The not so virgin Mary

[Stouts989]

catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp

I read through the article listed above written to explain way reform theology teaches that Mary was no longer a virgin after she had Jesus and bore other children along with the Catholic argument on why Mary remained a virgin.

What the article fails to mention is Matthew 1:24-25. This is (along with the verses mentioned in the article) why reform theology teaches that Mary didn’t remain as a virgin once Jesus was born.

Matthew 1:24-25 (with emphasis).

[NASB]
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 but **kept her a virgin until **she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

[KJV]
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[NIV]
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25**But he had no union with her until **she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

choose your favorite translation…they all say the same thing…

Blessings!

 

[GodIsGracious]

[Red emphasis mine.]

catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp

I read through the article listed above written to explain way reform theology teaches that Mary was no longer a virgin after she had Jesus and bore other children along with the Catholic argument on why Mary remained a virgin.

What the article fails to mention is Matthew 1:24-25. This is (along with the verses mentioned in the article) why reform theology teaches that Mary didn’t remain as a virgin once Jesus was born.

Matthew 1:24-25 (with emphasis).

[NASB]
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 but **kept her a virgin until **she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

[KJV]
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[NIV]
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

choose your favorite translation…they all say the same thing…

Blessings!

Actually, you’re wrong. The article did NOT fail to mention Mathew 1:24-25. Infact, it’s even under the heading, “Fundamentalist Arguments”.

Go back and READ the article. ALL the way through.

 

[LilyM]

catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp

I read through the article listed above written to explain way reform theology teaches that Mary was no longer a virgin after she had Jesus and bore other children along with the Catholic argument on why Mary remained a virgin.

What the article fails to mention is Matthew 1:24-25. This is (along with the verses mentioned in the article) why reform theology teaches that Mary didn’t remain as a virgin once Jesus was born.

Matthew 1:24-25 (with emphasis).

[NASB]
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 but **kept her a virgin until **she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

[KJV]
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[NIV]
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

choose your favorite translation…they all say the same thing…

Blessings!

You know all those same translations also say that Michal, wife of David, had no children ‘until the day she died’? By your logic this necessarily means that Michal had children AFTER she died.

They also say ‘Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool’. Clearly, by your logic, Christ will no longer sit at the Father’s right hand AFTER the Father makes His enemies His footstool.

Point being use of the word ‘until’ does NOT imply that a change occurs AFTER the point in time alluded to - Jesus’ birth, Michal’s death, the Father making Christ’s enemies His footstool.

 

[Louie1983]

catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp

I read through the article listed above written to explain way reform theology teaches that Mary was no longer a virgin after she had Jesus and bore other children along with the Catholic argument on why Mary remained a virgin.

What the article fails to mention is Matthew 1:24-25. This is (along with the verses mentioned in the article) why reform theology teaches that Mary didn’t remain as a virgin once Jesus was born.

Matthew 1:24-25 (with emphasis).

[NASB]
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 but **kept her a virgin until **she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

[KJV]
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

[NIV]
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

choose your favorite translation…they all say the same thing…

Blessings!

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here’s an example:

• Matt. 28:29 - I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

lessings.

 

[Stouts989]

:doh2: Hahaha…can’t believe I missed that! That’s what I get for reading quickly at 1 in the morning.

The verses used in the counter argument are invalid though. (2 Samuel 6:23, and Deut. 34:6). I’ll use the same translations to parallel the previous ones.

2 Samuel 6:23
[NASB]
23 Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

[KJV]
23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

[NIV]
23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

Deut. 34:6
[NASB]
6 And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

[KJV]
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

[NIV]
6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

As you can see the argument doesn’t work. In all three translations a different word is present between the Old Testament verses and Matthew 1:25. Two different words with two different meanings are being used to describe what happened.

An interesting word study would be to look at the Septuagint and see which Greek word is being used in 2 Samuel and Deuteronomy and see if its the same Greek word is being used in Matthew 1. Looking at the English translations among three of the most expected translations I think its safe to say that we would find two different Greek words with two different meanings.

I think a better counter argument is needed for the RCC to keep its position in interrupting scripting and the meaning of words.

 

[Stouts989]

• Matt. 28:29 - I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

lessings.

You miss quote scripture…

There is no Matthew 28:29, so I’m guessing you’re referring to verse 20.

Matthew 28:20

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (or world [KJV]).

