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chieft
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This discussion can go on endlessly. Hope the Lord treats you with mercy.
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TOmNossor
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Lemuel,
I looked and it was earlier in this thread where I said what I need to say in response to this.
I am not sure if you are aware of the Catholic teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. This was broadly believed before Vatican II to mean that those who were not visibly part of the Catholic Church went to hell. However, “broadly believed” does not account for all the teachings that have existed associated with “Baptism of Blood” and “Baptism of Desire” and ….
Vatican II DEVELOPED (the Catholic approved term) the idea that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. As explained this means that salvation for all who are saved is in and through the Catholic Church. This salvation may extend to Protestants and perhaps even Mormons, but it is though their connection to God’s Catholic Church that salvation is available even if that connection is not obvious.
So earlier in the thread to Chieft, I said this:
I now repeat it to you. There are Catholics who are members of the Church of the Lamb of God because they follow the Savior, Jesus Christ who is the Lamb of God. These Catholic fail to realize the Christ’s prophet on earth is Russell M. Nelson. These Catholics believe things about Pope Francis that are not accurate, but that does not mean they are in “the church of the devil.”
I am fine with there being two churches only. The CoJCoLDS together with all those who are connected visibly and invisibly to her AND the church of the devil. But I along with all LDS I know reject the idea that the Catholic Church or any non-LDS church in particular is the church of the devil.
Charity, TOm
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Lemuel
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You don’t believe your own scriptures. Fine. I don’t believe them either.
And I have known Russel M. Nelson for decades and know him to be a leader of a false church. He’s not my prophet. He’s just another Mormon fraud.
And I have known Russel M. Nelson for decades and know him to be a leader of a false church. He’s not my prophet. He’s just another Mormon fraud.
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TOmNossor
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It would seem to me that the “really good man” you speak of either BELIEVED what you call a fraud or he was somehow an atheist and still spent and average of 50-100 hours per week serving widows and other church members for 60+ years.TOmNossor:
Well, I’m not a Catholic, but I can tell you how I felt about him. I was a staunch member during most of his presidency and I thought of him as one of the greatest examples of Christianity that I knew. So, on one hand, I think he’s a really good man, but on the other hand, and I have to be honest, I am concerned that he knew the fraud that he was propagating and he did it anyway.
There is a Atlantic article that basically claims that Mormons are great people despite their crazy theology. The Atlantic published the response from a LDS that said that it is because of our commitment to the teachings of the CoJCoLDS that so frequently folks like the previous author seen how great the LDS people are.
I think it unlikely that President Monson or your average LDS general authority has spent more time reading and thinking about anti-Mormon arguments than I have. I serve in my local ward and pay tithing and attend functions 3-6 hours per week. Add to this that I am committed to Christ and if I didn’t believe the CoJCoLDS was God’s church, I would be Catholic again. I think it unlikely that any general authority is secretly a disbeliever and astronomically unlikely that this is prevalent position among general authorities.
It seems to me that exMormons often think that the information they have learned can only be understood to mean the CoJCoLDS is a giant fraud. This is a common position among exCatholics too (I had a former nun offer to show this to me, I was a LDS, and my Catholic friend, but I knew she didn’t know as much about Catholicism as my then Catholic friend did).
This is a remarkable position. I am sorry for whatever so alienated you to the CoJCoLDS. For me, I am a theist first. There simply must be a God or I could not have experienced what I have and observed what I have. I am a Christian second. This God that must be seems to love me and seems to want me to return to Him and it is so obvious I need a Christ for that. I am a LDS third. The God of the Bible, the Christ of Palestine, the history of God’s people from 33AD to 1830 and from 1830 to today, make it clear (to me) that the CoJCoLDS is Christ’s church. I know all three of these things intellectual and spiritually and as best is possible could know with out spiritual witness or without intellectual understanding.
All that being said, I will sincerely pray that you become a committed and faithful Catholic. I honestly believe that Catholicism makes the 2nd most sense of the data I mention.
