The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It has absolutely no reference to the administration of this present Church age which the Apostle Paul calls a “mystery which for ages has been hidden in God…which in other generations was NOT MADE KNOWN to the sons of men (O.T. prophets), as it has NOW been revealed to His holy APOSTLES and prophets (N.T.) in the Spirit.”

It seems as though you are attempting to force the mysterious nature of this revelation far past what Paul intended. Since this mystery seems to be the key point which you always come back to, I will address this point you’re bringing up in detail.

When Paul speaks of this mystery, he is not claiming that the Hebrew prophets has no idea what was going to take place. More correctly, it should be viewed in a way similar to a puzzle with many pieces which could not possibly be put together until the fullness of time was complete.

In other words, as 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 notes, we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. The same thing most certainly holds true for these mysteries which we are examining today.

Even in the common language of our day, we see that a mystery is not circumscribed around total void of knowledge. Many clues are found, the meaning of which can be near impossible to fathom until all the clues are juxtapositioned correctly.

In the most basic sense, a mystery is something that is not fully understood-- or something that baffles or eludes understanding. It’s like an enigma. A mystery can also apply, however, to one whose identity is unknown and yet arouses curiosity for example. Along a similar line, a mystery could even reflect a religious truth that is not fully comprehensible to pure reason without recourse to faith as well-- ie., requiring both faith and reason.

In all these cases, a considerable amount of information is indeed available even if the final answer remains elusive.

Again, the mystery doesn’t imply that the Hebrew Prophets had no idea that Gentiles would someday join them. All Jews believe the age of the Messiah will be due to a unity where all the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord-- even the Gentile nations.

The mystery implies that the Hebrew Prophets didn’t know exactly how the Messiah would accomplish this union between Jew and Gentile, but that God revealed enough information through the prophets so that later generations would recognize this magnificient event when it did happen.

apophasis:

Paul makes it quite clear, my friend, that God spoke nothing of this Church age to the O.T. prophets. It is Paul who has given us insight into this previously, unknown mystery.

No. It is Paul who was called by God to expound on how all the previously unconnected prophecies concerning the Church age had now come to pass with the coming of Christ.

apophasis:

IOW, you cannot go back into the O.T. and find the Church prophetically “concealed” there.

Then why are we moving by the Holy Spirit within this very thread, going back into the O.T., and finding the Church prophetically “concealed” numerous times within there?

Your claim here is very much like saying that ‘bees cannot fly’ whilst it is plain, for all to see, that bees do fly.

In other words, for a long time many said that our understanding of aerodynamics could not explain the mysterious ability of bees to fly. As it turns out, however, bee flight mechanisms are simply much more exotic than originally thought. Once more effort was put into isolating and mimicking the flight of these bees, it became very apparent that many of their original assumptions about how bees fly were simply incomplete-- and the mystery of bee flight was indeed revealed under closer scrutiny.

I think the same thing holds true for your claim that you cannot go back into the O.T. and find the Church prophetically “concealed” there.

In other words, we can do this. We are doing this. In fact, we’re doing right now.

Now let’s come back to the nature of this mystery here.

You said that Scripture interprets Scripture, correct?

Well then lat’s take a look at Romans 11:25, Romans 16:25, 1 Corinthians 15:51, Ephesians 1:9, Ephesians 5:32, 1 Timothy 3:16, Revelation 10:7, Revelation 17:5, and Revelation 17:7 to see how the Greek word mysterion has been used throughout Christian Scriptures.

I think this may reveal a flaw in your thinking.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yes, and that is a perfectly valid interpretation–not that you needed me to tell you that!!

This, I think, speaks to the point of this thread. There is a depth to the Scriptures, that requires us to be “careful & prayerful”, as my grandmother liked to tell me as a little girl.

I remember that I was watching a WW2 movie, though I can’t tell you which one it might have been, & they were depicting the liberation of one of the Nazi concentration camps, & I felt that I could hear the prophet Isaiah speaking from the Suffering Servant passages…It was the first time in my life that I had ever seen that connection!! “He had no beauty… His visage was marred beyond the appearance of a man”. The hair stood up on the back of my neck…
And yet, you see, as a Christian, I also knew that those words applied to Jesus Christ’s appearance after the Roman soldiers were done with their torture of Him. I had just never seen that there was more there…

I agree with you very much on this Zooey.

The following image (linked below) may be disturbing. But I think if one views it in the spirit of this thread, I think one can understand how we Christians can easilly identify with the Jewish people through the suffering of our Lord.

