The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The wind must be southerly; I can tell a hawk from a handsaw…

I had to look this up.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Through our baptism in Christ we have been adopted into God’s family so that Jesus fulfills our Jewish identity for us. Christ not only bore our sins for us for example. He was also circumcized for us too-- and in this way we have been adopted into the nation of Israel through Christ.

Now lest you think I’m allegorizing this adoption into the nation of Israel, consider this…
Ephesians 2:11-22:

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

The Church is an extension of ancient Israel apophasis-- whether you want to admit this or not.

 

[Valke2]

“Through our baptism in Christ we have been adopted into God’s family so that Jesus fulfills our Jewish identity for us. Christ not only bore our sins for us for example. He was also circumcized for us too-- and in this way we have been adopted into the nation of Israel through Christ.”

Welcome to the family. Your mother wants to know we never see you at shul anymore!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

“Through our baptism in Christ we have been adopted into God’s family so that Jesus fulfills our Jewish identity for us. Christ not only bore our sins for us for example. He was also circumcized for us too-- and in this way we have been adopted into the nation of Israel through Christ.”

Welcome to the family. Your mother wants to know why we never see you at shul anymore!

You never know. I might come by the visit some time.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

As an additional bulwark of how the Old Testament speaks of the Church age (and not just Christ himself), consider 2 Corinthians 6:1-2

As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

For he says,

In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.

I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

---

Paul is quoting Isaiah 49:8 by the way.

Does this passage from Isaiah 49:8 not speak of the Church age we live in now?

Is now not the time of God’s favor?

Is now not the day of salvation?

If not, then why does Paul say that now is the time of God’s favor and now is the day of salvation?

---

Further down we read in 2 Corinthians 6:16-18…

What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people*.

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This passage in 2 Corinthians 6:15 is simultaneously quoting Leviticus 26:12, Jeremiah 32:38 and Ezekiel 37:27 at the same time by the way.

Do these passages from Leviticus 26:12, Jeremiah 32:38 and Ezekiel 37:27 not speak of the Church age we live in now?

---

Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.

---

This passage in 2 Corinthians 6:17 is simultaneously quoting Isaiah 52:11 and Ezekiel 20:34,41 at the same time by the way.

Do these passages from Isaiah 52:11 and Ezekiel 20:34,41 not speak of the Church age we live in now?

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I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

---

This passage in 2 Corinthians 6:18 is quoting 2 Samuel 7:14; 7:8 by the way.

Do these passages from 2 Samuel 7:14; 7:8 not speak of the Church age we live in now?

---

If the Old Testament knew nothing of the Church age we now live in, why does Paul so forcefully quote Isaiah 49:8, Leviticus 26:12, Jeremiah 32:38, Ezekiel 37:27, Isaiah 52:11, Ezekiel 20:34,41 and 2 Samuel 7:14; 7:8 as clear examples of prophesies which speak of the characteristics of the Church age we live in now?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Ezekiel is stating nothing about the Church in this prophetic verse.

Then why does Paul so forcefully quote Ezekial when refering to the Church age in 2 Corinthians 6:16-18?

apophasis:

In verse 24 the Lord says that at the time He makes (or establishes) that “covenant of peace” His Servant David will be king over them, they will walk in His ordinances, keep and observe His statutes. In verse 25 He says they will be living in the land He gave to Jacob and in which their father’s lived.

And yet Paul quotes Ezekiel 37:27 in 2 Corinthians 6:15…

I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.

…and clearly states that this passage is refering to the Church age…now.

apophasis:

Now if that doesn’t give you a hint as to whom the Lord is addressing through Ezekiel, then jump up to verse 21 for the context of Ezekiel’s prophecy:

Ezek. 37:21 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms”)

cf. Eze. 34:11; 13; 20-25; 30; 36:8-12; 22-28; 33

And yet Paul quotes Ezekiel 20:34,41 in 2 Corinthians 6:17…

Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.

…and clearly states that this passage is refering to the Church age…now.

And what about Isaiah 49:8, Leviticus 26:12, Jeremiah 32:38, Ezekiel 37:27, Isaiah 52:11, Ezekiel 20:34,41 and 2 Samuel 7:14; 7:8 for example?

