The new translation is horrible

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I think there are parts of the new translation that DO sound awkward. I think some of the lines in the Gloria and in the creed take the focus away from the meaning of the words and put the focus on the grammar.

But I really don’t have a problem with, “And with your spirit,” and “under my roof,” because those were the same as the earliest English translations used at Mass so they are familiar too me.

And I suspect many converts were used to hearing, “And with your spirit,” as well since many liturgical Protestant communities didn’t switch to, “And also with you,” until several years after the Catholic Church did.
 
I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.

This applies only to Catholics in the United States, by the way.
Actually this applies to Roman Catholics wherever the Mass is said in English. The new translation is or will be promulgated for English Missals in the US, Canada, Australia, The Philippines, etc.
I mean come on. “And with your spirit”? That makes no sense in the context we say it in.
As I mentioned in the previous post, this is exactly the accurate translation for the response and its found not only in the Roman Missal but also in the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Church. So there’s plenty of significance to this response that is it used universally throughout the entire Church.
“Lord I am not worthy that you be under my roof”? Taken from the Gospels, but makes no sense in the context that it’s said in during Mass.
We express our unworthiness as sinners in receiving Jesus Christ. We invoke this passage because the Roman Centurion was not a believer, he wasn’t even a Jew. Yet he saw Jesus Christ and believed in Him. And like us on so many levels we are not worthy of Jesus Christ, but we believe in His healing power.
And no more “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”? That’s a pretty important thing to say and believe.

The Mass wasn’t too conversational. People should be able to talk to God easily and in language they understand. Now it just sounds too stiff, formal, and makes no sense.
The Mass should be as it is, prayers. Drawing it out to become explanatory would remove the solemness or prayerful nature of Mass. For that we have to go outside of Mass and understand why such is said and such is done during Mass.
 
I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.

This applies only to Catholics in the United States, by the way.

I mean come on. “And with your spirit”? That makes no sense in the context we say it in.
True. “Et cum spiritu tuo” sounds way better. 😉

Don’t worry - you’ll get used to it. “And with thy spirit” is more correct, because we aren’t returning the priest’s blessing to him (which is what it sounds like we’re doing when we say “and also with you,”) but rather, we are acknowledging the source of the blessing, which is the spirit of Christ working through the priest by means of his ordination.
 
I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.

This applies only to Catholics in the United States, by the way.

I mean come on. “And with your spirit”? That makes no sense in the context we say it in. “Lord I am not worthy that you be under my roof”? Taken from the Gospels, but makes no sense in the context that it’s said in during Mass. And no more “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”? That’s a pretty important thing to say and believe.

The Mass wasn’t too conversational. People should be able to talk to God easily and in language they understand. Now it just sounds too stiff, formal, and makes no sense.
It’s worth remembering, I think, that it’s not as though these things sound totally normal and conversational in the Latin. Frankly, a lot of liturgical Latin is quite stilted, even from a Latin point of view. “I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof” isn’t, you know, a Latin idiom that loses meaning in English – on it’s face, it’s just as puzzling in Latin as it is in the new translation.

I tend to disagree that the current translations are “bad” in the sense a lot of people claim (“Haw haw, even a first-year Latin student would know that ‘Et cum spiritu tuo’ doesn’t mean ‘And also with you’! LOL!”). It’s not that the writers of our current texts were bad at translating, it’s that they opted in many cases to rewrite rather than translate. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that approach; one could imagine, in theory, the Holy See prescribing that, within the general limits of the liturgy and with its own approval, every episcopal conference should rewrite the Latin text to make it meaningful and understandable in the local language. But that is not the approach that has been taken.

So, it there are things we don’t care for in the new text, we should take care to distinguish “I wouldn’t have translated it that way” from “I wouldn’t have written it that way in the first place.” “I am not worthy to receive you” is not a really translation of (the Latin for) “I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof”; it’s a simplified way of getting the underlying meaning across. It’s not a translation error so much as the result of a different conception of how the vernacular texts of the Mass should be created (as far as I know, just for the English; other languages have always used texts that are much more translations than reimaginings). I think your sense that “the new translation is horrible” is really a criticism that the original texts – which, due to the accuracy of the new translation, you are now being genuinely exposed to for the first time – are horrible. I guess you’re entitled to that view, but let’s not shoot the messenger (the translators) if we don’t like the message (the actual texts and prayers).
 
