The new translation is horrible

[otjm]

You really don’t like the Latin Mass do you? Don’t you feel a bit guilty about criticizing a rite that has existed for hundreds of years, and that has been developed and built upon over time? I mean come on, we’re talking about a rite of the Mass, we are not talking the color of the paint on the church walls. Show some respect.

Actually, that is a bit of a leap (which may or may not be true) from his comments to your conclusion.

To begin with, it is better to refer to either the EF, which is said in Latin almost exclusively, or the OF said in Latin.

One can far, far prefer the vernacular to the Latin, and not have much concern whether it is the EF or the OF. In fact, one could far prefer the EF but want it said in the vernacular; there are three issue at play: the rubrics, the prayers themselves, and the language in which the Mass is said.

Respect can be maintained because to an extent, the reactions are emotionally driven. People who don’t know a stitch of Latin can prefer the EF; people who prefer the prayers of the EF can prefer to hear them said in the vernacular, and the rubrics in either Mass form are going to be different to a degree no matter what language the Mass is said in.

It is not disrespectful to prefer to worship in one’s own language. Nor is it necessarily disrespectful to like one form of the Mass (EF/OF) over the other as the matter is often more of an emotional reaction than anything. Emotions are neither respectful nor disrespectful. They are simply emotions. They are not logically driven.

And that is not to downplay the differences between the two forms of the Mass nor to say that there may not be very valid reasons to support the EF or to support the OF. Even Pope Benedict in his accompanying letter indicated there were good things to be had from the OF which could positively influence the EF.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Let’s just change the language used everywhere to Esperanto and be done with it.

 

[Monica4316]

I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.

This applies only to Catholics in the United States, by the way.

I mean come on. “And with your spirit”? That makes no sense in the context we say it in. “Lord I am not worthy that you be under my roof”? Taken from the Gospels, but makes no sense in the context that it’s said in during Mass. And no more “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”? That’s a pretty important thing to say and believe.

The Mass wasn’t too conversational. People should be able to talk to God easily and in language they understand. Now it just sounds too stiff, formal, and makes no sense.

well it’s the same words as were in the Mass all throughout history, and in Scripture… it’s the other translation that is wrong, not the new one the new one is more accurate to the original.

 

[Tietjen]

I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.

No, this is just opinion. And one that I do not happen to share.

 

[asia53]

well it’s the same words as were in the Mass all throughout history, and in Scripture… it’s the other translation that is wrong, not the new one the new one is more accurate to the original.

Definitely more accurate! Last night, I attended a lecture given by Sister Esther of the Religious Sisters of Alma, MI, about the new translations. She’s a professor at St. John Vianney Seminary in Denver.

We compared the original Latin, old translations, and new translations. The new translations seem to convey more accurately the meaning of the original Latin.

As hard as it is to believe, I felt the new translations added more depth, more beauty.

 

[asia53]

And no more “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”? That’s a pretty important thing to say and believe.

FYI:
During the lecture, I attended last night on the new translations, this came up. Sister Esther, a professor from St. John Vianney, said: the above comes from Children’s Mass. It was left in by the previous commission on translations. She also said: the new commission was asked to leave it, but they politely refused.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

jmcrae

Yes, if you bulldoze a beautiful building because it can’t be retro-fitted to accommodate wheelchairs, everyone becomes poorer.

Every building can become wheelchair accessable. Those that can’t, if privately owend get grandfathered.

Buildings are not private entities; they belong to the communities in which they were built.

Privately owned buildings belong to the owner, not the community.

If someone removes a building, it’s exactly the same as if someone removed an article of heirloom furniture from your house.

Not necessarily. Historical land marks get waivers and don’t have to be torn down because they can’t be made handicapped accessable. I live in Massachusetts and
visit these historical sites all the time. Not all of them are handicapped acessable.

Listen, if you think the law is a bad idea, I have an idea that will help you to see the light.

Get yourself a wheel chair, and spend a week-end in it and see how wonderful it is.

Now back to the subject of the thread.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

otjm

I am thinking that you and Simon may, to a certain extent, be talking about two somewhat different things.

Simon earlier had suggested that saying some of the prayers we recite, in Latin, on occasion, is a good thing.

You seem to be responding to having the entire Mass in Latin.

Would you agree with Simon’s earlier comment, that saying, for example, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin, on occasion, could be a good thing for the people in the pews?

No, it would not be a good thing in most parishes and what purpose does saying those parts in Latin do? Don’t get me wrong, if a Parish wants Latin, go for it. If its just a few in the parish, I said, stay with what the majority wants. The Mass is for everyone, not just those who want to feel more Catholic by having Latin at Mass.

I have frequently attended the Novus Ordo at a Benedictine Monastery, where those parts of the Mass are in Latin. It doesn’t serve any purpose other than to make it sound unique from Masses said in parishes.