Ezekiel 37 is the famous prophecy of the “dry bones” which refers to the physical and spiritual resurrection of national Israel at the end of the age (Matt. 24:3; cf. Acts 1:6). It speaks nothing of the Church or this present Church age.

And yet Paul employs Ezekiel 37 to specifcally address the Church age we live in now. In fact, Ezekiel 37:12-14 says…

Therefore prophesy and say to them:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’​

…and this most certainly does apply to the Church age too…

Look here…
Matthew 27:52-54:

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son[a] of God!”

This passage from Matthew 27:52-54 is quite literally the beginning of the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:12-14-- and this is a literal fulfillment by the way.

apophasis:

Men spiritualize that prophecy and allegorically apply it to the Church, but when you allow the prophet to speak literally, the Church is not in view.

Apparently Paul is guilty of spiritualizing that prophecy and allegorically applying it to the Church.

apophasis:

As Paul taught in his Epistles, and I pointed out in my previous post, neither Ezekiel or any of the ancient Hebrew prophets knew anything of the Church or this Church age.

I don’t think Paul actually taught what you think he taught. I also don’t think you’ve been able to solidly refute this either. Then again, I don’t think you actually understand what you’re talking about on this particular subject either. In fact, your own quotes seem to prove you wrong when one contrasts your claims to 2 Corinthians 6:16-18 for example.

For the sake of Christian unity I’ve been holding back so far.

Would you like me to continue with this inquiry and demonstrate the polyvalent nature of the ‘end times’ of the Old Testament era with the ‘end times’ of the New Testament era?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Dear apophasis,

If the Old Testament said nothing of this Church age, then why does Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8 refer to the Church replacing Judas with Matthias in Acts 1:20?

Why does Acts 2:21 refer to Joel 2:28-32 when the Holy Spirit is poured out on the Apostles and they begin to speak in different lanaguages?

Why does Acts 2:35 refer to Psalm 110:1 when the Church begins with the Lord sitting at the Lord’s right hand until he makes his enemies a footstool for his feet?

Why does Acts 3:25 quote Geneisis 22:18; 26:4 when it says the following?

Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'

And the quoting of Solomon words in 2 Chronicles 2:5-7 do not seem to be merely idle speculations by the way. It was a motion of the Holy Spirit, a motion which you are either currently resisting or else simply not understanding.

Remember when I said this?

In the Old Testament, when King Solomon stated and then asked the following in 2 Chronicles 2:5-7…

The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.

But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him?

Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?

…many have interpreted King Solomon’s observations and inquiry as a fore-shadowing of God building a temple without walls-- ie., the Church.

To this you responded as follows…

apophasis:

As I said, you must allegorize O.T. Scriptures to come up with your view. Nowhere in the N.T. do any of its writers teach this concept. In order to come up with your teaching of the Church being “concealed” in the Old and now “revealed” in the “New,” you must allegorize (not take literally) those O.T. Scriptures and spiritually apply them to the Church. But if you allow those Scriptures to speak FOR THEMSELVES your doctrine cannot be found.

If this is true, then why is it that when we look to Acts 7:49-50 we see that they are quoting Isaiah 66:1-2 as follows…
Acts 7:49-50:

However, the Most High does not live in houses made by men. As the prophet says:
Isaiah 66:1-2:

Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
Has not my hand made all these things?

Isaiah’s words in Isaiah 66:1-2 most certainly do reflect King Solomon’s words in 2 Chronicles 2:5-7-- something which is confirmed in Acts 7:49-50. They’re virtually the same message.

I could also point toward Acts 13:46-48 which quotes Isaiah 49:6…
Acts 13:46-48:

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly:

We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

You said here that the Old Testament knew…

…absolutely nothing of the mystery of this present Church age when Christ is building His Church, made up those who personally believe in Him for salvation, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles.

If this is so, then why do both Paul and Barnabus quote Isaiah 49:6 as a commandment from God to now turn to the Gentiles since the Messiah has been rejected by his own people?

And why does Paul quote Isaiah 66:1-2 to prove that the Most High does not live in houses made by men (something which is likewise reflected in 2 Chronicles 2:5-7) and ultimately refers to God indwelling individual believers, both Jews and Gentiles, by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

continued

Acts 15:12-18:

The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.

When they finished, James spoke up:

Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things
that have been known for ages.