We express our unworthiness as sinners in receiving Jesus Christ. We invoke this passage because the Roman Centurion was not a believer, he wasn’t even a Jew. Yet he saw Jesus Christ and believed in Him. And like us on so many levels we are not worthy of Jesus Christ, but we believe in His healing power.
Not only that, the Centurion’s response did something that happened no where else in the Gospels. It AMAZED Christ!. The Centurions response is also a prayer to have the same type of Faith that the Centurion had, an Amazing one.

The current translation is so convoluted that people do not recognize that it is (supposed to be) a passage from Holy Scripture.
 
While change is always difficult, I think we need to approach the new translations with a positive attitude. Let’s look at it this way – people who haven’t picked up a missal or uttered a prayer out loud in Church for years will have their ears shaken up and perhaps pick one up and actually read it and maybe even pray it!

Also, I love “under my roof” because we receive Jesus, literally, under the roof of our mouth!!
 
I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.
I didn’t know that “horrible” was an objective discription i.e a “fact”. Always thought it was an opinion.

How about that? Learn something new every day.

:rolleyes: Yes, liberal amounts of sarcasm introduced.

But seriously, it will take some getting used to. Some of the new language seems very awkward to me as well.
 
“And with your spirit”? That makes no sense in the context we say it in.
Please explain why it makes no sense in the context we say it in.
“Lord I am not worthy that you be under my roof”? Taken from the Gospels, but makes no sense in the context that it’s said in during Mass.
Again, please explain why.
And no more “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”? That’s a pretty important thing to say and believe.
It doesn’t exist in the Latin text, it was an American addition to the Missal in the past, and it is no longer being added to the translation. I find it somewhat disappointing that the American innovation (“Christ has died…”) nearly completely overshadowed the actual texts provided for the “Mystery of Faith”. It also was unlike the Latin texts, which address the Lord; “Christ has died” speaks about Him, not to Him.
People should be able to talk to God easily and in language they understand. Now it just sounds too stiff, formal, and makes no sense.
That’s the third time you’ve said the new translation makes no sense, without explaining why. Perhaps it doesn’t make sense to you because you don’t understand it.

I think people can be taught to understand the new translation. See my signature.
 
Aidan Nichols, OP, in his book Looking at Liturgy, talks about the need for the language of the liturgy to be more formal. Ultimately, there needs to be some sense of mystery about the liturgy or we will lose sight of the sacred nature of it. It will become conversational, it will become familiar, and then we will not attempt to engage the mysteries contained therein. A priest once asked me (after overhearing a friend and me talking about going to Latin Mass) why Latin? Why go to Mass in a language you can’t understand? I asked him in reply–when you say Mass for the students here at the college on Sunday nights, how many of them understand what is being said in English? He responded that most of them don’t. When something is familiar to us, we begin to believe that we’ve got it all down, we understand it, we comprehend it. But recall the words of the Gospel of John–“the darkness could not comprehend (that is, surround) the light.” The darkness of our limited human intellect can never surround the light that is the mystery of God, and the liturgy should be an instrument to encourage us to more deeply seek out the mystery–not a way in which we could become proud enough to think that we don’t need to work that hard to get to God.
This is one of the best, concise explanations I have read on the language in the Holy Mass. Thank you!

For another, this is very good, too: "The Language Used in the Celebration of the Holy Mass"The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
 
In general I think the new one is a lot nicer than the old, though a handful of phrases like going from “worshiped” to “adored” in the Nicene Creed strike me as worse. I wish they would go all the way and say “and with thy spirit”… but that would be asking too much. 🙂
 
QUOTE=MarkThompson;7173563]It’s worth remembering, I think, that it’s not as though these things sound totally normal and conversational in the Latin. Frankly, a lot of liturgical Latin is quite stilted, even from a Latin point of view. “I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof” isn’t, you know, a Latin idiom that loses meaning in English – on it’s face, it’s just as puzzling in Latin as it is in the new translation.
Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo & sanabitur anima mea, translates to the words of the Centurion who asked Christ to heal his servant. Since most of us still read the Scriptures in English, niether the words nor the source of the words should be puzzling at all.

