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ConstantineTG
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Alright, thanks! Thats good to hear.
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pnewton
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Indeed. It is also good to see us return to the topic.
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JimR-OCDS
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VetA
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can the charitable stuff man you know that what you said uncharitable, merely returning the sentiment you accused the monks of saying the mass in Latin just to be different, that sir was unloving => uncharitable,
oh and btw sir i love how you latch on that one part of my whole response and call me uncharitable. heres a lack of charity for you (and yes feel free to report this to the mods and berate me for it) people like you, who use charity (or others supposed lack thereof) as a way to de-legitimize perfectly sound arguments for your own agenda, make me sick. but then again it is to be expected of the typical Massachusetts liberal, just like my older brother
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SimonDodd
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What purpose? Well, if it does nothing else at all (a point I would dispute), it is the most efficient way to ensure that the faithful are able to say/sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. You surely can’t dispute that that is an important goal, and it would be tough to say that actually using Latin for those parts, even if only from time-to-time, is a useful step to accomplishing it.otjm:
No, it would not be a good thing in most parishes and what purpose does saying those parts in Latin do?
Right. Just follow the majority. They’re always right—so teaches St. Paul in 2 Tim 4:3-5.
It does, you just don’t like it or see any value in the purposes it serves. There’s a difference.
You again presume a false dichotomy which, if true sets one part of Sacrosanctum Concilium at war with another part. The council mandated that latin would remain the language of the latin rites and that the rites be simplified and made more accessible. The council saw no contradiction. Yet you set these goals in opposition; it’s not so much that you’re unfaithful to the council (though your comments here have been), but that you’re better than the council, because you’re smarter, and you don’t have to compromise with those mean old conservatives—just gimme the knife of the “conciliar spirit” and I can excise those things that were only thrown in to appease the bad guys!
Amen! Jim, your attitude on this is shameful. I find it hard to believe that anyone seriously entertains so destructive and self-absorbed a mindset—although since people passed those laws, I suppose they’re out there. It’s reprehensible. Your comment above and the one earlier boil down to “if I can’t have it, no one can,” and it’s the mindset of someone who never quite left kindergarten.
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Canto
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How can we tell? Active participation is above all interior.
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otjm
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Well, for starters, we don’t have too many people sitting in Mass reading a devotional book or saying the Rosary any more.
I have attended Masses in Washington, Montana, North Dakota, Utah, California and Oregon so my exposure is by no means universal; on the other hand, it is a bit more than attending two or three parishes in my diocese.
Not all people pick up the missals and read along; but it is obvious that people are paying attention. I go back far enough that people did not have any participation through singing or responses, and participation has picked up since then. In addition, the drop-off of the use of other materials than the missal is indicative that people are not using other items to fill in the time during Mass.
Participation of the whole Catholic community, on the other hand, has dropped; it was a high of about 72% in the late 1950’s and has gradually eroded over time to somewhere in the 25% to 30% range of Catholics attending Mass on a regular basis.
Yes, participation is internal, it is also external. And while none of us can speak to the internal participation level without asking parishoners one by one, the external participation has increased.
My response, however, was to a post that seemed to be focusing on fewer Catholics attending Mass. I don’t believe that the first poster was alluding to attendance, but the response to his post seemed to be directed to that.
Neither you nor I can say that people are not simply taking up space during Mass now; but neither can we say that they were not doing the same thing before the change to the Mass occurred. What has occurred is the almost complete elimination of other forms of piety use during the Mass, which certainly lends itself to a statement that there is greater participation.
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Canto
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Someone can say all the prayers and acclamations, kneel, stand, bow etc all at the right times and still not really particiapate. I know that from my own past personal experience.
Somone (though praying the Mass is better) could arguably pray the Rosary and participate more.
Therefore, O Lord,
as we celebrate the memorial of the blessed Passion,
the Resurrection from the dead,
and the glorious Ascension into heaven
of Christ, your Son, our Lord
This is one example (from the Roman Canon) that we meditate on in the Rosary.
Mass is the sacrifice of Calvary (Sorrowful) for the adoration of God (Gloria Patri, Our Father) and our sanctification (fruits of the Rosary mysteries)
Mediator Dei (as referenced earlier by another poster) #108
“Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. …On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly** meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ **or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them” Pope Pius XII).
**On Praying the Rosary During Mass **
gregorianrite2007.blogspot.com/2010/08/on-praying-rosary-during-mass.html
fascinating! Deals with the old EF Rosary claim and active participation but short
[please note I disagree with some bits]
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otjm
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I don’t think I said anything to the contrary. It is possible now to show up, turn off the brain, go through Mass with no awareness at all, and leave. It was possible before the change to the Mass. That does not say that people are not more participatory now than before.
If one is present at an officla liturgical function (the Mass), it is an oxymoron to say one is participating better by saying the Rosary (a private devotion). One is not participating at all, as one is doing something else. It may be very holy to say the Rosary, but saying the Rosary is not participating in Mass.
Read my comment above. Let me give a poor analogy: someone invites you over for dinner; while you are there, you sit in the parlor reading a magazine; when dinner starts, you bring the magazine to the table and read while eating; when done with dinner you get up and leave.
If you don’t get the analogy, pursuing this is pointless.
Saying the Rosary while at Mass is engaging in a private devotion while a public official liturgical function is in progress. That is not attending Mass; it is saying the Rosary.
Interesting that we drag out what Pius 12th said before Vatican 2 - it should give some understanding as to why the 2000, give or take a few, bishops of the world wanted some changes made to the Mass. And if I recall correctly, they signed a document which effectively vetoed his comment.
I read the post; there are red herrings in the issue. One does not have to be a screwball liturgist to tear it apart.
For example, one does worship also by the body posture. But if one is intent on the Rosary and simply stands or kneels because that is what everyone else is doing, the posture is irrelevant to the worship going on as one is simply mimic what others are doing. One has to have some engagement with the Mass; otherwise we would ahve to accept that a Hindu, wandering into a Church and standing, sitting and kneeling because everyone else does is worshiping Christ. Sorry, that dog don’t hunt.
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Canto
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Lovingly meditating on the mysteries of Jesus Christ at Mass is surely better than merely copying what everyone else is doing with little idea as to the profound whys.
Of course if able it would be better to learn about the Mass.
And I recall correctly that document said many things about Latin, Chant, Organ, Noble simplicity, only removing things if profane etc, that have been completly ignored in some quaters. And this was an ecumenical council no less.
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