Here’s Amos 9:11-12 in case you want to check it our for yourself.

Why is James quoting Amos 9:11-12 in Acts 15:12-18 and clearly stating that the words of the prophets are in agreement with the fact that God was taking from the Gentiles a people for himself if the Hebrew prophets knew nothing of this Church age?

I thought that you said that Amos actually knew nothing of this Church age too if I recall correctly?

James is also in agreement when he gives us the chronology in the Book of Acts quoting the prophet Amos:

“After these things (i.e., the calling out of His Church) I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, in order that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who makes things known from of old” (Acts 15:16-18).

Now Amos actually knew nothing of this Church age, but James changes his prophecy to “After these things,” whereas Amos literally wrote, “In that day…”

Why did you insert the (i.e., the calling out of His Church) in that passage above?

I thought you were going to allow the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures?

And how exactly can you claim that Amos actually knew nothing of this Church age when you yourself admit above that Amos’ reference to ‘after these things’ refers to ‘the calling out of His Church’?

How can Amos know absolutely nothing of this Church age and yet simultaineuosly prophesy of Church age within one sentence?

This isn’t necessarilly talking about after the Church age by the way. This is also talking about the begining of the Church age, the very time where God begins to draw the gentile nations to himself well after the Israelites have returned home from their captivity by the foreign nations and shortly after Israel’s rejection of their Messiah.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

continue

And finally, one last thing, this prophesy from Amos 9:11-12 seems to be in the process of being fulfilled again in our modern day. And in this sense I might actually agree with you-- a partial agreement anyway.

Remember when I said the Scriptural texts in question, such as from Isaiah 7:14 can certainly have a dualistic meaning– one prophetic meaning usually fulfilled around the the time the prophecy was spoken, and a later meaning which is illuminated by the original event, a later event which the original event itself prophecies of?

It gets even more complex when one event prophecies of another event and these two events both prophesy in harmony to a greater event yet to be fufilled-- indicating that prophecies can be fufilled more than once so to speak.

Certainly some prophecies are singular and unrepeatable-- I know that Isaiah 7:14’s applicaition to the virgin birth of Christ will never be repeated again for example. There’s only one birth of the Messiah, he reigns alive in heaven now-- and I definitely don’t believe in reincarnation either.

Before conception, we had no spirit. And after our death comes the judgement.

However, Isaiah 7:14 most likely did have a general non-messianic fulfillment within Isaiah’s own time, a literal historical event which prophesied of the Messiah’s birth. And I think that Isaiah 7:14 may also have a universal fullfillment as the Lord indwells his Church and quickens her toward the final birth at the end of time too.

When one examines the Book of the Apocalypse, the difinitive spiritual work uttered by the Holy Spirit through St. John, one finds that it bears an uncanny resembalnce to the Jewish genre otherwise known as the Birthpangs of the Messiah-- albeit, centered around the Catholic Mass, the early Christian’s key to understanding the mysteries of Book of Revelation.

So while I do not believe that Jesus will be literally ‘born again’ within the sinless virgin’s womb, I do believe that Jesus is being ‘born again’ throughout Church history as he indwells those who believe in him by the Holy Spirit in order to make us sinless. Consequently, as the motion of the Spirit advances forcefull toward the birth of the ‘Sons of God’, I do believe that the adversary will unleash a final all-out assault against the Spirit’s motion in his attempts to forcefully abort the Church.

The adversary will fail. He always does. But his final persecution against the birth of the Sons of God will certainly be accompanied by tremendous social upheavals and violent ruptures within the very fabric of nature itself as the adverary and the virgin do battle.

I saw something one night in a dream. I would almost call it a vision. It was so clear. She faced off against the adverary as she stood in this radiance of bluish white and held out her hand to rebuke him in the Lord’s name…

These children belong to me. God gave gave them to me. And you cannot have them!

Now are you interested in knowing how the ‘end times’ of the Israelites might be mirror image of the ‘end times’ of the Christian era?

I would would like to share this with you.

 

[lak611]

What about Malachi? He prophesied about the Eucharist in Malachi 1:11. 11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. 11 “A clean oblation”… Viz., the precious body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

What about Malachi? He prophesied about the Eucharist in Malachi 1:11. 11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. 11 “A clean oblation”… Viz., the precious body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice.

