The 'Normal Christian Birth'

[dalcent]

(Sorry to borrow a book title I read years ago by a certain David Pawson)

We all know fundamentalist/evangelical Christians insist on a ‘born-again’ penitent’s prayer when a convert feels conviction and wants to be regenerated. Later on he is baptised as an ordinance.

Now, I understand the Catholic doctrine is: baptism AND profession of faith to wash away their sins.

Now I was watching 3ABN (Adventists) on cable and the preacher was hammering home the Gospel of salvation and doing it well I must say. At the end people were getting ‘born-again’ (yes, its our Catholic term) by getting in the tank and confessing the risen Lord Jesus there and then.

And I was thinking what on earth are we Catholics doing. Why do we take so long. Why give the devil months to get in and steal the seed. Where is the biblical model for telling peope to start an RCIA course in the Fall and baptising/confirming them next Easter.

In Acts people were always baptised there and then: on the day God made their hearts burn. I completely disagree with how the Catholics are bringing people into the Faith. It wrong: it’s no more biblical than the ‘evangelical model.’

 

[dumspirospero]

It appears to me you have your mind made up…you just keep posting asinine statements out there trying to justify your own warped opinion…if you want to leave The Truth for a just a bunch of hogwash…then you are in my prayers…I just have one request, just quit trolling these forums and taking up space were once there were very deep intellectual and theological discussions…this stuff is just outlandish ramblings at best.

 

[The_Augustinian]

The Church has a long history of preparation for conversion. Catechumens had been trained in the catacombs for centuries. Baptism is important; we can’t simply baptize someone on the spot if they don’t understand the doctrines of the Church.

Let me ask you, how many of those people baptized “on the spot” on television continue to live out their faith through multiple generations? I’ve heard that many of the Pentecostal converts in South America have a hard time raising their children in that faith, and thus the sects there are having a hard time. That is because salvation starts at baptism, and there’s a long way to go.

 

[dalcent]

It appears to me you have your mind made up…you just keep posting asinine statements out there trying to justify your own warped opinion…if you want to leave The Truth for a just a bunch of hogwash…then you are in my prayers…I just have one request, just quit trolling these forums and taking up space were once there were very deep intellectual and theological discussions…this stuff is just outlandish ramblings at best.

All my academic work has been well received critically at both Pentecostal Bible college (top student in Europe’s largest college) and as a Catholic at Master’s level at which I excelled. To be blunt the only people who have have had any major issues with me being ‘confused’ in my thinking have been inadequates around the 27-year old mark who live with their mum.

Nice outfit, but no I don’t want to buy an icecream thanks.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

You know he/she has a point. In the Scripture it does say that people were baptized right away when they heard and believed the gospel message. So why does the CC require what the OP stated above. If Jesus did not require it why does the CC? Where did this start or come from?

 

[dalcent]

Hi,

You know he/she has a point. In the Scripture it does say that people were baptized right away when they heard and believed the gospel message. So why does the CC require what the OP stated above. If Jesus did not require it why does the CC? Where did this start or come from?

Of course I have a point. That’s why they’re rattled.

THE BIBLICAL MODEL WAS BAPTISM ON THE FIRST DAY WITHOUT EXCEPTION. THERE IS SIMPLY NO EXCUSE FOR SAYING OTHERWISE, WHETHER YOU BE CATHOLIC OR EVANGELICAL.

Call me as “***” -like [check dictionary meaning of asinine] as you please dumspirospero, accuse me of washing hogs from here to kingdom come, the Bible hurts pal when you’re in denial. This isn’t some baptist ‘exegetical gymnastics’ this is just you denying the Sacred Scripture and being rude with it.

 

[CRW]

(Sorry to borrow a book title I read years ago by a certain David Pawson)

We all know fundamentalist/evangelical Christians insist on a ‘born-again’ penitent’s prayer when a convert feels conviction and wants to be regenerated. Later on he is baptised as an ordinance.