Again until is not used. In the KJV its unto (different word and different meaning). Also in this Jesus gives an absolute statement “always”, so he’s qualifying what He means by “even to the end of the age”. Also Jesus is talking about his involvement through the Holy Spirit in the work and ministry of the Apostles. Once the end of the Age or World comes there is no more ministry for Jesus to always be there for. So you can easily say (in the context of the passages). Jesus will no longer need to be with His messengers ministry once the world ends because there is no more people to share the Gospel with.

 

[Stouts989]

You know all those same translations also say that Michal, wife of David, had no children ‘until the day she died’? By your logic this necessarily means that Michal had children AFTER she died.

Refer to my previous post. This clearly isn’t True.

They also say ‘Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool’. Clearly, by your logic, Christ will no longer sit at the Father’s right hand AFTER the Father makes His enemies His footstool.

This is poetry…not literal. Jesus isn’t literally sitting at God right hand. God is spirit…he doesn’t ever have a right hand to sit at.

 

[Toribus]

I’m sorry, but your arguments here strike me as weasely. Where someone gives you the original Greek and an explanation, you stick to argument from translations into English.

Elsewhere you dismiss an example out of hand as mere “poetry”, despite being the words of Christ Himself. I for one can’t take you seriously.

In charity,

Anthony OPL

 

[Canto]

1:25 most literaly reads 25and he did not know her, while she brought forth a son…

while Greek = heous hou
Some translate until

The Catholic argument is that heous hou deals up to a point in time but not after. So up to the birth of Christ Joseph did not have sex with Mary, afterwards the Greek does not say. It just deals up to the birth of Christ and not after. Matthew is restating the Virgin birth and pointing out that Joseph played no role in the conception of Christ.

Now some will disagree and say heous hou definintly means they had sex. But if we look at heous hou in the Bible we see this is not the case. Below are three examples.

Matthew 26:36 Then Jesus came with them into a country place which is called Gethsemani. And he said to his disciples: Sit you here,until I go yonder and pray.

So if Heous Hou means something definitly happens then the disciples would have left once Jesus went off to pray, but they didn’t, they stayed and fell asleep.

Matthew 14:22 And forthwith Jesus obliged his disciples to go up into the boat, and to go before him over the water, **until **he dismissed the people.

Once he had dismissed the people where they no longer over the water?

2 Peter 1:19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, **until **the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

Once the day star rises in our hearts do we no longer need to attend to the word?

St John Chrysostom
Gospel of Matthew A.D. 370. talking about he knew her not til…

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.’ He hath here used the word till,’ not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till’? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.’ And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,’ not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,’ it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word “till,” to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.”

In “THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF BLESSED MARY” A.D. 383 St Jerome against Helvidius wrote…

“2. I must call upon the Holy Spirit to express His meaning by my mouth and defend the virginity of the Blessed Mary. I must call upon the Lord Jesus to guard the sacred lodging of the womb in which He abode for ten months from all suspicion of sexual intercourse. And I must also entreat God the Father to show that the mother of His Son, who was a mother before she was a bride, continued a Virgin after her son was born. We have no desire to career over the fields of eloquence, we do not resort to the snares of the logicians or the thickets of Aristotle. We shall adduce the actual words of Scripture. Let him be refuted by the same proofs which he employed against us, so that he may see that it was possible for him to read what is written, and yet to be unable to discern the established conclusion of a sound faith.”

**St Augustine **
15:5 On Marriage and concupisence 419 AD

"[5] …as the heretic Jovinian did, when the holy bishop maintained the permanent virginity of the blessed Mary even after child-bearing, in opposition to this man’s [Jovinian the heretic] impiety.

Holy Virginity 4:4 A.D. 401

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave”

Heresies 56 A.D. 428

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband”

**St Basil **379 (not 2009) AD “The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin”

 

[GodIsGracious]

I’m sorry, but your arguments here strike me as weasely. Where someone gives you the original Greek and an explanation, you stick to argument from translations into English.

Elsewhere you dismiss an example out of hand as mere “poetry”, despite being the words of Christ Himself. I for one can’t take you seriously.

In charity,

Anthony OPL

Anthony, the OP is an example of how protestants merely cherry pick their “sola scriptura” doctrine.

 

[Stouts989]

Canto - Thanks for your reply I greatly appreciate it! I found the Greek Lexicon for heos. I’ll have to doing some more reading as far as it being only refers to past present and not the future. Though you have to agree that if no future state is mentioned then the conclusion that Mary stayed a virgin can’t be made any more than she didn’t remain.