In Scripture, the Eucharist is also prefigured by the miraculous rain of manna from heaven found in Exodus. 16:13-36.

In fact, a crowd of listeners challenges Christ on this point before he delivers the bread of life discourse found in John 6:31-- and he describes himself as true bread from heaven in John 6:32.

So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written*: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

*John 6:31 is quoting Exodus 16:4; Neh. 9:15; Psalm 78:24-25 too.

Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

“Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.”

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Exodus 13: 3-10 also repfigures the Eucharist too.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You who allegorize the O.T. prophets view the “Day of the Lord” as historical, not future. And the prophecies in the O.T. that vividly describe the earthly blessings of Christ’s future, Messianic Kingdom on earth to follow, you spiritualize and apply instead to the Church.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Later, in Ephesians 5:28-30, we likewise read that husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.

Consequently, this passage alone seems to refute your distinction between ‘bride’ and 'wife that you noted before. The Church is already married to Christ right now. The bride analogy is rerering to an even greater expectation when ourselves and all of creation will be liberated from the bondage of sin and the Sons of God will be revealed.

First of all it is not referring to creation’s liberation from its bondage to sin. The passage you’re talking about Rom. 8:20-22, and in the context of believers receiving their glorified bodies - the resurrection. In that passage Paul states that at the time of the fall man even creation itself was subject to “corruption,” i.e., death (not sin) and is awaiting for the resurrection when it too will be set free from this bondage (death).

Ephesians 5:28-30 most certainly does refer to creation’s liberation from its bondage to sin…

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”

This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Why does Paul quote Genesis 2:24 as refering to Christ and his Church if the Old Testament knew about Christ but knew absolutely nothing about the Church as you have repeatedly claimed?

Start with Romans 7:1-6 and continue to read further on from there.

By Jewish law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.

So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress.

But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

We too also died to the law through the body of Christ, that we might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

These passages from Romans 7 lead right into Romans 8:20-22 and beyond by the way…

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

For in this hope we were saved.

But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.

We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

For that matter Romans 8:36 quotes Psalm 44:22 when the Scriptures say…

For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

Does this passage from Psalm 44:22 not likewise speaks of the Church age just as it speaks of Christ himself?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Now about the Church age, one might also want to look here and here too.

Consequently, let’s examine Hosea a bit closer…

For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

Hosea 5:15:

Then I will go back to my place
until they admit their guilt.
And they will seek my face;
in their misery they will earnestly seek me."

"Come, let us return to the LORD.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.

**After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence. **

Let us acknowledge the LORD;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth."

It appears rather obvious to some in cross-referencing Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 that the two days in which Israel would be scattered is two thousand years, which is further evidenced by the fact that the Diaspora lasted for two thousand years.

Saint Irenaeus certainly held this view.

This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed; it is evident therefore, that they will come to an end at the six thousand years.

Nonetheless, if these passages from Hosea do turn out to be prophetic of the duration of the Church age, especially with reference to the Israelites will living many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol, then these passages will not be prophetic by coincidence,

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Interestingly, Hosea continued to explain that at the end of two days the Lord would come and revive Israel. The prophet also may have included another clue as to when the Lord would come:

**“He would come as the latter and former rain”. **

The prophet Joel also foretold that when the Lord regathered Israel that He would restore unto the land both the former and the latter rain.

As an interesting curiousity, in the Pilgrim Study Bible, Joel 2:23 carries the following footnote:

There always used to be two rainy seasons in Palestine, one in the spring, the other in the fall. The second rain God withheld while Israel was scattered, but He promised to send it again about the time when Israel was going to return. It is interesting to note that it began again, lightly, about the beginning of the twentieth century, and has been increasing ever since.

The Pilgrim Study Bible was published in 1948. Since 1948 the rainfall in Israel has continued to increase, currently almost doubling the amount since the Jews began returning. When Israel is absent from the land it become barren and desolate. Because of the latter rain being restored, the land has once more blossomed as a rose (Isa. 35:1).

Also stated by Hosea and Joel, and implied by Isaiah, Amos, and other prophets, is the promise that when the Jews began to return, along with the return of the latter rain, the Messiah would come and fulfils God’s covenant with Israel.