Charity, TOm
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TOmNossor
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No, I just understand them differently than you do.
I suggest that your CERTAINTY it is all a fraud is a product of your rigidity.
Such rigidity has created exCatholics and Sedavacantists.
“May we all become disillusioned, because who would want to be illusioned.”
Charity, TOm
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thistle
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Mormons are NOT Christians.
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lilypadrees
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With all due respect, Mormons fail to realize that the only ones for whom Russell M. Nelson is a “prophet” are Mormons. Christians do not follow your Mormon leaders. We follow and obey Jesus the Christ.
As for there being no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, you condemn yourselves (Mormons) and all who are not Catholic by believing this. Yes, there was a time when this was taught. I don’t know if it still is. I do know that since Jesus is the salvation of every Christian, regardless of the church they attend, He is the salvation of non-Catholics as well.
Every Christian church has some of His Truth in it. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. Sadly, I cannot say the same of your church because you depend on men you believe are prophets/God’s alleged spokesmen to tell you what to do whereas Catholics and all Christians place our faith and trust in God and in His Word, Jesus, and His inspired written Word, the Holy Bible. We don’t need other books to explain the Bible to us. The Bible explains and supports itself. Mormons need the BOM, the D&C and the PoGP to explain the Bible to you.
As for there being no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, you condemn yourselves (Mormons) and all who are not Catholic by believing this. Yes, there was a time when this was taught. I don’t know if it still is. I do know that since Jesus is the salvation of every Christian, regardless of the church they attend, He is the salvation of non-Catholics as well.
Every Christian church has some of His Truth in it. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. Sadly, I cannot say the same of your church because you depend on men you believe are prophets/God’s alleged spokesmen to tell you what to do whereas Catholics and all Christians place our faith and trust in God and in His Word, Jesus, and His inspired written Word, the Holy Bible. We don’t need other books to explain the Bible to us. The Bible explains and supports itself. Mormons need the BOM, the D&C and the PoGP to explain the Bible to you.
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lilypadrees
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Sadly, they won’t be Christians until the veil is removed from their eyes and they see the darkness and deception their church has kept them in for so many years.Lemuel:
Mormons are NOT Christians.
When they turn to the REAL Jesus Christ instead of their church’s version of Jesus, they will be on their way to becoming Christians.
I pray that day comes soon.
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lilypadrees
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No, TOm, I’m not a former Protestant. I am a born and bred Catholic who had a Catholic father and a Protestant mother. I went to Catholic and Protestant churches in my youth. So I know the teachings of both. My mother converted from Protestantism in her 80s and is now Catholic.lilypadrees:
This is not a Catholic position on the Bible. Are you a former Protestant?
Charity, TOm
The Holy Bible wouldn’t be the inspired, written Word of God (Jesus being the Word made flesh) if it didn’t support itself. God is the Author. And He doesn’t lie. His Truth is found in every word, every line, every page of His Word (Jesus and the written Word).
Sadly, Mormons need another book, the BOM to understand the Bible because they constantly misinterpret the Bible. God is not the author of confusion. Satan is. And it is Satan who prevents Mormons from understanding Sacred Scripture.
Given that Satan has you all so confused, how is it that you and your fellow Mormons believe Monson’s replacement is God’s newest “prophet” and spokesman when none of you including your “prophet” are able to properly discern and understand the Scriptures?
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vsedriver
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Only the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. All other texts are not sacred scripture.
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vsedriver
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"more likely’? how could it be God’s Church when it can’t trace back to the Apostles to Jesus? Did you have a preconceived idea of what ‘God’s Church’ would be like and that the Mormon church just fit the bill?
I just find it hard to see a church that has no connection to the past be considered as the church founded by Jesus Christ. It doesn’t fit scripture, doesn’t fit history and doesn’t fit with reason.