In fact, the nuns and monks take turns singing the Latin parts acapella. They labor through it and would do everyone a service, to just translate the hymns into English as the Trappist monastery nearby did.

Jim

 

[jmcrae]

Get yourself a wheel chair, and spend a week-end in it and see how wonderful it is.

I was confined to my bed for six weeks after being hit by a bus one time, but it did not occur to me to confine everyone else to their beds, just because I wasn’t allowed to get up.

If someone is in a wheelchair, we need to care for them and do our best for them, but we shouldn’t destroy everything that they can’t use, just to make it be as if we were all in wheelchairs.

There are things other people can do, that I can’t do. I’m not going to say, “Oh, you aren’t allowed to do that, because I can’t participate.” Instead, I focus on what I can do, and let others do what they can do.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Damase

I suppose this depends on whether you see the Mass as being a) primarily people-centered, or b) primarily God-centered.

The Mass is God centered and for feeding His people spiritually. Christ gave the Mass to us and for us. It doesn’t make a difference to God if we say the Mass in Latin or Chinese. It does make a difference to us who are participating in the Mass if we fully participate and understand it or not.

If you see the Mass as something that is primarily for the people, I can imagine why having an only-vernacular Mass would make sense. “The Mass, after all, is about us—we are the people of God, etc. etc.” This mentality leads to abuses of the liturgy, such as hosts of EMHCs (“all the better to foster our ‘active participation’”), impositions of the priest’s personality onto the Mass (“Mass, after all, ought to be entertaining; so why shouldn’t Father dress up like a clown? It makes the children laugh”), and non-liturgical music (“I want Somewhere Over the Rainbow played at my funeral because it’s my favorite song”).

If you believe that Latin would make the Mass less likely for abuse, think again. I saw the abuse in the TLM before Vatican II. Mostly, the abuse was skipping parts or saying parts rapidly, in order to get it over with.

But if you see Mass as being primarily God-centered, then you realize that it not, first and foremost, about you.

Its about God and us, its our response to the faith God has given us. God doesn’t need the Mass, we do.

The Church prays in Latin because she wants to be certain that her praise to God is exactly what she means it to be.

The Church prays in many languages, not just Latin, The embrace of Latin is out of tradition and culture of the past. Latin is to be preserved because we are an international Church made up of people from many different languages. Masses at the Vatican will use Latin because many people from different tongues are visiting. However, when those people go home, I’m sure Mass in their native language is appreciated.

Moreover, it sends two messages: first of all, that of continuity, both of expression and of visible form, with the Church’s history, and second, that the Mass does not, in fact, depend on your understanding.

Sure, the Mass can be said in a Language that I don’t have to understand. Its still the Mass. However, the purpose of Vatican II was to make the Mass more accessible to the people so that we could more fully participate.

Even in English, the Mass is a mystery. The problem with the vernacular is that people believe that when a thing is immediately comprehensible them them, that they’ve got it “under their belt”. That is not the case with Holy Mass, and people ought to be reminded of that.

I don’t see the Mass as a mystery. I understand it perfectly well. I don’t understand what your saying here, and how Latin will do anything to improve it.

I’m not saying here that the considerations of the people are completely irrelevant to the way Mass should be celebrated, but rather, that a certain hierarchy of goods must be respected.

Consideration of the people is why Vatican II was called. The Church mission isn’t to operate in the abstract, but rather, to help bring people closer to God.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you cannot tell the difference between the above statement and claiming that God only hears prayers in Latin, then you have no business posting here.

Well with this nasty post and some others that follow which are begining to become personal attacks, I’m outta here.

I’ve said all I have to say on the subject.

I’m unsubscribing

Have a nice day.

Jim

 

[Damase]

I don’t see the Mass as a mystery. I understand it perfectly well.

Emphases mine:

First of all we wish to recall something which is well known to you but which is altogether necessary for repelling every virus of rationalism, something to which many illustrious martyrs have witnessed with their blood, while celebrated Fathers and Doctors of the Church constantly professed and taught it; that is, that the Eucharist is a very great mystery. In fact, properly speaking, and to use the words of the sacred liturgy, it is the Mystery of Faith. “Indeed, in it alone,” as Leo XIII, our predecessor of happy memory very wisely remarked, “are contained, in a remarkable richness and variety of miracles, all supernatural realities.”

We must therefore approach especially this mystery with humble respect, not following human arguments, which ought to be silent, but adhering firmly to divine revelation.

—Pope Paul VI, Mysterium Fidei (3 September 1965)

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t see the Mass as a mystery.

It is the greatest mystery of all - Christ’s death and resurrection, re-presented for us in signs and symbols that actually are and do the things they signify.

I understand it perfectly well.

That’s a miracle. I wish I did!

I don’t understand what your saying here, and how Latin will do anything to improve it.