The image accurately captures, in my opinion, the duality of Christ’s suffering on the cross for our sins in contrast to the Jews suffering throughout the last 2000 years.

geocities.com/antediluvia007/thesufferingservant.jpg

 

[Sixtus]

Originally Posted by SedesDomi
Which denomination corresponds to which tribe?

Nice thought. Never thought in that way

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Christ’s church is his body apophasis.

For example, Ephesians 5:23 say that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Again, Ex, you’re not focusing on what I am saying. Please focus. I certainly agree that the Church is the Body of Christ. But this is not the issue at hand. Christ Himself, His Person and work, were prophetically concealed in the O.T., and subsequently revealed in the N.T. But not the “Church,” or the administration of this Church age. This present administration when God is making the two (individual, believing Jews and Gentiles) into “ONE new man” (Eph. 2:2:15), baptizing them both by the Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13) in which there is neither Jew or Gentile, being now "in Christ, having a whole new identity (Gal. 3:27-28).

The O.T. prophets knew of no such administration, nor can you find them speaking in such language. Their prophecies addressed either the nation of Israel or the Gentile nations in respect to Israel. They saw the “Times of the Gentiles,” the “70 weeks” decreed for the prophet Daniel’s people and their holy city, Jerusalem, they saw the first Advent of Christ, His national rejection, His sacrificial crucifixion, burial, bodily resurrection, the “Day of the Lord,” Christ’s second Advent to this earth, followed by His earthly, Millennial, Davidic Kingdom. But nothing pertaining to this Church age.

You who allegorize the O.T. prophets view the “Day of the Lord” as historical, not future. And the prophecies in the O.T. that vividly describe the earthly blessings of Christ’s future, Messianic Kingdom on earth to follow, you spiritualize and apply instead to the Church.

Later, in Ephesians 5:28-30, we likewise read that husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.

Consequently, this passage alone seems to refute your distinction between ‘bride’ and 'wife that you noted before. The Church is already married to Christ right now. The bride analogy is rerering to an even greater expectation when ourselves and all of creation will be liberated from the bondage of sin and the Sons of God will be revealed.

First of all it is not referring to creation’s liberation from its bondage to sin. The passage you’re talking about Rom. 8:20-22, and in the
context of believers receiving their glorified bodies - the resurrection. In that passage Paul states that at the time of the fall man even creation itself was subject to “corruption,” i.e., death (not sin) and is awaiting for the resurrection when it too will be set free from this bondage (death).

It is true that the Church Christ has been building since Pentecost is betrothed to Christ/Messiah. But this marriage resembles that of an ancient Oriental marriage in which the marriage is prearranged (they are essentially married) and the groom later comes for His bride (the rapture of the Church). After that there is the celebration of the “marriage supper” (“of the Lamb” see Rev. 19:7-9) when friends of the groom are invited.

But this is not the spiritual portrait of Israel by the O.T. prophets. Israel in the O.T. is spiritually portrayed as the unfaithful wife of Yahweh who commits spiritual adultery with foreign gods, whom He forgives and then restores back to Himself.

The Church, the Bride of Messiah, on the other hand is never portrayed as an unfaithful, adulterous wife but Messiah’s virgin Bride:2 Cor 11:2 "For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin."His “Bride,” the Church, is presented to Him washed, sanctified and justified (1 Cor. 6:11).

I already noted how Melchizedek bringing out the bread and the wine prefigured the Communion which we participate in our Church age. A similar detail was found in the Levitical ordinances too-- and this too prefigures the Communion which we participate in our Church age. And yet you’ve just totally ignored these facts too.

First of all, this does not at all prove your position!! Secondly, that’s an historical account, not a prophetic prediction of this Church age. Thirdly, what you present here is an “interpretation” of that historical event. But nowhere in any passage in the N.T. concerning that “sacrament” do any the authors point back to Abraham bringing Melchizedek bread and wine as prefiguring it. NONE say that Christ instituting the sacrament fulfilled that historical event.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

There’s no denying that Jesus himself is the cornerstone. Nobody should deny that. And nobody has. But Jesus was building a temple without walls too, a Church made from people who believed in him.

You’re all over the place here, Ex. In Ephesians chapter 2 Paul describes (reveals) this “one new man” made up of individual Jews and Gentiles, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ as being built “upon the foundation of the APOSTLES and (N.T.) prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone” (v. 20). He describes it as a building being built up as (a) holy temple in the Lord, into a dwelling of God in the Spirit (vss. 21-22).

Paul is revealing here what is happening during this Church age through the Holy Spirit as He baptizes individual, Jewish and Gentile believers into the Body of Christ, making the two into “one new man,” reconciling them both in “one body” (i.e., the Church) to God through the cross (Eph. 2:15-16).