I just find it hard to believe that she did considering the verses given as a likely case as well as the 8-10 verses that talk about Jesus having brothers and sisters. Why must we assume that in all 8-10 verses the brothers and sisters are ALL referring to cousins? Just seems like a stretch…

Again, thanks, for helping to learn more about why the RCC holds this view.

Just some last follow-up questions.

How common was it for Jewish families to have only one child. I’m under the understanding that it was nearly unheard of.

Doe we see anywhere in scripture where God tells Mary or Joseph that Mary must remain a virgin (after Jesus is born) in order to honor Him?

Why wouldn’t Mary want to honor God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply”?

Does the idea that Mary might have had children after Jesus make her any less of a Godly woman…or a saint?

Thanks for your time and thoughts

Anthony, the OP is an example of how protestants merely cherry pick their “sola scriptura” doctrine.

If scripture is the Word of God…then all other writings and teachings are subjected to His Word.

Also…what is OP referring to?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Just some last follow-up questions.

How common was it for Jewish families to have only one child. I’m under the understanding that it was nearly unheard of.

How common was it for Jewish families to give birth to God?

Does the idea that Mary might have had children after Jesus make her any less of a Godly woman…or a saint?

Does her not having anymore children make her any less of a Godly woman or saint?

Thanks for your time and thoughts

You’re welcome.

God bless

 

[Jesus_123]

+In the wonderful gift and blessing of the . . . “The Catechism of the Catholic Church” . . . entrusted to the Church . . . world-wide . . . during John Paul II the Great’s papacy . . . *(Imprimi Potest, + Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) . . . *this subject is dealt with at some length . . . Below is a portion of this sharing . . . *for Holy Mother Church . . . prayerfully . . . guided by the Holy Spirit . . . has clearly . . . definitively . . . spoken to us in regard to your subject . . . *
Mary - "ever-virgin"

[Section 499] "The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.” And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as **** Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin.”

[Section 500] “Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus” are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls “the other Mary.” They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.”

[Section 506] “Mary is a virgin because her virginity is ***the sign of her faith “unadulterated by any doubt,” ***and of her undivided gift of herself to God’s will…” Be very careful dear child . . . Stouts989 . . . the subject you have chosen to discuss deal’s with our . . . *Crucified Lord’s . . . God the Son’s . . . very own Holy Mother *. . . With all due respect . . .for devout Catholics . . . this subject is a . . . ***profoundly holy one ***. . . and the very way that you phrased your subject line . . . *to the heart of my soul in ***Christ Jesus ****. . . is distinctly . . . “not marvelous” . . . and immediately brings up the question as to whether you are really a . . . "seeker of truth" . . . or whether you are just out to get into an argument . . .

If you really are seeking . . . "truth" . . . then pray to our Lord Jesus . . . ***the Blessed Christ ***. . . for a deepening of your faith . . . and the guidance of the Holy Spirit into understanding the teachings and truths that our wonderful Holy Mother Church has opened up . . . and shared in some depth . . . and settled for God’s children in this matter . . .

"Let love be without dissimulation.
Abhor that which is evil;
cleave to that which is good."
Romans 12:9
:bible1:

*God love and bless you with Holy Discernment . . . and may you listen . . . and hear . . . the voice of the Magesterium . . . and the voices of the Holy Saints and Holy Fathers in Holy Mother Church . . . on this subject . . .
*

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank you Dear Holy Spirit of God+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+​

---

Message of the Holy Mother to St. Bernadette at Lourdes, France

"I am the Immaculate Conception"

 

[Tomster]

Canto - Thanks for your reply I greatly appreciate it! I found the Greek Lexicon for heos. I’ll have to doing some more reading as far as it being only refers to past present and not the future. Though you have to agree that if no future state is mentioned then the conclusion that Mary stayed a virgin can’t be made any more than she didn’t remain.

I just find it hard to believe that she did considering the verses given as a likely case as well as the 8-10 verses that talk about Jesus having brothers and sisters. Why must we assume that in all 8-10 verses the brothers and sisters are ALL referring to cousins? Just seems like a stretch…

Again, thanks, for helping to learn more about why the RCC holds this view.

Just some last follow-up questions.

How common was it for Jewish families to have only one child. I’m under the understanding that it was nearly unheard of.

Doe we see anywhere in scripture where God tells Mary or Joseph that Mary must remain a virgin (after Jesus is born) in order to honor Him?