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Lemuel
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I’m only in RCIA and don’t claim to understand a lot about the Catholic faith yet, but I do know that this is completely contrary to what our priest taught us in RCIA.
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vsedriver
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of what need is there of prophets when we have Jesus? We have the fullness of Jesus’s teaching already. All of God’s revelation is contained in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. We don’t need public prophets to guide the Church because we have the magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit.
St. Peter never claimed the seat of Moses. But Jesus did give him the keys to the kingdom and the authority to bind and loose. Peter’s role is one of the chief steward for the absent king. A role that is passed down to successors.
also if public revelation continued after the death of the last Apostle, why was there no prophets for 1800 years? if God abandoned his Church for nearly 18 centuries then there is no guarantee he won’t do it again. In which case, there is no reason to believe in Christianity at all.
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vsedriver
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except that the Catholic Church did exist when this concept was taught and the Morm0n church didn’t. Hard to say you must be saved through a church that didn’t even exist when this dogma was formulated.
I do think you are sincere in your search for the One True Church of Jesus Christ. I’m just not getting why it is so hard to refuse to see that it is the Catholic Church? Even the things you love about the Mormon Church are things lifted from the Catholic Church.
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TOmNossor
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First, I am well aware that non LDS do not believe that Russell M. Nelson is a prophet.
Second, a LDS might say, “With all due respect, Catholics fail to realize that the only ones for whom Pope Francis is the ‘vicar of Christ’ are Catholics. Christians (a LDS would say non-Catholic Christians as LDS do not try to deny the term Christian to those in profound error concern the person of Christ and the Holy Trinity, but many Protestants are more than happy to claim Catholics are not Christians) do not follow your Catholic leaders. We follow and obey Jesus the Christ.”
Alternatively, I would suggest with respect and desire to communicate truth a LDS would say, “You of course recognize that non-Catholics do not believe that Pope Francis is Christ’s Vicar on earth. Instead we recognize President Nelson as Christ’s Prophet and follow Christ through God’s teachings received in scripture and by revelation.”
Finally, I do not think what you said was disrespectful, just a little “tone deaf.”
A few things here too.
First, I didn’t say that I as a LDS believe there is “no salvations outside the Catholic Church.” I said this is Catholic teaching.
Second, I will tell you your churches position and you are welcome to research, reject, or believe me. You said “there was a time when this was taught.” Well, this is a teaching concerning faith and morals that Catholics believe is part of the deposit of faith. That being said Vatican II DEVELOPED (the Catholic word, I would be more than willing to say CHANGED, but Catholics say DEVELOPED) this teaching. It has come to mean that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but this is because salvation is in in through the merits of Christ received by Christ’s church. There are those not visibly united to the Catholic Church who nonetheless partake of salvation within/through the Catholic Church. Thus, there is and always has been “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.”
Finally, I regularly correct incorrect LDS understanding of our teachings some coming from you. I welcome any correction from you (after your research) or from other Catholics, but I am pretty sure I have the post Vatican II understanding down.
Cont…
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TOmNossor
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Also, in this post:
The Next Prophet or Spokeman of God Non-Catholic Religions
Here I will just reiterate that LDS do not follow the prophet to the exclusion of Christ. LDS follow the prophet and his teachings just as Catholics and all Christians follow St. Peter and his teachings.
In case you want to go down a rabbit hole, I can tell you also that unlike Catholics, LDS do not pray to or worship Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, or St. Peter. And Catholics do pray to and worship St. Peter so you are the ones who practice idolatry. Of course, I am well versed in the Catholic teachings concerning petitionary prayer AND dulia, hyperdulia, and latria worship. But it is the Catholic Church that comes closest to idolatry in these areas not the CoJCoLDS despite what you wish was the case.
On to your NON-CATHOLIC UNDERSTANDING of the Bible including a link so you do not need to take my words for it.
Charity, TOm
I offer a tiny bit of the ancient (long before Vatican II) seeds that lead to this DEVELOPMENT/CHANGE. So I am not unware that Vatican II did not scrap the ancient teaching in favor of new, unique, never before considered teachings.