This is the “insight” Paul had on this wholly, unforeseen, not previously known to other generations, Church age. A whole new and distinct administration in/through the Spirit (Eph. 3:1-13).

I don’t know where you get your idea of a temple “without walls.”

…many have interpreted King Solomon’s observations and inquiry as a fore-shadowing of God building a temple without walls-- ie., the Church.

As I said, you must allegorize O.T. Scriptures to come up with your view. Nowhere in the N.T. do any of its writers teach this concept. In order to come up with your teaching of the Church being “concealed” in the Old and now “revealed” in the “New,” you must allegorize (not take literally) those O.T. Scriptures and spiritually apply them to the Church. But if you allow those Scriptures to speak FOR THEMSELVES your doctrine cannot be found.

Isaiah writes:Is 28:16 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone {for} the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes {in it} will not be disturbed.This prophecy is about Messiah Himself - not the Church. Israel’s Messiah is the “cornerstone” for both the redemption of His Church and for that of national Israel in the future. Jesus came first as Israel’s King (Matt. 2:2) but was rejected and crucified. His death, through the Providence of God, became a substitutionary sin-sacrifice for the collective sin of the whole world (Jn. 1:29).

Consequently, both the Church (which He is now building) and national Israel share the same Redeemer. But it is His Church, called out from both individual Jews and Gentiles, that is being redeemed now - national Israel (according to the O.T. prophets) AFTER His Church/Bride is taken up to be with Him. These are separate, divine programs.

His program for the Church was revealed by the Apostles (especially Paul); Israel’s by her ancient prophets. Paul, in his Epistles, never commingles the two programs by allegorizing the O.T. prophecies and spiritually applying them to the Church as Catholic and many Protestant theologians do (cults use this hermeneutics also for the purpose of proving the validity of their own religious institutions).

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Then why does Acts 3:21 say that he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets?

The “restoration of all things” pertains to national Israel. This is what “his holy prophets” prophesied about. Peter is speaking to Jews when he said this. The “restoration of all things” pertains to national Israel and will occur at the time of Christ’s bodily return to this earth as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:16), delivers Israel from her enemies and establishes His promised Millennial Kingdom, and reigns on His father David’s throne from Jerusalem. Just as it was told to Mary at the “Annunciation” (Lk. 1:32-33). This is what “his holy prophets” spoke about in regards to “the restoration of all things.”

The prophetic promise of God to Israel after her exile from the land was that He would “restore the fortunes of Israel.” This He accomplishes at Christ’s second Advent. However, this present Church age is totally unique and not previously revealed to/through those O.T. prophets.

Take a look at Isaiah 52:14-15 again. Who is this one man so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness?

Israel’s Messiah - Jesus Christ.

What effects on the nations of the world did the Hebrew Prophets perceive would result due to the suffering of this one man?

His sufferings and sacrificial death would become the work of redemption through His blood. But God is not saving “nations” during this Church age, but individual Jews and Gentiles through personal faith in Christ, baptizing by the Spirit into the Body of Christ - His Church (by this I do not mean the RCC).

How does this one man marred beyond human likeness sprinkle many nations for example?

He doesn’t. It is individuals who personally believe in Him that are (spiritually speaking) sprinkled by His blood, thereby redeemed by His blood and then baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ - His Church - His virgin Bride.

How could Abraham have seen Jesus’ day and be glad when he did not actually understand what Jesus’s day would bring?

Abraham prophetically saw it through the attempted sacrifice of his only Son Isaac. Though he was told by God to travel to Mt. Moriah and sacrifice his son as a burnt offering, when asked by Isaac where the offering is, Abraham replied to him, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering.” Consequently, Isaac was not offered up and Jesus was “the Lamb” God Himself provided hundreds of years later. The unblemished “Lamb” who would take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29).

Isn’t the passage “The righteous will live by faith” not from Habakkuk 2:4, likewise indicating something which has been known by the Hebrew Prophets from first to last?

It is a general teaching of faith that was true in O.T. times, true today, and will be true in the Millennial age to come.

Wasn’t the gospel announced in advance to Abraham according to Galatians 3:8?

Yes, but this Church age was not. The “gospel” (good news) that is revealed in the Abrahamic Covenant is that even Gentiles are “justified by faith” alone, not only in this Church age, but in the Millennial age to come as Christ’s second coming. The “gospel” preached beforehand to Abraham was the justification of Gentiles by faith alone, as pointed out by Paul in Gal. 3:8

The mystery that you keep pointing out is that, according to Ephesians 3:6, through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

NO! PLEASE FOCUS, Ex. The mystery Paul reveals is that individual Gentiles during this Church age, through personal faith in Christ, are fellow members of the Body of Christ (the Church) with individual Jews who believe. God is not dealing with national Israel at this present time.

