The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You’re all over the place here, Ex.

That because the Church is all over the place in the Hebrew Scriptures whether you wish to see this or not apophasis.

The word “Church” means “convocation.” It designates the assembly of those whom God’s Word “convokes” (i.e., gathers together to form the People of God, and who themselves, nourished with the Body of Christ, become the Body of Christ).

The Church is both the means and the goal of God’s plan.

She was prefigured in creation.

She was prepared for in the Old Covenant.

She was founded by the words and actions of Jesus Christ, fulfilled by his redeeming cross and his Resurrection.

The Church has been manifested as the mystery of salvation by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

She will be perfected in the glory of heaven as the assembly of all the redeemed of the earth.

In short, the Church is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity, because God desires that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit.

That’s why I quoted Ephesians 2:19-22 to you. This passage of Scripture explains this very well…

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

By jove, I think you’ve got it, mate.

Yes. I do have it. You apparently aren’t getting this though.

In light of everything that’s been revealed in this thread, it is very clear that you are resisting the motion of the Holy Spirit when he attempts to reveal these things to you.

It is simply nonsense to claim that the Hebrew Scriptures were utterly silent, without even a hint or glimpse of the Church Age in Christ that we currently live in.

Nonetheless, you have some things correct since you do acknowledge Jesus as the Christ. You do, however, often fail to see how Christ manifests himself within his creation and his church.

Christ appears to us in the marriage covenant for example. He also appears to us in the poor and needy who stand before us too. Both these things are directly related to the Church he has established, which is a conduit by which the Holy Spirit continues to reveal Christ to the world-- ways that God himself reveals his own relationship between God and man.

That you are likewise unwilling to see the Church in the Old Testament simply because you disagree with the Spirit-led theology involved speaks volumes about your lack of understanding on these matters.

You said before that you didn’t know where I got my idea of a temple “without walls.” It’s not my idea apophasis. It’s right in the Scriptures if you’d care to examine them further.

I’ve already explained how Ephesians 2:19-22 implies a temple without walls. But look at Acts 17:24-28 as well…

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

God does not live in temples built by hands. God lives in us-- a church without walls, something which he has been building since the very beginning.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

He doesn’t.

Yes. He does.

Look…

Just as there were many who were appalled at him — his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness—

so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Now who is this one man so disfigured beyond that of any man, his form marred beyond human likeness?

Is this one man so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness not Jesus?

What effects on the nations of the world did the Hebrew Prophets perceive would result due to the suffering of this one man?

Will Jesus not shut the mouths of kings who have been in open rebellion against God?

How does this one man marred beyond human likeness sprinkle many nations for example?

Does this passage not say that this one man, Jesus, will sprinkle many nations via his appearance which was so disfigured beyond that of any man, via his form which was marred beyond human likeness?

Answer my questions and stop dodging them apophasis.

You’re fairly well reinterpreting everything that Christianity believes points toward Christ and his Church in the Old Testament-- reinterpretting them for the sake of your own dispensational eschatology which contradicts the Scriptural records that clearly point toward Christ and his Church in the Old Testament.

 

[apophasis]

Yes. I do have it. You apparently aren’t getting this though.

In light of everything that’s been revealed in this thread, it is very clear that you are resisting the motion of the Holy Spirit when he attempts to reveal these things to you.

It is simply nonsense to claim that the Hebrew Scriptures were utterly silent, without even a hint or glimpse of the Church Age in Christ that we currently live in.

Nonetheless, you have some things correct since you do acknowledge Jesus as the Christ. You do, however, often fail to see how Christ manifests himself within his creation and his church.

Christ appears to us in the marriage covenant for example. He also appears to us in the poor and needy who stand before us too. Both these things are directly related to the Church he has established, which is a conduit by which the Holy Spirit continues to reveal Christ to the world-- ways that God himself reveals his own relationship between God and man.

That you are likewise unwilling to see the Church in the Old Testament simply because you disagree with the Spirit-led theology involved speaks volumes about your lack of understanding on these matters.

You said before that you didn’t know where I got my idea of a temple “without walls.” It’s not my idea apophasis. It’s right in the Scriptures if you’d care to examine them further.

I’ve already explained how Ephesians 2:19-22 implies a temple without walls. But look at Acts 17:24-28 as well…

Yes, spiritually speaking, the Church Christ is building is a temple, “a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” But spiritually speaking it has a “foundation” and it has “walls,” meaning it has limitations. Only those who believe in and receive Christ as Savior and Lord during this Church age are part of this holy temple. The building, and its construction period, does not extend to ages past (O.T. period) nor to the age to come (Millennium).

