The Next Prophet or Spokeman of God

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In 12 years our church will be 2000 years old. Catholic records and other historical documents illustrate Apostolistic succession of our church starting with Peter. The old testament tells of those “other self proclaiming prophets” that rose up against Moses. As you may recall, things ended badly for them.

100 years ago, a profound miracle occurred in Fatima Portugal. Witnessed by more than 70,000. Nothing like it since Gospel times. Curious. Do you think it was real ?

TOm… You come across as a really decent fellow. Not trying to be rude or insulting. Salvation is the most serious of issues.
 
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TOmNossor said:
It is interesting that you are in this rarefied upper echelon where leaders speak behind closed doors AND yet you are unaware of the fact that the church censured the idea you claim is our secret belief.
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I’m not unaware of this at all. I know that the LDS Church claims to reject that belief. I’ve known that for decades. So I would ask you:

Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Lamb of God? Because if not, and if you believe in the BOM, then Catholics belong to the church of the devil.

According to Boyd K. Packer, the Church of the Lamb of God must contain all the saving ordinances of the gospel.

Please, I would like your answer. Don’t whitewash it. Give it to me straight, just like BKP said you should do. He said the answer would be hard to take, but you have to be honest and bold.
 
Hello ChiefT!

I do try to be decent, but I can be obnoxious too. I don’t think I will go too far in the obnoxious direction in my response here, but hope I can get you to think about what I as a LDS would say and how it might ring in the ears of a LDS as your words ring in Catholic ears.
chieft said:
In 12 years our church will be 2000 years old. Catholic records and other historical documents illustrate Apostolistic succession of our church starting with Peter.
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I think most LDS (especially the academically minded such as myself or the ones who followed popular books in the 50’s and 60’s) would well understand if I were to say that the church to which we belong entered its 7th “Thousand Year” period about 17 years ago. I do not think the author of the book series to which I refer lived till 2000, but he was quite popular back then. LDS believe that Adam received public revelation from God. Moses and Abraham too. Folks like Isaiah also. Then Peter (not to mention James and John and Paul). And that this PUBLIC revelation continues to come AND can continue to come through Jesus’s current prophet, Russell M. Nelson. The continuation of “public revelation” as opposed to its ceasing is IMO a very strong point in the favor of the CoJCoLDS.
chieft said:
The old testament tells of those “other self proclaiming prophets” that rose up against Moses. As you may recall, things ended badly for them.
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Yes I do recall (well again from reading, like the 50’s and 60’s I was also not around back then).

You however might recall another leader of God’s church who went astray. He fought against a small group of folks who were viewed by most of God’s people and by the local law as subversives. He even prophesied concerning them and his prophesy came true … but he didn’t recognize Jesus the Christ and after Christ’s resurrection and ascension God’s church leader was Peter, not Ciaphus. So you see just because Ciaphus had a claim to the throne of Moses that was far more historic than Peter’s (and even more historic than Christ’s) doesn’t mean that Ciaphus was right and Jesus and Peter were wrong.

And while you cautioning me concerning the fate of other claimed prophets, I might invite you think on the words of Gamaliel, “Ye men of Israel, take heed to yoursleves what ye intend to do as touching these men… And now I say unto you. Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

Cont…
 
chieft said:
100 years ago, a profound miracle occurred in Fatima Portugal. Witnessed by more than 70,000. Nothing like it since Gospel times. Curious. Do you think it was real ?
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If I was forced to adjudicate the validity of Fatima, I expect I would call it divine and REAL. I well remember as a LDS reading the book Eucharistic Miracles and determining that it was best for me to recognize God’s hand in those (before, after, and to this day despite my Catholic mother telling me these were “medieval superstitions”). I am also quite a fan of St. Thomas Aquinas’s “Eucharistic” miracle that occurred for him late in his life (I have referenced it here at Catholic Answers, multiple times I think).

