrew prophets concerning their people and their nation.

You do a great disservice to the written Word of God when you go back into the O.T. Scriptures and allegorized those prophecies and covenants which literally belong to national Israel and you spiritually apply them to the Church.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

No, it doesn’t say it "was revealed and made known through the ancient, prophetic writings, that is, the ancient Hebrew prophets, but it was actually HIDDEN FROM THEM but is NOW manifested by the Scriptures of the N.T. prophets. He says the same thing in Eph. 3 and specifically states: “…which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has NOW been revealed TO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS IN THE SPIRIT…and to bring to light what is the ADMINISTRATION of the mystery which for ages has been HIDDEN IN GOD, who created all thing” (Eph. 3:5, 9). The administration of this unforeseen, church age was not revealed through the ancient Hebrew prophets. It is not found in their writings.

Like I said before, I disagree.

The ancient Hebrew prophets most certainly fore-saw a time when the glory of the Lord under his chosen Messiah would fill the whole earth. You are apparently trying to restrict the passages in question so ultra-literally so as to suggest that the Hebrew Prophets had absolutely no idea that a church age was even coming.

I’m sorry, but that’s just plain dumb-- and the prophets of God were not as dumb you’re making them out to be. Even the apostles’, when they were first being trained by Jesus, were not as dumb as you’re making out the Hebrew Prophets.

It’s one thing to admit that many Jews mistook the coming of the Messiah with a glorius victory against their enemies. Even I admit that the Lord’s apostles’ most certainly did make this mistake too. I’ve never even denied this part.

But it’s entirely another thing to say that many Jews had absolutely no idea that the Church age was even coming.

apophasis:

Before you go on please focus on what I am saying and what I am not saying. I am not saying that the coming of Messiah, and His work of salvation/redemption was not prophesied in the O.T.; I am not saying that He and His redemptive work on the cross was not prefigured by the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law, or foreshadowed in various “types” in the O.T., but that this Church age, the Church itself was not revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

I am focussing on what you’re saying and what your’re not saying.

On the one hand, you’re admitting that the coming of Messiah, His work of salvation/redemption, and His redemptive work on the cross were all in some way prefigured through various types in the O.T.

On the other hand, you’re claiming that the coming of Messiah, His work of salvation/redemption, and His redemptive work on the cross are fundamentally irrelevent to the coming of the Church Age.

You are claming that this Church age, the Church itself was not revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

I am claming that the Church age, the Church itself was indeed revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

You are effectively claiming that the coming of Messiah, His work of salvation/redemption, and His redemptive work on the cross are fundamentally irrelevent to the coming of the Church Age-- since you believe that this Church age, the Church itself was not revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

I am effectively claiming that the coming of Messiah, His work of salvation/redemption, and His redemptive work on the cross are very essential to the coming of the Church Age-- since I believe that this Church age, the Church itself was indeed revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Think about what you’re claming in this post…

apophasis:

What was not revealed through the O.T. prophets was that after the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King…

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King?

apophasis:

He would instead build His Church (Matt. 16:18)…

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah/King bringing about a new faith when he comes?

apophasis:

…calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles who personally believe in Him for salvation/justification…

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah/King calling out from both individual Jews and Gentiles who personally believe in Him for salvation/justification?

apophasis:

…beginning with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost…

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about God pouring out his Spirit in the last days?

apophasis:

…and that He would make them into ONE NEW MAN, reconciling them both in ONE BODY to God through the cross…

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah healing his people by his own wounds which he suffered for our sakes?

apophasis:

…a temple in the Lord whose foundation is not the ancient, Hebrew prophets (who knew nothing of it…

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the day when the Ark of the Covenant would be long forgotten-- or that God desired mercy more than sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings?

apophasis:

…but the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Himself being the corner stone (Eph. 2:15-15, 20-22).

I agree with you that the apostles and New Testament prophets were essential to the New Testament church, with Christ Himself being the corner stone. But I totally disagree with you that the Hebrew prophets had no idea this was coming. For that matter, based on your own respoonses, I’m not entirely sure if you actually do agree with the idea that the Hebrew prophets had no idea this was coming.

Could you be more specific about what you are claiming?

I’m honestly not sure where you draw the line between what you believe has been revealed and what is a so-called invention of man.