Now, I understand the Catholic doctrine is: baptism AND profession of faith to wash away their sins.

Now I was watching 3ABN (Adventists) on cable and the preacher was hammering home the Gospel of salvation and doing it well I must say. At the end people were getting ‘born-again’ (yes, its our Catholic term) by getting in the tank and confessing the risen Lord Jesus there and then.

And I was thinking what on earth are we Catholics doing. Why do we take so long. Why give the devil months to get in and steal the seed. Where is the biblical model for telling peope to start an RCIA course in the Fall and baptising/confirming them next Easter.

In Acts people were always baptised there and then: on the day God made their hearts burn. I completely disagree with how the Catholics are bringing people into the Faith. It wrong: it’s no more biblical than the ‘evangelical model.’

I always thought that if our Christian Brothers really believed that once saved, always save, the bile would be one page or one sentence: believe in me and go straight to heaven. The rest of the Bible would be just paper fillers, no merit, no truth, no tradition, and no need of the Church. Simply meet once a week, have a altar call (without an altar, and say I am born again; I am saved). We renew our baptism every time we bless ourselves when we enter the church. We confirm our beliefs each Sunday with the Creed. We renew our bodies when we receive our Lord. Our Catholic faith, our Church is the living Body of Christ.

 

[Katie1723]

Sounds to me like you have a lot of time on your hands. I just LOVE people like you who “speechify”. By any chance are you in the soapbox building business?
Kathy

 

[edward_george]

I submit to you Matthew Chapter 7, near the end of the chapter:

24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. 28 And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine. 29 For he was teaching them as one having power, and not as the scribes and Pharisees.

The reason the RCIA process is as long as it is has a lot to do with the fact that we are trying to build up that foundation for the faith of the catechumens. If they did not receive a sure foundation, then Satan would have an easier time sweeping them away, even after their baptism.

-ACEGC

 

[dalcent]

Sounds to me like you have a lot of time on your hands. I just LOVE people like you who “speechify”. Kathy

You’re the one who’s written 4,300+ posts since 2005. I’ve written 50 ish since 2004.

If you mean ‘a lot of time on [my] hands’ because I’ve had 5 children since 2000, yeah we don’t watch much television. Sorry, if you’re struggling with my vocabulary but the best place to learn English is from the source.

I’D REALLY APPRECIATE ARGUMENTS FROM SCRIPTURE ADVOCATING WAITING 6-9 MONTHS FOR BAPTISM. oooOOOhh THE SUSPENSE!!

 

[Katie1723]

You’re the one who’s written 4,300+ posts since 2005. I’ve written 50 ish since 2004.

If you mean ‘a lot of time on [my] hands’ because I’ve had 5 children since 2000, yeah we don’t watch much television. Sorry, if you’re struggling with my vocabulary but the best place to learn English is from the source.

I’D REALLY APPRECIATE ARGUMENTS FROM SCRIPTURE ADVOCATING WAITING 6-9 MONTHS FOR BAPTISM. oooOOOhh THE SUSPENSE!!

I am not struggling with your vocabulary at all. I rather enjoy verbal bantering with someone who knows the meaning of multi syllable words. It’s rather refreshing after being married to someone who’s sole focus in life was where the Pittsburgh Steelers were in the standings.
Kathy

 

[Eden]

I’D REALLY APPRECIATE ARGUMENTS FROM SCRIPTURE ADVOCATING WAITING 6-9 MONTHS FOR BAPTISM. oooOOOhh THE SUSPENSE!!

The Wikipedia article on the subject “Catechumen” is a useful and neutral starting point:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechumen

“As the acceptance of Christianity involved belief in a body of doctrine and the observance of the Divine law (“teach, make disciples, scholars of them”; “teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you”, Matthew 28:20 [see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commission”]Great Commission ]), it is clear that some sort of preliminary instruction must have been given to the converts.” See also Council of Jerusalem. Justin Martyr, in his First Apology, cites instruction as occurring prior to baptism:

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.