God does not live in temples built by hands. God lives in us-- a church without walls, something which he has been building since the very beginning.

The beginning of what?

 

[apophasis]

I already clearly noted how Melchizedek bringing out the bread and the wine prefigured the Communion which we participate in our Church age. This is a prophetic revelation in the Old Testament which points directly to the New Testament era.

(1) Jesus became a High Priest (forever) according to the order of Melchizedek not because he brought bread and wine, but because of the power of an “indestructible life” (Heb. 7:16-17). (2) Again, this is in reference to Christ - not the Church. The O.T. anticipated Him, but knew nothing of the Church He would build.

 

[apophasis]

Christ’s church is his body apophasis. You can’t get around this part. To the extent that the Old Testament prophesies about Christ, the Old Testament also prophesies about his church.

It’s one thing to say the Church is the “body of Christ,” Christ Himself being the “head of the Church.” This being spiritual language. But it’s quite another to say the Church IS Christ. You’ve crossed over the line, my friend.

It is far from true that if the O.T. Scriptures spoke of and anticipated the coming of Christ they, by default, spoke of and anticipated the Church and this Church age. Paul is very clear when he states in the Book of Ephesians that the administration of this Church age was not revealed to past generations. Mind you, he does not say it was “concealed” in past generations, but that it was “not revealed” to past generations.

 

[spauline]

That is extremely interesting.

Did you write some of that material?

I wrote all of it! Although certain sparks to the ideas have come sometimes from other sources. Like the EWTN article that discussed the minor apostasy and trib before the great ones was a big help. Another person who told me about father kramer and his ideas that the fifth trumpet was protestantism was also an eye opener.

but anyway, hope it might help!

Blessings to you, Mr. Ex Nihilo!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It’s one thing to say the Church is the “body of Christ,” Christ Himself being the “head of the Church.” This being spiritual language.

Spiritual language?

I think it’s one thing to say the Scriptures means what it says– and quite another thing to say the Scriptures do not say what they mean.

In other words, in regards to the body of Christ within the Christian Scriptures, this is one those rare cases in the Scriptures where there really is no doubt about what the authors mean when they say something.

The Christian Scriptures are very clear that Christ’s church is his body apophasis. And to the extent that the Old Testament prophesies about Christ, the Old Testament also prophesies about his church too.

apophasis:

But it’s quite another to say the Church IS Christ. You’ve crossed over the line, my friend.

I’ve definitely crossed over the Tiber river about 7 years ago when I departed the Lutheran faith as the Holy Spirit called me to the fullness of truth found within the Catholic faith. But as far as crossing any lines regarding the proper exegesis of the Scriptural record, I’ve crossed nothing which would lead me into any error.

But speaking of crossing lines, where exactly do you draw the line between that which is considered a ‘spiritual language’ and that which is considered merely an ‘allegory’?

I ask because the line which you’ve drawn seems kind of arbitrary and capricious to me, fairly well haphazardly constructed around the mysteries of dispensational eschatology.

For example, when I point toward Melchizedek bringing out the bread & wine toward Abraham in the Hebrew Scriptures (after Abraham defeated God’s enemies) and claim that this literal event prophesied of the Lord Jesus instituting the Eucharist within the New Testament era (before Jesus defeated the devil on the cross), you seem to have no difficulty claiming that I’m allegorizing the Old Testament event in order to push the Scriptural record past what the Scriptural record actually intended.

But when you point toward the clear explanation within the Christian Scriptures which explicitly & repeatedly state that the Church is the body of Christ and then proceed to deny that the Old Testament also prophesied about his Church to the extent that the Old Testament prophesied about Christ, you seem to have no difficulty claiming that these passages which speak of the Church being the body of Christ are merely using a 'spiritual language which should not be taken literally.

At this point I think it is fair to ask exactly what the difference is between ‘allegory’ and ‘spiritual language’?

I ask because it appears to me that you are in fact doing exactly what you are repeatedly accusing us of doing.

I also think it’s important to note that we have not claimed that these past events were not supposed to be taken literally. In fact, we’ve been very clear that they are supposed to be taken literally. The difference between our view and your view is that we believe these literal events in the past prophesy of future literal events that have either happened already or else are yet to happen whereas you have repeatedly claimed that these literal events in the past bear absolutely no significance to the New Testament era.