It was not a “mystery” in the O.T. that Gentiles nations would share in the glories of national Israel’s promised, yet future, Messianic Kingdom to come. But it was a “mystery” that Gentiles would become “one new man” with individual, believing Jews, incorporated into what is called the “Church,” the “Body/Bride” of Christ, unique only to this church age. Into this “mystery” Paul was given insight and now reveals it to us through his Epistles.

You cannot go back and read about this “mystery” in the prophetic writings of the O.T. It simply was not prophetically made known to them. All you can do is “pirate” those prophetic writings and spiritually apply them (nonliterally) to the Church .

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It has absolutely no reference to the administration of this present Church age which the Apostle Paul calls a “mystery which for ages has been hidden in God…which in other generations was NOT MADE KNOWN to the sons of men (O.T. prophets), as it has NOW been revealed to His holy APOSTLES and prophets (N.T.) in the Spirit.”

It is Christ himself who was not made known to the Old Testament prophets as he has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets within the New Testament. In fact, the Christian faith was built around the epiphany of Christ finally appearing to us, as had long been foretold though the Hebrew prophets.

But not experiencing the epiphany of Christ’s arrival onto the world’s stage does not imply in the least that the Old Testament prophets had no idea about the coming of Christ or the ministry of reconciliation that he himself would establish for that matter.

The word used for mystery in the Christian Scriptures is either the Greek word mysterion or the plural form mysteria, both of which derives from mystes and somewhat etymologically harkens back to a person initiated in sacred mysteries (Enoch’s name actually means something like ‘initiated’).

Nonetheless, either way you look at it, and in all available cases, these mysteries are not something that is absolutely obscure. They are only relatively obscure. More precisely, they represents what is simply not fully understood at this time.

You said that you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, right?

Well then let’s examine the Scriptures where these same words mysterion and mysteria are used-- and let’s see how your strict application of it within these Pauline passages measures to the other passages of Scripture.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

continued

For example, 2 Thessalonians 2:7 says…

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

The word secret in this verse is from the Greek word mysteria by the way.

Does this passage from 2 Thessalonians 2:7 imply that no one knows who is at work to cause the power of lawlessness to abound throughout the world?

Let’s take a look at 1 Timothy 3:16 too…

Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:

God appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

The word mystery in this verse is from the Greek word mysteria too.

Does this passage from 1 Timothy 3:16 imply that no one knows that Jesus is God?

Let’s take a look at 1 Corinthians 2:6-8…

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The word secret in this verse is also from the Greek word mysteria.

Does this passage from 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 imply that no one understands God’s wisdom?

How can some clearly explain something which they don’t understand?

Now let’s look at Romans 11:25…

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

The word mystery in this verse comes from the Greek word mysterion.

Does this passage from Romans 11:25 imply that no one knows that Jewish hearts have been hardened against the Christ?

Let’s look at 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 too while we’re at it…

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

The word mystery in this verse comes from the Greek word mysterion.

Does this passage from 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 imply that no one understands that we will be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet?

And speaking of the last trumpet, let skip ahead and look at Revelation 10:7 as well…

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

Yes. Once again we have the same word here.

Does this passage from Revelation 10:7 imply that no one knows what exactly the mystery applies too?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

continued

Let’s back up to 1 Corinthians 13:2 as well…

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

These mysteries too are derived from the same exact word.

What does being able to fathom all mysteries mean to you?

Let’s also take a look at 1 Timothy 3:9 as well…

They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.

Once again we’re using the Greek word mysterion– but this time for deep truths.

Does this passage imply that we are supposed to hold onto things that we do not actually understand-- albeit, with a clear conscience?

We could also look to Matthew 13:11 too…

He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.”

And Mark 4:11-12…

He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

And Luke 8:10…

He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,

“‘though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.’”

And Ephesians 5:31-33…

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”

This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

What’s the profound mystery here?

And also here at Revelation 1:20…

The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

What are the mystery of the seven stars?

And finally here too…

This title was written on her forehead:

MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.”

Who is BABYLON THE GREAT apophasis?

And how do you already know who BABYLON THE GREAT is if this is a mystery which will not be revealed until the end times?