I will get to your NON-CATHOLIC UNDERSTANDING of the Bible shortly.Every Christian church has some of His Truth in it. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. Sadly, I cannot say the same of your church because you depend on men you believe are prophets/God’s alleged spokesmen to tell you what to do whereas Catholics and all Christians place our faith and trust in God and in His Word, Jesus, and His inspired written Word, the Holy Bible. We don’t need other books to explain the Bible to us. The Bible explains and supports itself. Mormons need the BOM, the D&C and the PoGP to explain the Bible to you.
Here I will just reiterate that LDS do not follow the prophet to the exclusion of Christ. LDS follow the prophet and his teachings just as Catholics and all Christians follow St. Peter and his teachings.
In case you want to go down a rabbit hole, I can tell you also that unlike Catholics, LDS do not pray to or worship Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, or St. Peter. And Catholics do pray to and worship St. Peter so you are the ones who practice idolatry. Of course, I am well versed in the Catholic teachings concerning petitionary prayer AND dulia, hyperdulia, and latria worship. But it is the Catholic Church that comes closest to idolatry in these areas not the CoJCoLDS despite what you wish was the case.
On to your NON-CATHOLIC UNDERSTANDING of the Bible including a link so you do not need to take my words for it.
Charity, TOm
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TOmNossor
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Lily, you do not understand the Catholic position on the Holy Bible. LDS other then me to my knowledge have never commented on this area, but I adopt the Catholic position as opposed to the Protestant position that you have elucidated.TOmNossor:
The Holy Bible wouldn’t be the inspired, written Word of God (Jesus being the Word made flesh) if it didn’t support itself. God is the Author. And He doesn’t lie. His Truth is found in every word, every line, every page of His Word (Jesus and the written Word).lilypadrees:
This is not a Catholic position on the Bible. Are you a former Protestant?
Charity, TOm
The Catholic position (and my position) is that the Bible does not “explain and support itself.” This is not a defect in the Bible. This is God’s will. The position you espouse is that the Bible is “formally sufficient.” This is the position of many Sola Scriptura Protestants. The informed Catholic position and the position that I embrace is that the Bible is not “formally sufficient” but is “materially sufficient.” The Bible does not interpret itself. The Bible is inspired and it contains the gospel of salvation completely. The Catholic Church teaches that sacred tradition and the authority of the Catholic Church are necessary to interpret and explain the Bible. It is my position that the authority of the CoJCoLDS is necessary to interpret and explain the Bible. Your position is the Protestant position.
Here is a wonderful blog with brilliant Catholic writers (at least one and maybe all former Protestants) explaining this so you do not need to take my word for it.
Charity, TOm
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TOmNossor
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I reject your belief that LDS do not understand scripture better than Catholics. I don’t think you understand Catholic teachings concerning “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” nor concerning the sufficiency of the Bible. I also do not think you or the Magisterium of the Catholic Church understands scripture better than LDS do. I also think that the Bible alone folks demonstrate that scripture ALONE does not create uniformity of belief. I also think that Pope Francis and the Dubia Cardinals are fine examples of confusion.
All that being bluntly said, I have observed change in my understanding of the gospel during my maturation as a Catholic, when I left the Catholic Church and became a LDS, and during my continued learning and growth as a LDS. Satan is the author of confusion and I only hope those changes are me moving from Satan’s confusion towards God’s truth. I hope all Catholics are on this journey too.
Charity, TOm
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vsedriver
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the Bible does not explain and support itself. If it did there wouldn’t be any disagreements on interpretation. The bible needs and always has had an authoritative interpreter, which is the Church founded by Jesus Christ also known as the Catholic Church.
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Fauken
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Well yes, there is no salvation outside of the Church. Perhaps you may have heard of it by its name in Latin: extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Your priest may have taught it correctly, but never gave the proper name of this teaching.
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