 

[Sixtus]

It’s been said that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. From a Christian perspective, probably nowhere is this more evident than in the Psalms.

Amen

I personally think the psalms are very beautiful.

Some seem to have a resonance to one’s own life.

 

[apophasis]

Like I said before, I disagree.

The ancient Hebrew prophets most certainly fore-saw a time when the glory of the Lord under his chosen Messiah would fill the whole earth.

When has the glory of the Lord filled the whole earth during this Church age? Mass amounts of people are still in spiritual darkness, and as this age waxes older this darkness will increase.

I’m sorry, but that’s just plain dumb-- and the prophets of God were not as dumb you’re making them out to be.

It has nothing to be with being “dumb.” Prophecy has nothing to do with the prophet’s intellect. Those prophets just we not given divine enlightenment pertaining to this Church age. It has nothing to do with their IQ.

Even the apostles’, when they were first being trained by Jesus, were not as dumb as you’re making out the Hebrew Prophets.

Just prior to Christ ascension back to heaven they asked"Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the Kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6)At that point they did not yet understand.

On the other hand, you’re claiming that the coming of Messiah, His work of salvation/redemption, and His redemptive work on the cross are fundamentally irrelevent to the coming of the Church Age.

I said nothing of the sort. Those who make up the Chuch, the Body/Bride of Christ are saved and justified by His redemptive work on the cross.

You are claming that this Church age, the Church itself was not revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

I am claming that the Church age, the Church itself was indeed revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

Then show me, without allegorizing their writings, where they reveal it.

You are effectively claiming that the coming of Messiah, His work of salvation/redemption, and His redemptive work on the cross are fundamentally irrelevent to the coming of the Church Age-- since you believe that this Church age, the Church itself was not revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

I claim no such thing and your logic is fundamentally flawed. Rather than just react with your emotions and accuse me of saying something I did not, THINK about it a while.

I am effectively claiming that the coming of Messiah, His work of salvation/redemption, and His redemptive work on the cross are very essential to the coming of the Church Age–

I do as well.

since I believe that this Church age, the Church itself was indeed revealed through those ancient, Hebrew prophets.

The two are not necessarily mutual.

 

[apophasis]

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King?

I didn’t say that, I said they did not prophesy about Christ building His Church, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles after the national rejection.

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah/King bringing about a new faith when he comes?

They prophesied about ISRAEL being given a new heart, according to the New Covenant God would make with that nation (Jer. 31:31ff), but knew nothing of this Church age when individual Jews and Gentiles would be made into ONE NEW BODY, the “Church,” which is the “Bride” of Christ. National Israel is never referred to as Messiah’s “Bride” by the O.T. prophets. He is revealed as its Redeemer, King and High Priest - not its “Bride.”

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah/King calling out from both individual Jews and Gentiles who personally believe in Him for salvation/justification?

Not as the “Church.” Jews and Gentiles will be saved and justified during the Millennium through faith, but the Church is a whole new entity being formed (since Pentecost), having a special, eternal relationship with the Son.

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about God pouring out his Spirit in the last days?

Didn’t say that either. But those Scriptures knew nothing of the Spirit baptizing individuals into the Body of Christ, the Church.

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah healing his people by his own wounds which he suffered for our sakes?

Didn’t say that, either.

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the day when the Ark of the Covenant would be long forgotten-- or that God desired mercy more than sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings?

You’re simply rambling now.

Could you be more specific about what you are claiming?

I have been very specific, but you’ve simply been resisting and not thinking. You’re too much on the defensive.

I’m honestly not sure where you draw the line between what you believe has been revealed and what is a so-called invention of man.

The invention of men is the non-biblical idea that the Church is the antitype of Israel, and the primary purpose of O.T. Israel was to be a type of the Church. In other words, the Church is now “spiritual Israel,” and she is the fulfillment of all the O.T. prophecies and Covenants literally given to national Israel through its prophets. But the Scriptures teach no such thing. And those who teach this idea can only back it up through an allegorical method of interpretation. IOW, ignoring what the Scriptures literally say, and spiritualizing them to conform to their preconceived idea.

The O.T. Hebrew prophets could not have prophesied about the split in the Church if they knew nothing of this Church age. And they didn’t. The Apostle Paul was the revelator of this previously, unforeseen age, through his Epistles.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I didn’t say that, I said they did not prophesy about Christ building His Church…

apophasis:

…calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles after the national rejection.