My apologies apophasis. But I’ve just gone though nearly every passage within our Christian Scriptures which uses the same words that the passages you’ve quoted from in Romans 16:25-26, Ephesians 3:4-5, Ephesians 3:9 & Colossians 1:25-26. And none of these other passages are speaking of these mysteries in the way that you’re claiming that we must read the passages from Romans 16:25-26, Ephesians 3:4-5, Ephesians 3:9 & Colossians 1:25-26 either.

Not one.

Based on this I have to ask why exactly you believe that you are reading the proper exegesis from Paul’s words instead of superimposing your own interpretation over his words.

Indeed, it seems to me that you are very much allegorizing Paul’s words away from what Paul himself intended so that you can fit your own theology into his writings.

You said that you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, right?

Well why is it then that when we examine the Scriptures where these same words mysterion and mysteria are used we see that they are not being used in the same way that you interpret them within the Pauline passages you have quoted.

If one is to use Scripture to interpret Scriptures, then it would seem to me that the Scriptures demand that you interpret all the passages in the same way as the majority of other passages interpret them. Not the other way around.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Again, Ex, you’re not focusing on what I am saying. Please focus.

I am focused.

Now stop talking to me like I’m idiot and just answer my questions without the additional innuendo.

First you start off saying this…

Believe it or not some God fearing men actually believe God Himself has something to say, and He said it, and they take Him at His literal Word.

When did we not take God at his literal word?

Then you make a claim like this…

No. The question is whether or not the reader has the right (authority) to disregard the literal text and spiritualize or allegorize at will.

When exactly have we disregarded the literal text apophasis?

We’ve only said that there is overlying themes within the same message, fulfillments within fulfillments.

I’ve already demonstrated how this works with the Isaiah passage for example-- the prophecy is usually fulfilled around the time the prophet has spoken. And the literal fulfillment prophetically speaks or fore-shadows something even greater for later generations.

Anyway, then you make this claim…

People think that because the Bible presents spiritual truths they have the right to spiritualize its contents at whim. But this method of interpretation, my friend, is the mother of all cults.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church is the mother of all cults?

No one within the Catholic Church beleives that we can spiritualize its contents at whim. And that’s a gross distortion of how Catholic doctrine has developed over the last 2000 years I might add.

Furthermore, just because someone sees an allegory for something else within the Scriptures does not imply that they have distorted something from the Scriptures. If the Holy Spirit has moved them to this conclusion, then God himself has revealed this truth from the Scriptures.

Of course, then you said this…

I know. Because as long as you continue to be a student of Oregin and keep forcing your allegorical method of interpretation on the Scriptures you will never understand Paul or God’s present program for the Church and future program for Israel. Yet it’s all right there, literally, in black and white.

So here you’re saying that I don’t actually understand Paul or God’s present program for the Church and his apparently future program for Israel?

Do you realize how many digs I let you get on me here?

I was really trying to fairly debate this. For that matter, I didn’t even want to debate this part-- because I thought it would be a point of agreement that many Christians could come together on and politely discuss further as the Spirit led them to.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Anyway, then you say this…

Why do Catholics always outsource? Are you not allowed to think for yourselves?

Then you say this…

You do a great disservice to the written Word of God when you go back into the O.T. Scriptures and allegorized those prophecies and covenants which literally belong to national Israel and you spiritually apply them to the Church.

Then you say this…

I claim no such thing and your logic is fundamentally flawed. Rather than just react with your emotions and accuse me of saying something I did not, THINK about it a while.

Then this…

You’re simply rambling now.

Finally, I started to get frustrated with your insults and actually retorted something back…

me:

Getting tired yet?

No. I’m actually moving in the Spirit of a New Pentecost. You, however, are apparently still partially caught in the spirit of Babylon.

Now can you actually answer my questions?

Anyway, this didn’t seem to slow you down any…

It’s sad when Catholics say they’re Amillennial because they’re “Catholic.” That’s like a Jew saying he doesn’t believe in Jesus because he’s Jewish, or a JW saying he doesn’t believe in the Trinity because he’s a JW. That’s religiously branding yourself, shelving your brain, and allowing your religious leaders to do all the thinking for you.

Then, after you introduce the authority of the Church into this, and when I respond to this and place it within the context of the very point which you yourself raised, you make this quip too…

You’re all over the place here, Ex.

I’m not all over the place. You’re throwing one thing after another like a buckshot, without listening to what I’m saying, and completely ignoring the valid points I’m trying to make to you.

Then you say this…

In order to come up with your teaching of the Church being “concealed” in the Old and now “revealed” in the “New,” you must allegorize (not take literally) those O.T. Scriptures and spiritually apply them to the Church.