I
tend to disagree that the current translations are “bad” in the sense a lot of people claim (“Haw haw, even a first-year Latin student would know that ‘Et cum spiritu tuo’ doesn’t mean ‘And also with you’! LOL!”). It’s not that the writers of our current texts were bad at translating, it’s that they opted in many cases to rewrite rather than translate. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that approach; one could imagine, in theory, the Holy See prescribing that, within the general limits of the liturgy and with its own approval, every episcopal conference should rewrite the Latin text to make it meaningful and understandable in the local language. But that is not the approach that has been taken.
You are correct, Bugnini et al rewrote the Mass in many places. There is no doubt that the English translation “and also with you” is wrong. “Et cum spiritu tuo” is a greeting which can only be made by a Christian assembly **TO AN ORDAINED MAN **since the reference is to the spirit of holy ordination which is central in his celebrating the holy Eucharist/Mass aright in Christ’s name
 
Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo & sanabitur anima mea, translates to the words of the Centurion who asked Christ to heal his servant. Since most of us still read the Scriptures in English, niether the words nor the source of the words should be puzzling at all.
Of course that’s what it refers to, except that puer meus, “my boy,” has been changed to anima mea, so whereas the Centurion was seeking healing for someone else, we’re asking it for ourselves. (It always struck me as a little odd that the Mass would rewrite a Scriptural text in that way.) My point is that for the revised translation to make sense, you have to be familiar with the Scriptural passage, and you have to understand the statement metaphorically (since Christ is not coming to our houses) rather than directly (“receive You” in Communion). That’s why I said that “on it’s face” the statement is puzzling, since it requires background knowledge and a non-literal reading to understand.

The important point is that this is just as true in the (new) English as in the Latin, so if one is to complain about anything, it should not be “This is an obscure translation” but “This part of the Mass was written obscurely.”
You are correct, Bugnini et al rewrote the Mass in many places. There is no doubt that the English translation “and also with you” is wrong.
I didn’t mention Archbishop Bugnini at all, so I don’t know where you’re coming from, and he did not write the English texts at all. I was talking about the process of translating the editio typica of the Pauline Missal into English, not the process of developing the Pauline Missal in the first place.

And I’m afraid that it is not as simple as just to say that “and also with you” is a “wrong” translation. It’s not really a translation at all. It’s a rewriting, based on different principles about what the Mass should say and in what sort of language it should be expressed. So, for instance, we cannot simply criticize the Mass’s translation of “Mysterium fidei:” (“Let us proclaim the mystery of faith”) and complain that the translators were incompetent because the Latin does not contain any verb or connotation about proclaiming. They just decided that a longer statement with a verb would work better. Is the translation “wrong”? Well, it’s not quite a translation to begin with, so there’s not good answer. Likewise, “for all” isn’t a bad translation of “pro multis”; it’s not a translation at all. These weren’t bloopers; they were the result of people who had different ideas about what the Mass should say.

The problem is that this hermeneutic that the composers of the English texts employed – one of rewriting, usually to enhance plainness and understandability, rather than faithfully translating the original texts – is one Rome has rejected. (Of course, Abp. Bugnini had nothing to do with this.) For people who do not know very much about the issues, I guess it may convince them to say “The translations were erroneous, so now they’re being corrected.” But the truth is more complicated: that the method used in composing the texts was improper (or has subsequently been decided to be so), and now the texts are to be translated faithfully.
 
Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo & sanabitur anima mea, translates to the words of the Centurion who asked Christ to heal his servant. Since most of us still read the Scriptures in English, niether the words nor the source of the words should be puzzling at all.

I

You are correct, Bugnini et al rewrote the Mass in many places. There is no doubt that the English translation “and also with you” is wrong. “Et cum spiritu tuo” is a greeting which can only be made by a Christian assembly **TO AN ORDAINED MAN **since the reference is to the spirit of holy ordination which is central in his celebrating the holy Eucharist/Mass aright in Christ’s name
Since Bugnini didn’t write the English translation, perhaps it would be best to leave him out of the conversation.

The English translation of the Latin used, if I recall correctly, dynamic equivalency. No matter what form of translation is used, there can be problems with it. We can all acknowledge that the translation we have been using in English (for other English speaking countries as well as the US), has not been as accurate as it could have been, and stretched the term “translation” farther than it needed to be stretched. Going to a more literal form of translation is going to cause some hesitancy and a bit of “tripping over one’s tongue” for some period of time, until we get used to the new one. It will, however, be closer to the literal Latin than what we have had.
 
If I had a bone to pick anywhere, it would be the use of the word “consubstantial”, for the simple reasons that the vast majority of English speakers have a) no training in Latin and b) no training in philosophy, and c) when someone asks what it means, the answer is going to be pretty close to “one in being” with the Father.

In other words, we have taken a phrase that in itself is difficult for most people to wrap their minds around, and substituted a more difficult one. That doesn’t seem to be progress.

On the other hand, they didn’t ask my opinion. So “consubstantial” it will be.