I am a religious INCLUSIVIST. I am not a religious PLURALIST, because it does matter where you worship and I believe that most folks will come to recognize the inspiration from God to Joseph Smith in this life or in the next. Net-net God’s truths are better understood in the community of the LDS than outside the VISIBLE community of LDSs.* I am not a religious EXCLUSIVIST. I do not believe that only a LDS can experience miracles and that God’s miracles only occur for the purpose of pointing people to the CoJCoLDS as God’s church. God celebrates the faith of Catholic people and PRIVATE REVELATION is available to all God’s children.
  • I think there is truth to the statement that “there is no salvation outside the CoJCoLDS” as long as one recognizes that salvation comes in and through God’s church which is the CoJCoLDS not solely to those who are visibly members of the CoJCoLDS. And yes this is completely me taking the Vatican II understanding of “Extra Ecclesiam nulia salus” and applying it to the CoJCoLDS.
chieft said:
TOm… You come across as a really decent fellow. Not trying to be rude or insulting. Salvation is the most serious of issues.
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I am quite convinced intellectually and spiritually that Christ’s Church is not the Catholic Church, but I sure hope if I am wrong, I will either correct my error before I die OR be “invincibly ignorant” and saved just the same. I do not find it rude that you exhort me to be a Catholic. That is loving.

I find it somewhat rude and largely misinformed to present my church in ways that make it look ridiculous AND to claim that it is “crazy.”

I hope my response was not rude. I just want you to see that the Bible and ancient Christian history provide plenty of evidence that makes my understanding reasonable.

Charity, TOm
 
CourtingTex said:
With the passing of Thomas S. Monson as the 16th President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the next man in seniority becomes his successor. It will be announced soon with the funeral of President Monson taking place today in Salt Lake City.

His successor will be Russell M Nelson. The next President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is the next man in seniority after President Nelson, Dallin H. Oaks.

I pray for these brethren in light of the usual false nonsense currently spreading about the church on the internet and otherwise.
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It doesn’t matter who it is because he will continue to preach a false gospel and not believe in the Holy Trinity. In fact he will continue not to be a Christian.
 
Lemuel said:
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TOmNossor:
It is interesting that you are in this rarefied upper echelon where leaders speak behind closed doors AND yet you are unaware of the fact that the church censured the idea you claim is our secret belief.
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I’m not unaware of this at all. I know that the LDS Church claims to reject that belief. I’ve known that for decades. So I would ask you:

Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Lamb of God? Because if not, and if you believe in the BOM, then Catholics belong to the church of the devil.

According to Boyd K. Packer, the Church of the Lamb of God must contain all the saving ordinances of the gospel.

Please, I would like your answer. Don’t whitewash it. Give it to me straight, just like BKP said you should do. He said the answer would be hard to take, but you have to be honest and bold.
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Of course I do not believe that the Catholic Church is the “church of the Lamb of God” at least that is not the most accurate description. I can acknowledge truth in the idea that “The title church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organization of whatever name or nature – whether political, philosophical, education, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious – which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.” You should recognize the quote as this is how McConkie was CORRECTED by church leaders above him. That still neglects to capture what I think is try which is that the devil has a hand in my life/choices/church …
I do not believe Peterine authority was passed to the Bishop of Rome, but if I was alive in 210AD, I expect I would try to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I hope I would reject the Montanists and I would believe the authorities of the Catholic Church when they claimed (explicitly for the first time around the beginning of the 3rd century) they COULD NOT RECEIVE REVELATION for God’s Church. The “lesser organization” the Paster of Hermas spoke of was nonetheless, God’s organization and I would do well to follow it.
In a manner of speaking, all error sources with Satan. There has been church of the devil acts in my church and yours. That being said LDS do not claim, Linus, Cletus, or Clement were the first Satanic popes. There have been bad Popes, but most often (by a long way most often) the Catholic Pope is a good man trying o follow God.
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i hardly think that is white washing. Your mileage may vary.
In my experience Catholics on Catholic Answers say horrible things about LDS (even dead President Monson less than 48 hours after he passed). I habe not seen such things said by LDS concerning Catholics here or on LDS boards.
Identifying the Catholic Church as “the church of the devil” has been rejected and was rejected by the highest leaders of the CoJCoLDS. If believing that we secretly claim this “behind closed doors” is important to you (or makes you feel better about what is said openly about LDS on this board), I don’t know what else I can do to disuade you. But I hope others will recognize this is not a LDS teaching.
Charity, TOm
 