While I admit that these later thoughts about the former and later rain could most certainly be a metaphor, I find it interesting that there may indeed be a literal fulfillment to these passages about the former and latter rain too. And if this is true, then this too is something within the Old Testament which speaks of the New Testament.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo, I think you’re under the false impression that inundating an opponent with a multitude of posts you win the argument. With the sheer number of your post it is impossible for me to answer in detail every comment or rebuttal you’ve made, so instead I’ve decided to confront three of the fundamental errors within your posts which directly pertain to your concealed/revealed theory regarding the Church.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Now lest you think I’m allegorizing this adoption into the nation of Israel, consider this…

Quote: Ephesians 2:11-22
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ…
The Church is an extension of ancient Israel apophasis-- whether you want to admit this or not.

Error # 1 You make a very common error when interpreting this Ephesians passage, “Mr. Ex.” It is true Ephesians chapters two and three speak of the Church, but what it does not do is identify the Church as Israel, or, as you claim, “an extension of ancient Israel.”

Paul makes five disqualifying charges toward Gentiles (as Gentiles) prior to the cross of Christ in Eph. 2:12: (1) They were separate from Christ, personally they were Christless and nationally they had no Messianic hope; (2) they were outside national Israel’s one divinely recognized commonwealth. In order to become a part of it a Gentile had to become a proselyte. (3) They were strangers to Israel’s covenants of promise – Paul is not denying that God had predicted through the Hebrew prophets great earthly blessings to Gentiles (as Gentiles) in the yet, future, Messianic, Kingdom age (Dan. 7:13-14; Micah 4:2); but he asserts here that God had entered into no covenant with them as He had with national Israel. (4) The Gentiles had “no hope” in that no covenant promise had been accorded them; (5) they were “without God in the world” and therefore could make no claim to His purpose or favor. As a people they formed that portion of humanity which was under the curse and doomed for destruction.

The Gentile world today knows little of its previous hopeless condition prior to the cross to which Paul makes reference here since we’ve been 2000 years into this Church age. But there was a vast difference between national Israel with the hope of its prophetic promises and national covenants and that of the Gentile nations steeped in idolatry.

But Paul introduces in verse 13 a wholly NEW divine purpose made possible solely on the ground of the death and bodily resurrection of Christ and the advent of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. This was the forming of a whole new “body” of heavenly (heaven-bound, Phil. 3:20) people drawn out from both Jews and Gentiles, each individual in that body perfected in Christ, and the whole company destined (apart from all merit) to be “the praise of the glory of His grace.”

Paul tells his Gentile audience that they, as Gentiles, who were at a previous time “far off” from God were now, because of their new position in Christ, “made near.” Not through the Church fulfilling Israel’s covenants, not by the individual Gentile becoming a proselyte to Judaism, but “by the blood of Christ.” To be “made near” to God is an exalted position unto which each believer is brought at the very moment he is saved through personal faith in Christ according to the efficacy of His shed blood in providing the righteous ground for divine grace, that every desire on the part of God, though prompted by infinite love, can now be satisfied completely on behalf of those who believe on Christ.

One must understand that during this Church age the Gentile is not elevated to the level of Jewish privilege, i.e., spiritually fulfilling Israel’s promised covenants and now identified as a “spiritual Jew,” but instead, during this Church age, the Jew is actually lowered to the level of the hopeless Gentile, through which either Jew or Gentile (as individuals) might be saved, justified, and sanctified through GRACE ALONE into a heavenly position and glory in Christ Jesus.

Continued to next post:

 

[apophasis]

Continued from previous post:

In Eph. 2:18 Paul teaches that since the cross of Christ both individual Jews and Gentiles now have their access "in one Spirit to the Father. Just as he taught the Corinthian believers that it is the Spirit Himsef who baptizes each individual, believing Jew and Gentile into the this whole new entity called the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), which is the Church, a whole new creation in Him. He goes on to describe this whole new creation as having been built upon the foundation of the N.T. Apostles and prophets - not the ancient Hebrew prophets nor the covenants God made specifically with national Israel.

And this reconciling of both Jew and Gentile believers into one new man was a “mystery in Christ,” totally unrevealed to previous generations, and that he, Paul, was personally given “insight” and a “stewardship” to reveal this unforeseen phenomena. It’s through Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired Epistles that we learn of his insight into this “mystery,” this sacred secret.