For the most part, I simply don’t have a dog in the fight. I took enough Latin to know that the translation was a tad free of hand. Enough time has passed with the current translation that it is time to clean up the pieces and move closer to the Latin, as many other languages have done. For some reason - perhaps because in part there may be more English speakers than say, Russian or Vietnamese, we experienced more of the progressive elements at work when our translation was made. I don’t know what the ratio is between English speakers and say, Spanish speakers; and since English and Spanish languages both stem from Europe, but Spanish has seemed a closer translation, why we got hit and they didn’t. Perhaps because Spanish is closer to Latin than English is.

In any event, time has passed, progressives are no longer the leaders, and off we go.
 
Near as I can tell, it doesn’t matter whether or not we like or dislike it, Rome has spoken. Now its time to put it all together and act like Catholics and learn our parts (and chant).
 
Since the translators can’t even seem to render “Dominus Vobiscum” into English correctly (something a first year Latin student should be able to do) I have my serious doubts about it. But we’ll have to wait and see.
Dave -
Dominus Vobiscum = The Lord be with you
Et cum Spiritu Tuom = And with thy Spirit

Since we no longer use the 2nd person singular, they decided to use “your spirit”. “And with your spirit,” is supposed to teach an eternal reality, that we aren’t just a body, that we are are Spirit as well, and that what gives us life is the Spirit. That’s why Jesus told the Samaritan woman, “Those who worship the Father would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.”

I think it’s fair to ask that you not compare this latest Translation of the Latin Mass with a “Perfect Translation” of a “Perfect Latin Mass” (because such a thing doesn’t exist except in Heaven), but to compare this “New” Translation to the present Translation (of the Latin Mass) which most Americans have been using since 1973. I believe that, if you do that, you’ll find this Translation to be dramatically superior both as a Translation and as an instrument for worship and Catachesis (Teaching).

I believe you’ll find this Translation to be more Christ centered than the old Translation and to enable worship of the Lord in His House more readily than the old Translation. I believe you’ll find it does a better job of teaching the eternal truths of the Catholic Faith and of preparing the Catholic worshiper to receive those truths than the former Translation did.

When I was an Anglican, I lived with a Liturgy that taught the eternal truths of the Catholic Faith, while preparing those who worshiped the Lord to Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. I’ve worshiped with the Maronites who use an 1800 year old Arabic Liturgy that I can’t begin to understand, and yet I’ve felt impelled to the Altar for the Offertory and the Sacrifice, and I’ve felt the Pain of the Blessed Virgin during Good Friday Mary Song…

You don’t need to worship in “Street lingo” for your Spirit to pray in “Groans and sighs understood only by the Holy Spirit and God the Father”.

In Christ, Michael
 
I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.

This applies only to Catholics in the United States, by the way.

I mean come on. “And with your spirit”? That makes no sense in the context we say it in. “Lord I am not worthy that you be under my roof”? Taken from the Gospels, but makes no sense in the context that it’s said in during Mass. And no more “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”? That’s a pretty important thing to say and believe.

The Mass wasn’t too conversational. People should be able to talk to God easily and in language they understand. Now it just sounds too stiff, formal, and makes no sense.
What facts? You mean your PERSONAL OPINION? :rolleyes:
 
I’m sorry, but I’m just stating facts.

This applies only to Catholics in the United States, by the way.

I mean come on. “And with your spirit”? That makes no sense in the context we say it in.
It has been used in liturgies east and west from the earliest times.
Mass today in French, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Vietnamese, Croation etc has it translated correctly.
It’s comes from St Paul in the Bible where he asked that “the grace of the Lord be with your Spirit”
“Lord I am not worthy that you be under my roof”? Taken from the Gospels, but makes no sense in the context that it’s said in during Mass.
Our bodies are temples and we are not worthy for the the Lord to enter in, but we believe, we have faith, that our soul will be healed.
I find it great that the new translation restores so many scriptural references
And no more “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”? That’s a pretty important thing to say and believe.
The Latin says: we proclaim your death (Christ has died) and profess your ressurection (Christ has died) until you come again (Christ will come again).
It harkens back to our baptism and our call to proclaim Christ, rather than stating mere facts.
The Mass wasn’t too conversational. People should be able to talk to God easily and in language they understand. Now it just sounds too stiff, formal, and makes no sense.
Mass is the sacrfice of Calvary for the adoration of God and our sanctification. Just as a sacred place, with sacred furnishings and sacred art and sacred music etc is needed, so to is sacred language.

When Mass began to be prayed in Latin, it was a more raised Latin, not street Latin.
 
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