Why wouldn’t Mary want to honor God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply”?

Does the idea that Mary might have had children after Jesus make her any less of a Godly woman…or a saint?

Thanks for your time and thoughts

If scripture is the Word of God…then all other writings and teachings are subjected to His Word.

Also…what is OP referring to?

“If scripture is the Word of God…then all other writings and teachings are subjected to His Word.”

Which writings and teachings would then be authoritative? Yours? If so, how so? Just some follow up questions.

 

[Canto]

Canto - Thanks for your reply I greatly appreciate it! I found the Greek Lexicon for heos. I’ll have to doing some more reading as far as it being only refers to past present and not the future. Though you have to agree that if no future state is mentioned then the conclusion that Mary stayed a virgin can’t be made any more than she didn’t remain.

It doesn’t imply she had sex nor does it imply she didn’t. But the Bible and oral Tradition do not tell us she had sex, in fact the oral Tradition is clear that she remained a virgin her whole entire life.

Ezekiel 44:2 And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut.

I just find it hard to believe that she did considering the verses given as a likely case as well as the 8-10 verses that talk about Jesus having brothers and sisters. Why must we assume that in all 8-10 verses the brothers and sisters are ALL referring to cousins? Just seems like a stretch…

The word used for Elisabeth is kinswoman/cousin as she was releated to Mary but they didn’t live in the same town.

Jesus’ ‘brothers’ (cousins) are called brothers as though not kids of Mary, they grew up together with Jesus in the same town.

The same greek word is used to describe the brothers of Christ who are in the upper room with Mary and the 11 apostles. Luke tells us that there are 120 there. 120-12=108. Surely Mary didn’t have 108 sons after Jesus was born. (c.f. Actsc ch1)

Only Jesus is called a son (singular) of Mary/Joseph
Jesus gave Mary to the care of John on the cross - if he had blood brothers why not them?
If Mary had 7 children on Joseph’s wage as a carpenter it makes you wonder how they managed to get by.

Brothers in Hebrew and Aramaic (and Latin and other ancient languages) could mean cousin or close family friend. When the OT was put in greek cousins etc were still refered to as brothers and this tradtion continued into the NT. Most of the OT quotes in the NT are from the Greek. Jesus and those in Israel/Palestine spoke Aramaic as their every day language.

In Genesis 14:12 (Hebrew and Greek) Lot is referred to as the son of Abram’s brother but two verses later Lot is referred to as Abram’s brother.

Again, thanks, for helping to learn more about why the RCC holds this view.

My pleasure

Just some last follow-up questions.

How common was it for Jewish families to have only one child. I’m under the understanding that it was nearly unheard of.

How common was it for a Jewish person to give birth to God in the flesh?

Doe we see anywhere in scripture where God tells Mary or Joseph that Mary must remain a virgin (after Jesus is born) in order to honor Him?

Do we see scripture that explicitly says they (Mary and Joseph) must have sex.

Why wouldn’t Mary want to honor God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply”?

As St Augustine noted (comenting on the how can this be verse of Luke ch1) Mary made a vow of virginity, consecrating herself to the Lord, and when you make a vow with God he doesn’t ask you to break it. There is nothing wrong with virginity. In fact doesn’t St Paul speak highly of celibacy?

Does the idea that Mary might have had children after Jesus make her any less of a Godly woman…or a saint?

Nope, but who am I to deny the truth.

If scripture is the Word of God…then all other writings and teachings are subjected to His Word.

St Paul told the Theselonians that Tradition is written (the Bible) and spoken (oral Tradition).

Not to go off topic, but how do you know that all the right books are in the NT?

Also…what is OP referring to?

OP is original poster from what I gather

 

[Stouts989]

Ezekiel 44:2 And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut.

This is referring to Mary?..

St Paul told the Theselonians that Tradition is written (the Bible) and spoken (oral Tradition).

Who’s spoken tradition was he (Paul) referring to?

Not to go off topic, but how do you know that all the right books are in the NT?

Because God set it up that way. Throughout the Old Testament God worked to make sure the Gospel was carried out through Jesus. Why wouldn’t He do the same to make sure we have His complete written Word?

 

[Stouts989]

+In the wonderful gift and blessing of the . . . "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" . . . entrusted to the Church . . . world-wide . . . during John Paul II the Great’s papacy . . . *(Imprimi Potest, + Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) . . . *this subject is dealt with at some length . . . Below is a portion of this sharing . . . for Holy Mother Church . . . prayerfully . . . guided by the Holy Spirit . . . has clearly . . . definitively . . . spoken to us in regard to your subject . . .
Mary - "ever-virgin"

[Section 499] "The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.” And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as **** Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin.”