 

[dalcent]

I am not struggling with your vocabulary at all. I rather enjoy verbal bantering with someone who knows the meaning of multi syllable words. It’s rather refreshing after being married to someone who’s sole focus in life was where the Pittsburgh Steelers were in the standings.
Kathy

My apologies; I thought you were being sarcastic.

 

[Eden]

I’D REALLY APPRECIATE ARGUMENTS FROM SCRIPTURE ADVOCATING WAITING 6-9 MONTHS FOR BAPTISM. oooOOOhh THE SUSPENSE!!

This is such an odd statement and restriction on our responses, especially given the fact that you claimed to have come to the Church through Patristic writings.

Also from the Wikipedia entry:

Further, from the second century it appears that baptisms were held only at certain times of year, indicating that periods of instruction were the rule rather than the exception.

 

[Sabda]

It sounds to me like your still struggling with Sola Scriptura. Keep in mind the Church has not just Scripture but Tradition also. You need to get out of that Sola Scriptura mindset! Not everything is specifically stated in Scripture. If your going to take this route then you may as well throw out the Trinity too because it’s not specifically stated in Scripture either!

You can not teach a child everything in a day. It takes time to teach them. St Justin the Martyr stated that those who except the teachings of the Church are brought into the Church. Well, how are you supposed to know and understand the teachings of the Church without some sort of education? Especially, if your supposed to have a certain amount of knowledge BEFORE coming into the Church?

 

[Veritas41]

(Sorry to borrow a book title I read years ago by a certain David Pawson)

We all know fundamentalist/evangelical Christians insist on a ‘born-again’ penitent’s prayer when a convert feels conviction and wants to be regenerated. Later on he is baptised as an ordinance.

Now, I understand the Catholic doctrine is: baptism AND profession of faith to wash away their sins.

Now I was watching 3ABN (Adventists) on cable and the preacher was hammering home the Gospel of salvation and doing it well I must say. At the end people were getting ‘born-again’ (yes, its our Catholic term) by getting in the tank and confessing the risen Lord Jesus there and then.

And I was thinking what on earth are we Catholics doing. Why do we take so long. Why give the devil months to get in and steal the seed. Where is the biblical model for telling peope to start an RCIA course in the Fall and baptising/confirming them next Easter.

In Acts people were always baptised there and then: on the day God made their hearts burn. I completely disagree with how the Catholics are bringing people into the Faith. It wrong: it’s no more biblical than the ‘evangelical model.’

In the early Church there was a 3 year catechumenate before baptism, so the 8 months or so we have today is much shorter. (People have told me that before the resurrection of RCIA, you could become Catholic in a matter of weeks through private instruction.) Why so long ? My guess is the Church wants to make sure people have a grasp of the faith they’re embracing. Many evangelical groups rely heavily on emotion, and someone all ecstatic one day might not be so enthused about their faith a few months later. And just seeing the struggles many cradle Catholics have with various Church teachings, I would say it’s wise. People need time to reflect and understand and sort things out. Like Jesus said, we should count the cost before following Him.

 

[seremina]

**I have a point to make that may sound goony, but it makes sense.

If getting baptised was such a quick and non-consequential affair, then it becomes a drug rather than a command from our Lord. How is it a drug? Look at the emotional high it causes. A month or sooner later, the emotional high is gone. What do you do? Do you switch churches and get another baptism? Do you use your own tub to “recreate” the high?

People were prepared for baptism even when Jesus was living. Take John the Baptist for example. He preached for hours to teach them. This was before book instruction became a reality. Nearly everyone back then was illiterate. John told people to “make ready the ways of the Lord”. [paraphrased] Meaning… prepare yourself to follow Him and obey Him. That takes time. Its not just a “click”.