That’s just plain and simply a lie or else a serious misunderstanding. We do take them literally. What we’re saying is that these literal truths also extend further than the Old Testament. This is a teaching which is clearly seen in the New Testament too.

NO! PLEASE FOCUS, Ex.

I think you’d get your message across much better if you stopped standing in the place of the Lord’s central finger in your attempts to point out the way to heaven.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

And, in regards to the ancient prophets, 1 Peter 1:12 say that it was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

Keep it in CONTEXT, Ex. Peter, writing to fellow Jews in verses 10 & 11 says that as to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the GRACE (not this Church age) that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, seeking to know what PERSON or TIME the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

They examined the prophetic writings as to the identity of this Messiah who would suffer. The “glories to follow” are God’s dealings with them in divine GRACE. The “grace” that would be exercised toward them by God because of the sacrifice of His beloved Son. But they knew nothing of this Church age. It was not revealed to them until AFTER that nation’s rejection of their King/Messiah.

Actually, you seem to be ignoring huge portions of the Scriptures in order to make the few passages that talk about a ‘mystery’ mean more than Paul himself actually intended.

Actually, I am not. I am allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves. You, on the other hand, must allegorize huge portions of Scripture, ignoring what they say, literally, in order to come up with your form of ecclesiology.

 

[apophasis]

]
In others words, the mystery doesn’t imply that the Hebrew Prophets had no idea that Gentiles would someday join them. All Jews believe the age of the Messiah will be due to a unity where all the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord-- even the Gentile nations.

True! But in CONTEXT those prophets spoke not of this church age, when individual Jews and Gentiles would become ONE new man in Christ, in whom there is identified neither Jew or Gentile, but the future earthly, Messianic, Kingdom age when Gentile nations would join with national Israel in worshipping the King in Jerusalem.

Zech 14:8-9 "And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be {the only} one, and His name {the only} one.

Zech 14:16 "Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.That “day” my friend, is not this church age, but will not and cannot occur until Israel’s King returns and sets up His Messianic Kingdom. It is this “age” to which the O.T. prophets spoke.

The mystery implies that the Hebrew Prophets didn’t know exactly how the Messiah would accomplish this union between Jew and Gentile, but that God revealed enough information through the prophets so that later generations would recognize this magnificient event when it did happen.

The “mystery in Christ” Paul is talking about in his Epistles, the mystery that was made known to him by divine revelation (Eph. 3:3-4), is not the time when Jews and Gentiles, in unity, gather together in Jerusalem to worship of the Lord - this annual event was well known to and revealed by the O.T. prophets. As you can see by what I wrote above, this was no unrevealed mystery. Paul reveals to us the previously unknown “mystery in Christ.” A divine program “in Christ” totally unknown, totally unrevealed to those Hebrew prophets: “which in other generations WAS NOT MADE KNOWN to the sons of men…” (Eph. 3:5). You blatantly contradict Paul by saying that God provided enough information through those prophets for us to simply recognize it when it came about. No, my friend, this church age was not partially revealed, but Paul, who calls himself the least of all saints, was given the grace to “bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which FOR AGES HAS BEEN HIDDEN in God…” (Eph. 3:8-9).

It seems as though you are attempting to force the mysterious nature of this revelation far past what Paul intended. Since this mystery seems to be the key point which you always come back to, I will address this point you’re bringing up in detail.

When Paul speaks of this mystery, he is not claiming that the Hebrew prophets has no idea what was going to take place. More correctly, it should be viewed in a way similar to a puzzle with many pieces which could not possibly be put together until the fullness of time was complete.

No, my friend, the mystery of this church age in respect to the O.T. prophets is intercalary, parenthetical in respect to God’s dealings with national Israel. The Hebrew prophets saw the whole picture of Israel’s Messiah, His death, burial and resurrection, and His glorious, Messianic Kingdom to follow (which includes the participation of Gentiles), but what they did not see, what was not revealed to them, what was for ages hidden in God, was this present church age. This required new (added), divine revelation. When Christ’s Church/Bride is completed, which Paul calls “the fulness of the Gentiles,” and she is taken up to forever be with her Lord, THEN those Messianic prophecies concerning Israel and the Gentile nations will be fulfilled (see Rom. 11:25-29).