I also think it’s important to note that we are actually expounding on God’s Word quite literally when it comes to these texts within the Christian Scriptures which speak of the Church as the body of Christ whereas you are in fact apparently allegorizing the Christian Scriptures away from the literal meaning when you claim that Church is the not actually considered the body of Christ because this is an example of a ‘spiritual language’ that should not be taken literally.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It is far from true that if the O.T. Scriptures spoke of and anticipated the coming of Christ they, by default, spoke of and anticipated the Church and this Church age.

And yet the Christian Scriptures are very clear that Christ’s church is his body apophasis.

So why exactly so you deny that the Old Testament also prophesies about his church to the extent that the Old Testament prophesies about Christ?

Paul is very clear when he states in the Book of Ephesians that the administration of this Church age was not revealed to past generations. Mind you, he does not say it was “concealed” in past generations, but that it was “not revealed” to past generations.

I’ve gone into detail explaining this-- see Mysterion and Mysteria: Part I, Mysterion and Mysteria: Part II, and Mysterion and Mysteria: Part III.

You really are pushing Paul’s words past what he actually intended so that you can insert the mysteries of your dispensational eschatology into Paul’s writings.

These mysteries are not as absolutely void of knowledge as you’re making them out to be. I’ve demonstrated this with all the other examples of where the Greek words mysterion and mysteria are employed within the Christian Scriptures too.

In fact, if they were as totally unknowable as what you claim, then a significant portion of your own dispensational eschatology would crumble before your eyes, such as the mysteries contained within 1 Corinthians 15:51, Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 17:5.

In other words, if 1 Corinthians 15:51, Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 17:5 are indeed mysteries in the same sense of that which Paul himself explained regarding the mystery of the union between the Jews and Gentiles within the Church age (these are the same Greek words after all), then exactly how is that you can explain so confidently what will happen in the future when clearly no one knows what these mysteries mean until they comes to pass?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yes, spiritually speaking, the Church Christ is building is a temple, “a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” But spiritually speaking it has a “foundation” and it has “walls,” meaning it has limitations.

Spiritually speaking, right?

apophasis:

Only those who believe in and receive Christ as Savior and Lord during this Church age are part of this holy temple. The building, and its construction period, does not extend to ages past (O.T. period) nor to the age to come (Millennium).

And yet the Christian Scriptures say in Hebrews 8:4-6 that the men who offered the gifts prescribed by the law served at a sanctuary that was a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle:

“See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

This comes back to Melchizidek

apophasis:

The beginning of what?

Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?

As Ecclesiastes 3:11 notes, God has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

And as Isaiah 41:4 asks (and answers), who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning?

I, the LORD -with the first of them and with the last—I am he.

Or, as Acts 17:25-28 makes very, very clear…

And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

Isaiah 46:10 also says…

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Jeremiah 17:12 also says…

A glorious throne, exalted from the beginning, is the place of our sanctuary.

You said before that Amos actually knew nothing of this Church age. And yet Amos himself actually said in Amos 3:7…

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

And Romans 1:17 states…

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

This phrase the righteous will live by faith comes from Habakkuk 2:4, indicating that yet another portion of the Gospel message was indeed known in Old Testament times-- from first to last at that.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The “restoration of all things” pertains to national Israel. This is what “his holy prophets” prophesied about.

You’re missing the point.

Acts 3:21 says that he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

In other words, long ago through his holy prophets God promised to restore everything after his Son remained in heaven for a while.

More importantly, this time from when the Messiah would rise up from the earth until the time the Messiah will return from heaven (the Church age) was prophesied long ago through God’s holy prophets.

It says so right there in Acts 3:21-- he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Consequently, that a general period where the Messiah would come and then bodilly leave to reign from heaven only to later bodilly return to fulfill the restoration of all things is not just found in Acts 3:21.

The Church age was prophesied as follows…
Psalm 110:1:

The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Hebrews 1:13 also picks up on this theme as well and asks…

To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

Later, in Hebrews 2:6-9, we read…

But there is a place where someone has testified:

What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?

You made him a for a little while lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
and put everything under his feet?

In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him.

Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

The passage which the author of Hebrews paraphrases comes from Psalm 8:4-6 again speaks of the Church age in which Christ would reign from heaven until everything was put under his feet, just as Psalm 110:1 prophesies and just as Acts 3:21 explains.

Is this time prophesied in the Old Testament during which the Son of God would reign from heaven until his enemies are made into his footstool not refering to the Church age we live in right now?

It seems that way to me.

Actually, it seems to me that Daniel speaks of the coming Church age as well…
Daniel 9:25-26:

"Know and understand this:

From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’

It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Interestingly, here we read that after the Messiah was to come, he was then to be ‘cut off’ and ‘have nothing’. This is a very strange statement to make, especially since the Messiah, according to Isaiah for example, was supposed to save Israel from its oppressors.