In other words, God’s teaching regarding this new, divine phenomena called His Church is primarily Pauline, unforeseen in O.T. times, and therefore unique to this Church age, beginning with the advent of the Spirit at Pentecost.

As Romans 2:28-29 clearly states, a man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. A man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

Error # 2 This is another interpretive error of the nonliteralist. You claim that Paul here is teaching that Gentiles become “spiritual Jews.” But in context Paul is not at all addressing Gentiles. Who he is addressing is found in Rom. 2:17:Rom. 2:17 "But if you bear the name Jew, and rely upon the Law, and boast in God…"Nowhere in this passage is he describing or stating that Gentiles become “spiritual Jews” through faith in Christ. He is describing a “true Jew” to Jews.

Why is James quoting Amos 9:11-12 in Acts 15:12-18 and clearly stating that the words of the prophets are in agreement with the fact that God was taking from the Gentiles a people for himself if the Hebrew prophets knew nothing of this Church age? I thought that you said that Amos actually knew nothing of this Church age too if I recall correctly? Why did you insert the (i.e., the calling out of His Church) in that passage above?

Error # 3 I explained all this in my original post. Your problem Mr. Ex is that you’re so quick to defend your position that you fail to comprehend what I write. Please focus for a moment.

If you look at Acts 15:16 you’ll see it quotes James as saying “After these things I will return.” James is not quoting Amos verbatim. Amos actually wrote “In that day I will return…” Both James and Amos are looking to the future, earthly Messianic kingdom when Christ Himself will rule on this present earth for 1000 years. But James agrees with Amos in that this Davidic kingdom described in this prophecy will not occur until “after these things.” After what things? This present Church age. The calling out of both Jews and Gentiles to make up the Body of Christ, the Church.

The question was whether or not Gentiles must be circumcised to enter into the Church. That is, must Gentiles become Jewish proselytes? The answer was no and James determined this by the fact that even Amos prophesied that Gentiles will be ushered into Christ’s future, Messianic Kingdom as Gentiles, not as proselytes to Judaism. Therefore it was his judgment that they should not trouble those who are now turning to God from among the Gentiles during this present Church age either.

IOW, Mr. Ex, James did not see the Church as now spiritually fulfilling Israel’s Kingdom promises articulated by the ancient Hebrew prophets. Nor did this prophecy by Amos see this present Church age. His and all the other prophecies regarding the Kingdom age would not be fulfilled until “after these things…,” i.e., after this present Church age.

The O.T. Hebrew prophets knew nothing of this Church age. They spoke to the first and second coming of Messiah and the glories of Israel during the future, Messianic age. But not the “sacred secret,” which for generations was hidden with God, the Church, the Body of Christ, His bride.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Mr. Ex Nihilo, I think you’re under the false impression that inundating an opponent with a multitude of posts you win the argument.

No. I am answering your points one-by-one. I’ve pointed out repeatedly how the New is concealed in the Old in response to your own arguments and points.

If you’re going to make as many claims as you are making, then you have to be prepared when someone actually takes the time to respond to every one of them.

Now stop projecting the innuendo on us by attempting to malign our defense under false motivations and stick to the debate.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It is true Ephesians chapters two and three speak of the Church, but what it does not do is identify the Church as Israel, or, as you claim, “an extension of ancient Israel.”

The text says this…

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

It then concludes…

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

The Scriptures say that we are fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household.

How on earth can you make the claim Ephesians 2 does not identify the Church as part of Israel?

Paul makes five disqualifying charges toward Gentiles (as Gentiles) prior to the cross of Christ in Eph. 2:12: (1) They were separate from Christ, personally they were Christless and nationally they had no Messianic hope; (2) they were outside national Israel’s one divinely recognized commonwealth. In order to become a part of it a Gentile had to become a proselyte. (3) They were strangers to Israel’s covenants of promise – Paul is not denying that God had predicted through the Hebrew prophets great earthly blessings to Gentiles (as Gentiles) in the yet, future, Messianic, Kingdom age (Dan. 7:13-14; Micah 4:2); but he asserts here that God had entered into no covenant with them as He had with national Israel. (4) The Gentiles had “no hope” in that no covenant promise had been accorded them; (5) they were “without God in the world” and therefore could make no claim to His purpose or favor. As a people they formed that portion of humanity which was under the curse and doomed for destruction.