These men are only “prophets” to Mormons. Their alleged titles mean nothing to the rest of us. My prayer for them is the same prayer I pray for all Mormons. That they and the rest of you learn the truth about your false religion and leave it for the Truth which is only found in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
 
Kathleen18 said:
THE MORMON CHURCH mostly uses the KJV version of the bible. THE MORMON CHURCH also has The BOOK of LATTER-DAY SAINTS. The former being something I do not believe is accurate.
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You mean the Book of Mormon not the Book of Latter-Day Saints.
 
Lemuel said:
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AngelaMarie:
The Mormons are free to have their Mormon prophet to lead the Mormon people. It doesn’t have anything to do with the rest of us.
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The Mormons would disagree with you. They believe that their prophet is God’s prophet for the entire world.
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Sadly, yes, that is what they believe. And they are wrong which they will also find out one day.
 
So do you agree that there are only two churches? And if so, and the Catholic Church is not the church of the Lamb of God, what does that make it?

Do you believe that the Mormon Church is the Church of the Lamb of God?

And, can I belong to the Church of the Lamb of God if I’m not Mormon?
 
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Katheleen18, “LDS” (Latter-Day Saints) is what Mormons prefer to be called. The Book of Mormon is the book written/translated (depending on who and what you believe) by Joseph Smith. Portions of the KJV Bible were lifted by Smith and reworded with some of the books of the KJV Bible being given new names to make the BOM seem like “another testament of Jesus Christ” when it isn’t.

Let me make it perfectly clear that I have always said that Mormons use the JST version of the KJV BIble. Mormons have claimed they don’t, that they only use the same KJV Bible Protestants use and that they use the BOM to explain the Bible to them. If Mormons used the same KJV Bible Protestants use, they wouldn’t need the BOM to explain it to them since the BIble explains and supports itself.
 
There are footnote references in the KJV to the JST, so to say that they don’t use it would be incorrect. Joseph Smith–Matthew is considered canon.
 
Lemuel said:
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AngelaMarie:
They are free to have their Mormon prophet to lead the Mormon people in their Mormon beliefs.
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One of which is that Catholics worship Satan and their professors teach lies.
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Yep. I was told that very thing by a Mormon who didn’t like hearing the truth about his church, its teachings and its leaders. Instead of reacting the way he expected me to (lamblasting him the way he’d done me), I said a quick prayer to Jesus and kept my cool.
 
I withdrew my post because I was mistaken, somewhat. Is there anything else you would like to correct me on?
 
TOmNossor said:
In my experience Catholics on Catholic Answers say horrible things about LDS (even dead President Monson less than 48 hours after he passed). I habe not seen such things said by LDS concerning Catholics here or on LDS boards.
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Well, I’m not a Catholic, but I can tell you how I felt about him. I was a staunch member during most of his presidency and I thought of him as one of the greatest examples of Christianity that I knew. So, on one hand, I think he’s a really good man, but on the other hand, and I have to be honest, I am concerned that he knew the fraud that he was propagating and he did it anyway. But I’m willing to let God sort that out. Since I have left the Mormon church and know with all my heart for it to be a giant lie, I have a hard time saying that I miss him, because I don’t. He is in God’s hands now and I believe that God even loves non-Christians. Rest his soul.

As far as Mormons being Christian, I have not participated in that argument here. I don’t really care what they call themselves. All I know is that if Mormonism was the symbol of Christianity, I would certainly choose atheism.
 
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lilypadrees said:
If Mormons used the same KJV Bible Protestants use, they wouldn’t need the BOM to explain it to them since the BIble explains and supports itself.
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This is not a Catholic position on the Bible. Are you a former Protestant?
Charity, TOm
 
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