According to a literal delineation of the O.T. prophets:
Israel is not at all the Church; the Church is not at all spiritual Israel; the RCC is not at all the Kingdom; the Kingdom is not in any way, shape or form, the Church.​

 

[spauline]

Dear Mr. Ex Nihilo,

I do not have the time to read this whole thread, but most of your premise I agree with.

although I would say the 12 tribes are a type of the 12 APOSTLES. For the application of how this typology works in terms of the OT Schism (10 northern tribes break from true kingship southern 2 tribes) prefiguring the NT schism (4 Eastern Apostolic Sees breaking with true kingship Western Petrine See), read this;

Parallels between OT and NT Kingdom Schisms

For the primary typology of how Jewish History prefigures NT history, read this:

OT Typology: Jewish History → Church History

For the typology of the OT prophets prefiguring the Magisterium as concerns Rev. 11’s Two Witnesses, read this:

The Two Witnesses: Scripture and Tradition?

I know it’s a lot to read, but I think you’d find it interesting!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

No you haven’t. What you’ve been trying to stress is that this N.C. found in Jer. 31:31ff is now “spiritually” fulfilled in the Church.

No. That’s not what I’m saying.

I’m not saying that Jeremiah 31:31 is now “spiritually” fulfilled in the Church.

I’m saying that that we are living in the time prophesied when the Jews and Gentiles would start to unite in Christ through his Church

This is the time where Christ is sitting at the Father’s right hand until he make Christ’s enemies a footstool for his feet-- something which was definitely prophesied in the Old Testament here…
Psalm 110:1:

The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Is this passage from Psalm 110:1 not prophesying about the Church age?

This age began on the day of pentecost when the Holy Spirit began to return to humanity through Christ in way which was similar too but not exactly the same as Adam and Eve were indwelled by the Spirit before the fall of mankind.

But we haven’t come to the end yet as far as the great eschatological end is concerned. The Catholic faith has never made that claim-- and you need to stop making these absurd claims against our faith.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you need to examine our Catechism. There you will find exactly what we believe without question.

For example, there’s this…

669 As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.551 Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. “The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery”, “on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom”.552

670 Since the Ascension God’s plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at “the last hour”.553 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."554 Christ’s kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.555

. . .until all things are subjected to him

671 Though already present in his Church, Christ’s reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled “with power and great glory” by the King’s return to earth.556 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ’s Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."558 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ’s return by saying to him:559 Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"560

672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel561 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.562 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by “distress” and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church563 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.564

**The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel **

673 Since the Ascension Christ’s coming in glory has been imminent,565 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."566. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed”.567

674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."569 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"570 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”,571 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.572

**The Church’s ultimate trial **

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.573 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth574 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.575

In other words, even though many may meet the Lord prior to this time (because they have perished prior to the coming of the Lord) many things still need to be fulfilled before that ultimate end will come.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Dear Mr. Ex Nihilo,

I do not have the time to read this whole thread, but most of your premise I agree with.

although I would say the 12 tribes are a type of the 12 APOSTLES. For the application of how this typology works in terms of the OT Schism (10 northern tribes break from true kingship southern 2 tribes) prefiguring the NT schism (4 Eastern Apostolic Sees breaking with true kingship Western Petrine See), read this;

Parallels between OT and NT Kingdom Schisms

For the primary typology of how Jewish History prefigures NT history, read this:

OT Typology: Jewish History → Church History

For the typology of the OT prophets prefiguring the Magisterium as concerns Rev. 11’s Two Witnesses, read this:

The Two Witnesses: Scripture and Tradition?

I know it’s a lot to read, but I think you’d find it interesting!

That is extremely interesting.

Did you write some of that material?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I certainly agree that the Church is the Body of Christ. But this is not the issue at hand. Christ Himself, His Person and work, were prophetically concealed in the O.T., and subsequently revealed in the N.T. But not the “Church,” or the administration of this Church age.

Christ’s church is his body apophasis. You can’t get around this part. To the extent that the Old Testament prophesies about Christ, the Old Testament also prophesies about his church.

Furthermore, we’ve pointed out many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures where the Holy Spirit has revealed the Church concealed within the Old Testament. You can’t get around this part either.

At this point you’re basically covering your ears and resisting the Holy Spirit’s insight into the Scriptures.

This present administration when God is making the two (individual, believing Jews and Gentiles) into “ONE new man” (Eph. 2:2:15), baptizing them both by the Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13) in which there is neither Jew or Gentile, being now "in Christ, having a whole new identity (Gal. 3:27-28).

Yes. And this present administration was concealed within the Hebrew Scriptures.

apophasis:

The O.T. prophets knew of no such administration, nor can you find them speaking in such language.

Fine. So this is what it comes down to. Two can play at this game.

The O.T. prophets knew that this administration was coming, and I have clearly pointed out where they were speaking in such language.

Their prophecies addressed either the nation of Israel or the Gentile nations in respect to Israel.

No. Their prophecies simultaneously addressed the nation of Israel and the Church at the same time. This is a revelation of the Holy Spirit. Good luck debating with him.