[Section 500] “Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus” are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls “the other Mary.” They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.”

[Section 506] “Mary is a virgin because her virginity is ***the sign of her faith “unadulterated by any doubt,” ***and of her undivided gift of herself to God’s will…” Be very careful dear child . . . Stouts989 . . . the subject you have chosen to discuss deal’s with our . . . Crucified Lord’s . . . God the Son’s . . . very own Holy Mother . . . With all due respect . . .for devout Catholics . . . this subject is a . . . ***profoundly holy one ***. . . and the very way that you phrased your subject line . . . *to the heart of my soul in ***Christ Jesus ****. . . is distinctly . . . "not marvelous" . . . and immediately brings up the question as to whether you are really a . . . "seeker of truth" . . . or whether you are just out to get into an argument . . .

If you really are seeking . . . "truth" . . . then pray to our Lord Jesus . . . ***the Blessed Christ ***. . . for a deepening of your faith . . . and the guidance of the Holy Spirit into understanding the teachings and truths that our wonderful Holy Mother Church has opened up . . . and shared in some depth . . . and settled for God’s children in this matter . . .

"Let love be without dissimulation.
Abhor that which is evil;
cleave to that which is good."
Romans 12:9
:bible1:

God love and bless you with Holy Discernment . . . and may you listen . . . and hear . . . the voice of the Magesterium . . . and the voices of the Holy Saints and Holy Fathers in Holy Mother Church . . . on this subject . . .

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank you Dear Holy Spirit of God+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+​

---

Message of the Holy Mother to St. Bernadette at Lourdes, France

"I am the Immaculate Conception"

Why doesn’t the CCC give scripture to support the statements it makes about what the RCC believes?

I’m not trying to just argue with people. No need to worry about that. Trying to a gain better understanding of the RCC view of Mary.

It doesn’t matter to me weather Mary remained a virgin or not. If she did remain, Praise God! If she decided to have children with Joseph, then praise God!. It doesn’t have any effect on her salvation or her obedience to God in her willingness to serve Him in the way that she did. And I’m am very thankful for that. In the big picture its a mood point, but I do want to understand why I should believe what the RCC teaches about Mary.

So again thank you for the responses.

 

[Canto]

This is referring to Mary?..

Many OT verses point to Christ so in a way yes.

Who’s spoken tradition was he (Paul) referring to?

The spoken Tradition (not to be confused with customs or disciplines) is alongside scripture the word of God. So that’s why Paul tells us to hold onto both. It’s the word of God - not the word of man.

Because God set it up that way. Throughout the Old Testament God worked to make sure the Gospel was carried out through Jesus. Why wouldn’t He do the same to make sure we have His complete written Word?

The Bible never tells us what the contents page for the NT is. So how do we know what books should be included?

If God told us, who did he tell? In the early centuries there was a man called Marcion who had only 10 Pauline epistles and a condensed Luke in his canon. Some had Baruch, some didn’t have Revelation etc.

I believe the Church using oral tradition and guided by the Holy Spirit gave us the contents page. They selected books that didn’t contradict the oral tradition.

So if the Church and oral Tradition is right on the canon maybe the Church and oral Tradition is right on the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary

 

[Canto]

Why doesn’t the CCC give scripture to support the statements it makes about what the RCC believes?

I’m not trying to just argue with people. No need to worry about that. Trying to a gain better understanding of the RCC view of Mary.

Cool!

The CCC is full of scripture. Just look at the footnotes. In my hardcopy in the appendix it lists the books of the Bible and under each it lists all the scripture references and the page number. The ammount of scripture quoted in the CCC is massive.

Often when people quote the CCC here they don’t include the footnotes.

In the big picture its a mood point, but I do want to understand why I should believe what the RCC teaches about Mary.

Becuase the Church teaches the word of God without emission.

Many here at CAF have noted that the Marian dogmas teach us something about Christ - I like this point. Her soul magnifies the Lord.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Why doesn’t the CCC give scripture to support the statements it makes about what the RCC believes?

Actually, The Cathechism of the Catholic Church DOES give scripture to support statements. I don’t think you’ve even cracked open the book. To make it easier, the Vatican has it online:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

That’s the English version.