The Gentile world today knows little of its previous hopeless condition prior to the cross to which Paul makes reference here since we’ve been 2000 years into this Church age. But there was a vast difference between national Israel with the hope of its prophetic promises and national covenants and that of the Gentile nations steeped in idolatry.

You’ve totally reversed the argument here.

What does the gentile nations not knowing of this future covenant with Israel have to do with the Hebrew Scriptures not knowing of the future covenent that God would make with the gentile nations through Israel?

I never said that the gentiles knew this age was coming. But the Hebrew prophets knew this ‘church age’ was coming even if the gentiles didn’t.

I’ve repeatedly stated that the Old Testament prophesied of the Church age-- and the Christian Scriptures repeatedly demonstrate this point by quoting the Hebrew Prophets and pointing toward characteristics of the Church when doing so.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But Paul introduces in verse 13 a wholly NEW divine purpose made possible solely on the ground of the death and bodily resurrection of Christ and the advent of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

It’s not NEW because the Hebrew prophets had no idea this Church age was even coming under this New Covenent-- which is what you’ve repeatedly claimed.

It’s NEW because previous generation had not experienced this kind of Covenent-- which is what Paul is talking about when he refers to this ‘mystery’.

apophasis:

One must understand that during this Church age the Gentile is not elevated to the level of Jewish privilege, i.e., spiritually fulfilling Israel’s promised covenants and now identified as a “spiritual Jew,” but instead, during this Church age, the Jew is actually lowered to the level of the hopeless Gentile, through which either Jew or Gentile (as individuals) might be saved, justified, and sanctified through GRACE ALONE into a heavenly position and glory in Christ Jesus.

Then why does Hebrews 8:6 say that the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises?

The Jews have not been ‘lowered’.

The Gentiles have been ‘raised up’.

Read the entire passage from Hebrews Chapter 8. Read it.

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Furthermore, according to Romans Chapter 8, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if we live according to the sinful nature, we will die; but if by the Spirit we put to death the misdeeds of the body, we will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

We did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

We are in a New Covenant under the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Continued from previous post:

In Eph. 2:18 Paul teaches that since the cross of Christ both individual Jews and Gentiles now have their access "in one Spirit to the Father. Just as he taught the Corinthian believers that it is the Spirit Himsef who baptizes each individual, believing Jew and Gentile into the this whole new entity called the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), which is the Church, a whole new creation in Him. He goes on to describe this whole new creation as having been built upon the foundation of the N.T. Apostles and prophets - not the ancient Hebrew prophets nor the covenants God made specifically with national Israel.

Then why do the Christian Scriptures repeatedly point toward the Hebrew Scriptures and claim that this new creation has begun under the Church age?

Have you even read what I quoted before?

I’m not quoting these things just to overwhelm your arguments with numerous posts. I’m quoting these things because there are numerous citations within the Christian Scriptures which specifically point toward the writings of the Hebrew Scriptures as having begun under the New Covenant of this Church age we live in.

apophasis:

And this reconciling of both Jew and Gentile believers into one new man was a “mystery in Christ,” totally unrevealed to previous generations, and that he, Paul, was personally given “insight” and a “stewardship” to reveal this unforeseen phenomena. It’s through Paul’s Holy Spirit inspired Epistles that we learn of his insight into this “mystery,” this sacred secret.

Then why are there numerous citations within the Christian Scriptures which specifically point toward the writings of the Hebrew Scriptures as having begun under the New Covenant of this Church age we live in?

apophasis:

In other words, God’s teaching regarding this new, divine phenomena called His Church is primarily Pauline, unforeseen in O.T. times, and therefore unique to this Church age, beginning with the advent of the Spirit at Pentecost.

Then why do the apostles quote the Old Testament (such as the Prophet Joel) on the Day of Pentecost in order to prove that we’ve entered the New Covenant of this Church age we live in now?

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Are we not in a New Covenant under the body and blood of Christ whereby God pours out his Holy Spirit in us, both Jew and Gentile, and guides us toward salvation?