I’ve had a busy weekend and counldn’t respond in depth like usually do. I’m also getting ready for work right now too, so I still can’t reply as much as I want to.

But, just for starters, take at look at your statement above.

You are lumping so many things together in your attempt to defend your own position, that I think you’re making some gross errors.

For one, yes, the Hebrew prophets did prophesy about Christ building His Church. For two, the Hebrew prophets did likewise prophesy about God calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles after the national rejection.

For example, I’m sure you’re familiar with this passage…
Psalm 118:22:

The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone…

As Christians, we fully understand that this passage refers to Christ. Christ explains it as such…

He went on to tell the people this parable:

"A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed.

He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed.

He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.

"Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’

"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’

So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

“What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”

When the people heard this, they said, “May this never be!”

Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone?

Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.

What did the prophets mean apophasis when they said the stone the builders rejected has become the capstone?

Clearly, Jesus own words implies a strong continuum between the Old and the New, with the actions of the prophets being rejected reflecting the continued culmination of Israel’s national rejection of God via their ultimate rejection of his Messiah.

Acts Acts 4:11-12 emphasises this as well…

He is “the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.” Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Nonetheless, this rejection also directly applies Christ building his Church too. For example, in the New Testament, we read…
Matthew 16:18:

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

I’m not trying to argue about Peter’s primacy on this. I’m just trying to explain the basics to you before getting to the advanced information.

The analogy between stone which the builders rejected and the rock upon which Christ is building his church should be self-evident to you.

It’s not allegorizing anything. It’s allowing the Holy Spirit to illuminate your mind so that you may understand these things on multiple levels just as the Holy Spirit reveals them.

Anyway, I’ll be back tonight. I have much to say on this, such as the continuum between the Tower of Babel in contrast to the Day of Pentecost for example.

 

[Valke2]

My version of Psalm 118 is Jesus free. The stone is Israel and the builders are the world powers of the time. Egypt, Babylon and Assyria.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Before we go any further, let’s back up and read the entire paragraph you wrote…

apophasis:

What was not revealed through the O.T. prophets was that after the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King, He would instead build His Church (Matt. 16:18), calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles who personally believe in Him for salvation/justification, beginning with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, and that He would make them into ONE NEW MAN, reconciling them both in ONE BODY to God through the cross; a temple in the Lord whose foundation is not the ancient, Hebrew prophets (who knew nothing of it), but the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Himself being the corner stone (Eph. 2:15-15, 20-22).

There are your words, right?

If so, then let’s move on.

You specifically said…

you:

What was not revealed through the O.T. prophets was that after the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King…

Then I asked…

me:

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King?

To this you then replied…

you:

I didn’t say that, I said they did not prophesy about Christ building His Church, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles after the national rejection.

I know what you said.

You said that the idea of Christ building his Church after the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King was not revealed through the O.T. prophets.

I disagree. That’s basically what my whole reply is about.

---

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You also said, in regards to Christ building his Church after the after the national rejection…

you:

He would instead build His Church (Matt. 16:18)…

To this I asked…

me:

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah/King bringing about a new faith when he comes?

Then you replied…

you:

They prophesied about ISRAEL being given a new heart, according to the New Covenant God would make with that nation (Jer. 31:31ff), but knew nothing of this Church age when individual Jews and Gentiles would be made into ONE NEW BODY, the “Church,” which is the “Bride” of Christ. National Israel is never referred to as Messiah’s “Bride” by the O.T. prophets. He is revealed as its Redeemer, King and High Priest - not its “Bride.”

First of all, you seem to be finally admitting that the Hebrew prophets did indeed prophesy about ISRAEL being given a new heart according to the New Covenant God would make with that nation-- something which I’ve been stressing from the beginning.

Are you still insisting that this New Covenant is not actually refering to the Church, the very means by which Christ himself is indeed giving us a new heart according to the New Covenant that God made starting with the nation of Israel and speading out to the Gentile nations?

If so, why?

Second of all, I have to admit that you’ve added yet another dimension to this montage by noting the Bride analogy-- and claiming that National Israel is never referred to as Messiah’s “Bride” by the O.T. prophets.