You can make this point for marriage as well. Unless you have a long courtship, long engagement, and full preparation, the wedding will mean nothing. Marriage is more than just saying “I want to live with this guy and have kids. Give me the quick approval and we’ll be out of your hair”. God established marriage and He’s part of every wedding. Would you honestly try pulling the wool over God’s eyes with a Las Vegas wedding and then later turn your back on the paperwork you signed? What becomes of the spouse you’re turning your back on? It shows a total carelessness and lack of concern and lack of decency.

Everything, even good things, take time.
**

 

[puzzleannie]

since this is not what OP and title promised, a rational discussion of Christian initiation, but a vitriolic exchange of personal attacks, I will just save my contribution for a less toxic thread, preferably one where actual Christians are participants.

 

[dalcent]

I have a point to make that may sound goony, but it makes sense.

If getting baptised was such a quick and non-consequential affair, then it becomes a drug rather than a command from our Lord. How is it a drug? Look at the emotional high it causes. A month or sooner later, the emotional high is gone. What do you do? Do you switch churches and get another baptism? Do you use your own tub to “recreate” the high?

Hello seremina,
The problem with mocking prompt baptism as ‘non-consequential’ and ‘a drug’ and disdaining a supposed ‘emotional high’ is that this was how it was done in the Acts of the Apostles!:
The First Converts
Acts 2:37-42: Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
**And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. **
**For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” **
**And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” **
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

I don’t know of any such emotional high. Why accuse someone who follows the biblical model of prompt baptism of thrill-seeking and impying they’ll be baptised again everytime they need a boost.

**

Take John the Baptist for example. He preached for hours to teach them…

**
‘Hours’ not 9 months?

**

You can make this point for marriage as well.

**
Actually I don’t think you can. You see comparing baptism with marriage is merely your analogy. Analogies are rarely exact and I don’t think this one is logical or relevant. I might as well compare an evangelist planting the acorn of faith and saying that 800-years of growth needs to takes place…
**

Unless you have a long courtship, long engagement, and full preparation, the wedding will mean nothing. Marriage is more than just saying “I want to live with this guy and have kids. Give me the quick approval and we’ll be out of your hair”. God established marriage and He’s part of every wedding

. Would you honestly try pulling the wool over God’s eyes with a Las Vegas wedding and then later turn your back on the paperwork you signed?..**

God also established baptism and it’s a different sacrament from matrimony. This is fairly condemnatory of the bibical model which was invariably baptism on the first day. Are you saying the 3000 people who received Christ in the waters of baptism [Acts 2:42] had a “Las Vegas baptism” pulling the wool over God’s eyes. As you explicate your analogy condemning the ‘quick baptisms’ in Sacred Scripture you must see you are being offensive about the 1st-century apostolic model - even if the later changes from the Acts narrative are authentic developments.

I understand that in subsequent decades and centuries a long period developed for catechumens. I understand how that might be helpful in some respects. However, what possible advantage is there for a person to remain in mortal sin and unregenerate for 9 unnecessary months (or so) just to be sure he wants God to save him or to get a bit more knowledgable about the Faith?

 

[seremina]

You missed my point entirely. My point was…baptism requires preparation, just like marriage requires preparation.

We require a longer time to prepare for baptism because we no longer use our memories as our notes. Back in John the Baptizer’s and Jesus’ time, people did. So all it took was hours to learn and prepare.

I was not mocking prompt baptism. I’m just saying that without proper preparation and understanding of the contract you’re making with God, its foolish to get baptised. I’ve seen many Protestants repeatedly get baptised at their Protestant churches, just by changing to a different church.

The ONLY kind of baptism permitted to a Catholic that is any quicker than this, is an emergency baptism. You use this when a Catholic is near death but didn’t have a chance to be baptised yet. If they die, it counts. If they survived, they go through the process of preparation for a proper baptism once they’ve recovered.

I see nothing unfair here. It makes a GREAT deal of sense!