Nonetheless, the prophecy indicates that the messiah would be cut off almost as soon as he arrived-- he comes after the 62 weeks of years and he’s cut off after 62 weeks.

In addition to this, it’s strongly implied that the cutting off of the Messiah would be connected with the end of Jerusalem and her temple by war.

Consequently, 40 years after Jesus rose to heaven the Roman legions did indeed come and destroy Jerusalem and her temple— so this passage from Daniel most certainly does speak partially into the Church age, enough to speak of the destruction of the temple anyway.

David Haggith noted that the Tanakh translates Daniel’s “cutting off” of the Messiah as “the Anointed One will disappear and vanish.” We Christians do not believe that Christ remained dead of course. We believe that Christ was resurrected and then ascended into heaven— in some sense vanishing and not to be seen again except through faith until ‘the end’.

Perhaps the Tanakh is a better translation in this regard.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Consequently, 40 years after Jesus rose to heaven the Roman legions did indeed come and destroy Jerusalem and her temple— so this passage from Daniel most certainly does speak partially into the Church age, enough to speak of the destruction of the temple anyway.

Now speaking of the 40 years after Jesus rose to heaven, let’s compare the lives of Moses and Jesus for a moment.

Moses and Jesus both acted in the capacity of prophet, priest, lawgiver, teacher, and a leader of men. This much is not surprising-- since this is a common theme for almost all religious leaders.

Both revealed deeper truths about God based on previous revelations and both confirmed their teachings with miracles. This much is not surprising either-- just as I noted above.

In addition to this, however, both confronted demonic powers in their era and successfully subdued them. Both cured lepers and demonstrated spiritual authority via the miracles they performed before many witnesses. From here the similarities become more than a coincedence.

For example, both spent their early years in Egypt, supernatutally protected from the evil kings who slaughtered innocent children in their attempts to kill Moses and Jesus. This comparison is a little bit less than coincidence than the other three ‘general comparisons’ noted above.

Moses appointed 70 rulers to rule Israel whereas Jesus appointed 70 disciples to teach the nations. This is something within the Old Testament ministry which prophesies of the New Testsment ministry.

Moses sent 12 spies to explore Canaan whereas Jesus sent his 12 apostles to reach the world with the Gospel. This too is something within the Old Testament ministry which prophesies of the New Testsment ministry.

Both fasted for 40 days and faced deeper spiritual truths high upon the mountain tops. In fact, both of their faces radiated the glory of heaven-- Moses on Mount Sanai and Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration. This is not merely a coincidence.

Moses laid his hands upon Joshua so that he might have the authority to rule the Israelites when he was gone just as Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom as Primie Minister of the Church for when Christ bodilly would depart. This is not merely a coincidence either.

Moses also promised that God would send another Prophet like himself whereas Jesus promised that he would send the Holy Spirit to comfort us. This is definitely not a coincidence.

Just as Moses lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness to heal his people, Jesus was lifed up on the cross to heal all believers of thier sin. Similarly, just as Moses raised the staff with upraised arms so that the Amalekites might be destroyed, Jesus upraised his arms on the cross so that death might be destroyed. This is definitely not a coincidence either.

Likewise, just as Moses raised his staff at the Lord’s command in order to part the Red Sea between God’s people and the promised land so that the Israelites would be delivered from the King of Egypt, Jesus raised his arms on the cross at the Lord’s command in order to part the infinite gulfs of sin between God’s people and heaven so that the we may be delivered from the Prince of the Power of the Air. This is certainly not a coincidence.

In fact, on the 14th day of Nissan, the Feast of the Passover, both Moses and Jesus freed all who would trust them. This was certainly planned.

On the 17th day of Nissan, the Feast of the Firstfruits, Moses baptized the Isrealites as they passed through the parted waters of the Red Sea whereas Jesus became the Firstfruits of the resurrection when he arose from the dead. This was certainly planned too.

50 days after the Feast of Firstfruits God gave the Israelites the Torah through Moses whereas the God gave Christians the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus-- both on the day of Pentecost. This was not just certainly planned. This was prophesied well in advance.

Nonetheless, despite the spritual leadership of both men, many of the Jewish people were ultimately ungrateful to both men and eventually rebelled against them. In fact, both generations that rebelled against these two men sent from God died due to their lack of faith within a generation of 40 years-- one generation died lost in the wilderness of Sanai whereas the other generation died lost in the seige of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. And, of course, this was prophesied too.

And since we’ve gone to about A,D, 70, we’ve only just begun the Church age-- something which has obviously and definitely been prophesied time and time again all throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.