But this too seems to be refuted by Isaiah 61:10 for example…

I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

A similar analogy can be seen in Jeremiah 2:1-2 by the way…

The word of the LORD came to me:

"Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem:

" 'I remember the devotion of your youth,
how as a bride you loved me
and followed me through the desert,
through a land not sown.

Israel was holy to the LORD,
the firstfruits of his harvest;
all who devoured her were held guilty,
and disaster overtook them,’ "

declares the LORD.

There’s also the matter of Ezekiel 16:1-14, which uses an explicit allegory of unfaithful Jerusalem in no uncertain terms. God often appears to communicate in language that human listeners should be able to understand.

Consequently, in this passage from Ezekiel 16:1-14, God most certainly appears to be speaking of himself as a lover jilted by his bride. In fact, he reminds his bride, Israel, that he had transformed her into a princess-- even though she began as only common clay of the nations around her.

Incidently, just as Isaiah 61:10, Jeremiah 2:1-2, and huge sections of Ezekiel chapter 16 point out, the Christian Scriptures most certainly use this same analogy, albeit the allegory of marriage as perfected in Christ.
Revelation 21:2:

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

If this passage from Revelation 21:2 speaks of his Church as his bride, then why don’t Isaiah 61:10, Jeremiah 2:1-2, and huge sections of Ezekiel chapter 16 not do the same?

It seems to me that the nation of Israel is often referred to in language very similar to ‘God’s Bride’ by the Old Testament prophets. Likewise, since Jesus is God, and since the Church is married to Christ, it seems to me that the ‘Bride of Christ’ is actually yet another continuum which descended from Israel herself-- the Bride of God.

---

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You also said…

you:

…calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles who personally believe in Him for salvation/justification…

Then I asked…

me:

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah/King calling out from both individual Jews and Gentiles who personally believe in Him for salvation/justification?

Then you said…

you:

Not as the “Church.” Jews and Gentiles will be saved and justified during the Millennium through faith, but the Church is a whole new entity being formed (since Pentecost), having a special, eternal relationship with the Son.

As a Catholic, I am ammillenial-- and I’m sure we disagree on this whole idea about the millennium too. But that’s not really the point of this discussion.

The point is, assuming you are correct for a moment, are you actually saying that people during the New Testament era are in a safer relationship with Christ than those whom would know him during this millenium?

Would the Jews and Gentiles that will apparently be saved and justified during the ‘millennium’ through faith not likewise have a special, eternal relationship with the Son?

If not, why not?

Like I said, I am Catholic and have distinctive views regarding the millennium-- Saint Augustine has expressed these thoughts very well and I agree with him.

Nonetheles, if your view is true, then this seems to indicate a regression away from God’s power by allowing people who were once in a special, eternal relationship with the Son during the Church age to suddently be dropped into a more precarious state in which later generations, generations who will know Christ face to face, could nonetheless lose their salvation during the millennium.

That doesn’t make any sense to me. I might be misunderstanding you here, so I would ask for further clarification on this if you could. You really do need to be clearer on this part.

---

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Now let’s continue…

you:

…beginning with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost…

In reponse to this, I asked…

me:

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about God pouring out his Spirit in the last days?

Then you said…

you:

Didn’t say that either. But those Scriptures knew nothing of the Spirit baptizing individuals into the Body of Christ, the Church.

And yet you did admit that the Hebrew prophets did indeed prophesy about ISRAEL being given a new heart according to the New Covenant God would make with that nation-- something which I’ve been stressing from the beginning.

Furthermore, why does Ezekiel 11:19 say…

I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

The Hebrew Prophet then continues and later says again in Ezekiel 36:26…

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Are you still insisting that this New Covenant is not actually refering to the Church, the very means by which Christ himself is indeed giving us a new heart according to the New Covenant that God made starting with the nation of Israel and speading out to the Gentile nations?

If so, why?

And why did Saint Peter quote Joel so much here?

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

In the last days, God says,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
​

Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved

.

You understand that the Day of Pentecost was a reversal of the Tower of Babel, something else in which the New is reflected in the Old, right?

In other words, just as people’s tongues became confused at the Tower of Babel, leading towards a global disunity amongst the peoples of the world (in order to save the peoples of the world from themselves), the Lord poured out his Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, and is currently leading the peoples of the world towards a unity in Christ through his Church (in order to, once again, save the peoples of the world from themselves).