But nothing pertaining to this Church age.

Yeah…I’ve read this before. Despite claims to the contrary, the Hebrew Prophets often spoke of the Church age at the same time they spoke of Israel. They didn’t understand the full significance of the words the Lord put in their mouth. But they were prophesying of greater things to be found in the Church age noentheless. Even their actions prophesied of the Church age.

You who allegorize the O.T. prophets view the “Day of the Lord” as historical, not future.

No. We who take the Scriptures literally have been blessed by the Holy Spirit to understand that many things which were spoken in the Hebrew Scriptures (and literally happened) were also prefiguing a greater truth found in the Christ era. The lives of the Israelites prophesied of the Chuch age because the Scriptures are timeless and their message never changes.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

apophasis:

It is true that the Church Christ has been building since Pentecost is betrothed to Christ/Messiah. But this marriage resembles that of an ancient Oriental marriage in which the marriage is prearranged (they are essentially married) and the groom later comes for His bride (the rapture of the Church). After that there is the celebration of the “marriage supper” (“of the Lamb” see Rev. 19:7-9) when friends of the groom are invited.

The Israelites were spoken of as a bride too.
Isaiah 61:10:

I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

This is present tense. Not future tense. Nothing negative about this either.

But this is not the spiritual portrait of Israel by the O.T. prophets. Israel in the O.T. is spiritually portrayed as the unfaithful wife of Yahweh who commits spiritual adultery with foreign gods, whom He forgives and then restores back to Himself.

Nope. Not always. Isaiah 61:10 is present tense and very positive. Nothing negative at all about Isaiah 61:10.

The Church, the Bride of Messiah, on the other hand is never portrayed as an unfaithful, adulterous wife but Messiah’s virgin Bride:2 Cor 11:2 "For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin."His “Bride,” the Church, is presented to Him washed, sanctified and justified (1 Cor. 6:11).

Yep. And we’ve entered that age of cleansing already. Right now we’re preparing foe the consumation, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

First of all, this does not at all prove your position!!

Why? Because you don’t like it? Becuase it doesn’t agree with your theology?

This does indeed prove my position, the position I"ve been expianing from the beginning.

I already clearly noted how Melchizedek bringing out the bread and the wine prefigured the Communion which we participate in our Church age. This is a prophetic revelation in the Old Testament which points directly to the New Testament era.

I also pointed out a similar detail was found in the Levitical ordinances too-- and this too prefigures the Communion which we participate in our Church age. And yet you’ve just totally ignored these facts too. Whether you ignore this or not, this is also a prophetic revelation in the Old Testament which points directly to the New Testament era.

Secondly, that’s an historical account, not a prophetic prediction of this Church age.

Then why does both the Old and New Testament speak of it with prophetic significance?

Thirdly, what you present here is an “interpretation” of that historical event. But nowhere in any passage in the N.T. concerning that “sacrament” do any the authors point back to Abraham bringing Melchizedek bread and wine as prefiguring it. NONE say that Christ instituting the sacrament fulfilled that historical event.

So let me get this straight.

Melchizedek was priest of God Most High who brought out the bread and wine when Abraham was victorious against his enemies.

Then we see Jesus, who likewise came in the order of Melchizedek, likewise bringing out bread and wine (which was already part of the Jewish celebration too) just as he, as the the Most High priest of God, was going to be victorious against the adversary.

We also read Psalm 110:4 which says that the LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”

We also read Hebrews 5:6 and Hebrews 7:17 which likewise says, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”

Melchizedek was a priest of the God Most High who brought out bread and wine just as Christ was the High Priest of God who who brought out bread and wine.

This is not an “interpretation” of that historical event. This is a revelation by the Holy Spirit that this literal event had a prophetic significance which directly applies to the Lord Jesus instituting the Eucharist.

The Holy Spirit proclaims to all who are willing to listen that all throughout many passages in the N.T. concerning that “sacrament”, the authors are pointing back to Abraham bringing Melchizedek bread and wine as prefiguring it. The Holy Spirit says that Christ instituting the sacrament fulfilled that prophetic significance of the literal historical event whether you believe him or not.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But those Scriptures knew nothing of the Spirit baptizing individuals into the Body of Christ, the Church.

Nonsense.
1 Corinthians 10:1-13:

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.

Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.

Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written:

“The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.”

We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.

We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.

And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

There is no doubt, according to the Scriptures, that the Israelites were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

I’m sorry but these examples in the Old Testament serve as an example or pattern of the Church age regardless of how you much you ignore them simply because they do not agree with your theology.