One only needs to have the faith to discern this. So I pray that the Lord would allow those who read this to have their spirit’s enabled to see these truths which require the spiritual discernment of the Holy Spirit to see.

God bless you richly in Christ.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I wrote all of it! Although certain sparks to the ideas have come sometimes from other sources. Like the EWTN article that discussed the minor apostasy and trib before the great ones was a big help. Another person who told me about father kramer and his ideas that the fifth trumpet was protestantism was also an eye opener.

but anyway, hope it might help!

Blessings to you, Mr. Ex Nihilo!

We seem to be very like-minded.

May Mary cover you in her love like the dew on a warm spring morning.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

(1) Jesus became a High Priest (forever) according to the order of Melchizedek not because he brought bread and wine, but because of the power of an “indestructible life” (Heb. 7:16-17).

I didn’t say that Jesus became a High Priest (forever) according to the order of Melchizedek because he brought bread and wine.

I clearly noted how Melchizedek bringing out the bread and the wine prefigured the Communion which we participate in our Church age. This is a prophetic revelation in the Old Testament which points directly to the New Testament era.

quote=apophasis Again, this is in reference to Christ - not the Church. The O.T. anticipated Him, but knew nothing of the Church He would build.
[/quote]

And yet the Church brings forth bread and wine for the Eucharist just as the Old Testament prophesied through the literal actions of Melchizedek.

 

[Zooey]

Yet Paul himself, whose writings are also Holy Spirit inspired, emphatically states that this church administration was in other generations not known to the sons of men, but this “mystery” was now made known and revealed through him (Eph. 3).This is actually a very accuate pictorial depiction of the O.T. prophets. Sometimes an artist will depict them as seeing from one mountain top to another. Always there’s an explanation to accompany the picture.Artists have always depicted Biblical truths (stained glass windows are in many churches. Go to the Vatican and look up at the ceiling). And the one you refer to is in fact very Biblically based. It’s only the non-literalists, the Amillennialists, who disagree with it.

The wind must be southerly; I can tell a hawk from a handsaw…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Jer. 31:31-40 is the prophecy concerning the New Covenant. Read further as Jeremiah elaborates even more on this future Covenant in 32:37-44. All within the context of national Israel.

And yet Romans 9:6-9 says…

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children.

On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”

In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

The Scripture elaborate on these points in detail later…
Romans 11:25-32:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

As Romans 2:28-29 clearly states, a man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

A man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 6:4 say that we were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

And Colossians 2:12 likewise says that we have been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through our faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

As Romans 7:6 notes, now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Remember how I said above that 50 days after the Feast of Firstfruits God gave the Israelites the Torah through Moses whereas the God gave Christians the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus– both on the day of Pentecost?

Now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Indeed, as 2 Corinthians 3:3 notes, we show that we are a letter from Christ, the result of the apostolic ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

As Colossians 2:13-15 states…

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

This comes back to Colossians 2:9-12…

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

We have been given fullness in Christ apophasis-- and the Christian Scriptures are very clear that Christ’s church is his body too.

Through our baptism in Christ we have been adopted into God’s family so that Jesus fulfills our Jewish identity for us. Christ not only bore our sins for us for example. He was also circumcized for us too-- and in this way we have been adopted into the nation of Israel through Christ.

As Galatians 3:29 clearly states…

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Or, as Romans 8:17 notes…

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

In such way, we are indeed brothers and sisters of the Lord. And by virtue of our adoption into God’s family through Christ our Lord God he has given us a share of his divine authority to clearly manifest the Lord in our lives powerfully throughout the world as the Spirit moves us to conquer the adversary and all his evil works.

 

[onenow1]

HI,
Did’nt read all posts however thought this may add to your discussion.

Luke 24: 27, Then begginig with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what reffered to him in all the scriptures.

Peace
OneNow1

 

[spauline]

We seem to be very like-minded.

May Mary cover you in her love like the dew on a warm spring morning.

thanks.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

HI,
Did’nt read all posts however thought this may add to your discussion.

Luke 24: 27, Then begginig with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what reffered to him in all the scriptures.

Peace
OneNow1

That’s a good point.

But apophasis does at least acknowledge that Christ himself was prophesied and often prefigured in the Old Testament. It’s his claim that the Hebrew Scriptures were utterly silent, without even a hint or glimpse of the Church Age in Christ that we currently live in that we’re debating in detail.

His a quick summary of his views-- something which I disagree with. In light of eveything that’s been discussed in this thread, apophasis’ claim makes no sense to me.