Again, the New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed, just as I’ve been saying from the beginning.

No. You won’t find this specific reference within the Scriptures that clearly outlines this. That’s ok though. You also won’t find any specific references within the Scriptures themselves which specifically states that the Scriptures have fully expounded upon all things which the Scriptures themselves discuss either. I’ve yet to read a passage from Scripture which specifically says this.

Then again, I’ve yet to read a passage of Scripture which specifically says that the Scriptures are the only reliable means of knowing God’s will. I’m also still waiting for a passage of Scripture which specifically says the Scriptures autonomously interpret themselves too.

Oddly enough, the entire doctrine of Sola Scriptura seems to be suspiciously missing from the Scriptures and may in fact be very unscriptural.

Actually, I would go one step further and say that those who have upheld some form of Sola Scriptura have actually allegorized the true and literal meaning of the Scriptures away from the Living Witness of the Scriptural record-- that is, sola scripturists have unwittingly allegorized themselves away from the True Church which Christ himself instituted for our salvation.

What do you think?

Nonetheless, I can assure you that this mirror image concerning the confusion/restoration of language between the Tower of Babel and the Day of Pentecost is indeed a motion of the Holy Spirit which God himself has revealed-- a revelation which is not specifically explained in the Scriptures but can be understood from the Scriptures nonetheless.

Based on these passages, it seems clear that the Hebrew Scriptures knew something very specific of the Spirit baptizing individuals into the Body of Christ, the Church.

---

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You also said…

you:

…and that He would make them into ONE NEW MAN, reconciling them both in ONE BODY to God through the cross…

Then I asked…

me:

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the Messiah healing his people by his own wounds which he suffered for our sakes?

Then you said…

you:

Didn’t say that, either.

Really? I think you did say that.

Actually, you did that that-- there’s no doubt about this part either.

You said just above there that the Hebrew Prophets said nothing concerning that God would make them into ONE NEW MAN, reconciling them both in ONE BODY to God through the cross.

Do the passages from Isaiah not state that by his wounds we will be healed, even pierced for our iniquities?

Do the passages from Isaiah 52:14-15 not state the following?

Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness—

so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Who is this one man so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness?

What effects on the nations of the world did the Hebrew Prophets perceive would result due to the suffering of this one man?

How does this one man marred beyond human likeness sprinkle many nations for example?

The Hebrew Prophets most certainly did know something about how Christ would make them into ONE NEW MAN, reconciling them both in ONE BODY to God through the cross.

Isaiah 42:6 explains further…

I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles…

And, again, in Isaiah 49:6, we read the following…

It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.

The fullness of this revelation, a revelation that we are currently living in and expounding upon during our own Church age, explains it like this…
Ephesians 2:13-16:

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

---

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Now let’s conclude this…

you:

…a temple in the Lord whose foundation is not the ancient, Hebrew prophets (who knew nothing of it…

Then I asked…

me:

So you’re saying that the Hebrew Scriptures did not prophesy about the day when the Ark of the Covenant would be long forgotten-- or that God desired mercy more than sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings?

To this you retorted…

you:

You’re simply rambling now.

Getting tired yet?

No. I’m actually moving in the Spirit of a New Pentecost. You, however, are apparently still partially caught in the spirit of Babylon.

Now can you actually answer my questions?

First of all, are you actually trying to suggest that the Hebrew Prophets were honestly oblivious of the great changes that would come when the Messiah arrived?

If so, I don’t agree with this.

Second of all, are you actually trying to suggest that the Hebrew Prophets understood that the future temple in the Lord would have any foundation that is not based on the ancient, Hebrew prophets?

If so, I don’t agree with this either.

In fact, if you say yet for either of these questions, then why did Jesus say in Luke 10:24…

For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

How can these prophets and kings, according to Jesus’ own words, have longed to see and hear something they did not even expect to see and hear?

Look at Jesus’s words concerning Abraham…
John 8:56:

Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

How could Abraham have seen Jesus’ day and be glad when he did not actually understand what Jesus’s day would bring?

Why does Acts 3:21 say that he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets?

Doesn’t this imply some specific prior knowledge on the part of the ancient Hebrew prophets concerning the Church Age during which Christ would be in heaven until he returns?

Acts 3:25 also say that the apostles are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with their fathers. He even said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed’ – a promise which is continued through the Church age.