The Latin would remind us that, whether we hear the words in Latin or in English, the things they signify are beyond our human comprehension.

Consideration of the people is why Vatican II was called. The Church mission isn’t to operate in the abstract, but rather, to help bring people closer to God.

Yes, it is. But we have gone too far to the other side of the road. How are people to be brought closer to God, if they already think they are sitting in His lap, and don’t realize that there is still some further distance to travel?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Emphases mine:

First of all we wish to recall something which is well known to you but which is altogether necessary for repelling every virus of rationalism, something to which many illustrious martyrs have witnessed with their blood, while celebrated Fathers and Doctors of the Church constantly professed and taught it; that is, that the Eucharist is a very great mystery. In fact, properly speaking, and to use the words of the sacred liturgy, it is the Mystery of Faith. “Indeed, in it alone,” as Leo XIII, our predecessor of happy memory very wisely remarked, “are contained, in a remarkable richness and variety of miracles, all supernatural realities.”

We must therefore approach especially this mystery with humble respect, not following human arguments, which ought to be silent, but adhering firmly to divine revelation.

—Pope Paul VI, Mysterium Fidei (3 September 1965)

How the bread and wine become that of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is indeed a mystery, that’s what Pope Paul VI is saying here.

That’s not what I meant. When I said that I don’t see the Mass as a mystery, I meant its not a mystery of what is taking place in its celebration.

The Mass is the living Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, to God the Father, for our salvation.

Jim

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is “men” being removed from the Nicene Creed?

I was at Divine Liturgy this morning and in the book I was using, well the Filioque was erased with white out, but I did notice someone crossed out with a pen the word “men in the Creed”. I went online to check if its just some dissident in the pew or if the Church (either the Eastern Church or the entire Catholic Church) has made the change and to my surprise in one text I found for the 2011 retranslation of the Roman Missal, it does just say, “For us and for our salvation”. So it that the official new translation?

 

[VetA]

People became less intelligent past the 1960s?

i think so…

and i am not saying that to be a jackass i really believe it.

 

[VetA]

A few general comments.

About comprehension of the Mass: Pope Pius XII wrote the following in his encyclical on the liturgy, Mediator Dei: “Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them.”

This might seem “backward” to you, but take a moment to re-read it. Don’t you see what a liberal approach to liturgical participation it is? It is not necessary for the liturgy to be in some sort of lowest common denominator.

Latin in the liturgy: Whoever mentioned that Vatican II mentioned “full, conscious, and active participation” and that the faithful should be able to make the responses in Latin, thank you. I agree with you 100%. The Council Fathers did not consider a Latin ordinary (the unchanging parts) to be opposed to the participation of the faithful.

About Latin vs. the vernacular: It is a fallacy to assume that the faithful understand the prayers of the Mass simply because the words are in the vernacular. The “one in being with the Father” line of the Creed is a good example of that. The vernacular texts can be just as rotely memorized and unpassionately murmured as any Latin. Is a Latin text read from a page any better than a vernacular text read from a page, or recited from memory, if the person doesn’t pray the words, but merely says them?

that is one of the most intelligent statements made in this thread thus far

 

[VetA]

Let’s just change the language used everywhere to Esperanto and be done with it.

HAHA

 

[MarkThompson]

Is “men” being removed from the Nicene Creed?

I was at Divine Liturgy this morning and in the book I was using, well the Filioque was erased with white out, but I did notice someone crossed out with a pen the word “men in the Creed”. I went online to check if its just some dissident in the pew or if the Church (either the Eastern Church or the entire Catholic Church) has made the change and to my surprise in one text I found for the 2011 retranslation of the Roman Missal, it does just say, “For us and for our salvation”. So it that the official new translation?

The USCCB’s site shows that “for us men” will continue to be the translation.

 

[VetA]

otjm

No, it would not be a good thing in most parishes and what purpose does saying those parts in Latin do? Don’t get me wrong, if a Parish wants Latin, go for it. If its just a few in the parish, I said, stay with what the majority wants. The Mass is for everyone, not just those who want to feel more Catholic by having Latin at Mass.

I have frequently attended the Novus Ordo at a Benedictine Monastery, where those parts of the Mass are in Latin. It doesn’t serve any purpose other than to make it sound unique from Masses said in parishes.

In fact, the nuns and monks take turns singing the Latin parts acapella. They labor through it and would do everyone a service, to just translate the hymns into English as the Trappist monastery nearby did.

Jim

thats a bs statement man and you know it, they probably prefer it like that. dont have such a bad attitude toward latin, i can tell you for a fact that i dont attend an EF on sunday because i think its diferent, i attend because i get more out of the beauty and (most importantly) the prayers there. as for a NOVVS ORDO in Latin maybe they want to have the beauty of the Latin language and also be sure that nothing is ‘lost in translation’ in the prayers.