Doesn’t this imply some specific prior knowledge on the part of the ancient Hebrew prophets concerning the Church Age during which Christ would spread his kingdom throughout the world, for both Jews and Gentiles?

Romans 1:1-4 also says…

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 1:17 also says…

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Isn’t the passage “The righteous will live by faith” not from Habakkuk 2:4, likewise indicating something which has been known by the Hebrew Prophets from first to last?

Galatians 3:8 goes even further…

The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

As I asked above, how could Abraham have seen Jesus’ day and be glad when he did not actually understand what Jesus’s day would bring?

Wasn’t the gospel announced in advance to Abraham according to Galatians 3:8?

The mystery that you keep pointing out is not what you’re making it out to be.

The mystery that you keep pointing out is that, according to Ephesians 3:6, through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

And, in regards to the ancient prophets, 1 Peter 1:12 say that it was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

My apologies. But the prophets of old most certainly did understand the gospel. They were the ones who paved the way with their blood so that we might receive it. And I think that they deserve more respect and credit than you’re giving them.

---

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

To finish this off, you have concluded…

you:

…but the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Himself being the corner stone (Eph. 2:15-15, 20-22).

To which I responded and asked for further clarification…

me:

I agree with you that the apostles and New Testament prophets were essential to the New Testament church, with Christ Himself being the corner stone. But I totally disagree with you that the Hebrew prophets had no idea this was coming. For that matter, based on your own respoonses, I’m not entirely sure if you actually do agree with the idea that the Hebrew prophets had no idea this was coming.

Could you be more specific about what you are claiming?

Now you’ve apparently responded with…

you:

I have been very specific, but you’ve simply been resisting and not thinking. You’re too much on the defensive.

I’ve already revealed the Babylon/Pentecost analogy to you.

I’ve also revealed the bread and wine throughout the Old Testament which carried over into the New Testament era.

Actually, I’ve revealed a lot of things to you in this thread, some of which you might be honestly hearing for the first time.

Are you aware of the similarities between Moses and Jesus?

If not, let me know and I’ll explain this to you as well.

In the meantime, let me make this fairly clear: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed.

Now unless you have something substantial to offer to counter this, I’m really not sure what else we can debate here.

Hopefully what I’ve revealed to you by the Holy Spirit will take root into your heart and will lead you to the Catholic faith.

God bless you and take care.

 

[Zooey]

A couple of points:

First, rather briefly, I want to say to Apophasis, that you seem to be forgetting something about the OT prophets. You keep saying that “they knew nothing” about this present age…But, that is impossible! Why? Because they did not write their own thoughts, they wrote as the Holy Spirit gave them the words to write. Therefore, what they wrote was of all that had happened, was happening, & would yet happen after their day. Because God being the ultimate author of all Scripture, the OT knows the NT. Indeed, the OT knows of things yet to come, even now. We just don’t have the knowledge we need to understand it yet.

Second, I need to weigh in on something that I see happening here. This is something that few Catholics can be expected to be familiar with, but which pops up in fundamentalist circles on a regular basis.
There is a picture that is printed, over & over, in books abot premillenial/pretribulational prophecy. It is a picture of a man in the dress of biblical times, with his hand to his face, shading his eyes from the sun as he stands in a desert, looking out across a ravine in the sand at another dune the height of the one he is on.
Under/next to/otherwise accompanying this picture is an explantion of the pic. It says, that this is a prophet of the OT, looking out across time at the future, seeing the end of time, but with the Church Age hidden in the ravine…
I have to have seen this pic (or a variation thereof) at least a thousand times…What I have never seen, not once, is any biblical backing for the statement that this is a graphic of the prophets of old…
The picture seems to be drawn, in fact, to distract the reader from the fact that there is **absolutely no such biblical statement at **all. Not one. Not anywhere.
However, in reading from, or discussing with, people who follow a premillenial (esp. pretrib) interpretation of the Bible, they all will draw on this illustration to “prove” that their opinion is the truth. The picture, IMHO, has taken on a kind of strangely canonical status of its own. It may not be considered as inspired as the Bible itself; but, woe unto the poor soul who questions its accuracy!
As gently as possible, let me say: Any interpretation of Scripture that requires a cartoon-- based on no Scripture at all-- That is an interpretation that is in deep, deep ( ahem!! censored!!!).