The number of Catholics in Latin America has dropped 25%

[Tommy999]

Remaining in a religion one is born to normally requires no effort of will; conversion does.

So it is no surprise that those who leave the Church take their chosen religion more seriously than those who remain.

ICXC NIKA.

I agree, GEddie. I’ve also seen some U.S. naturalized citizens from elsewhere who take their US citizenship more seriously (voting, etc) than some U.S. citizens who were born and raised here. Same sort of principle. It’s not true in every case, but true in many cases.

Sometimes we sadly take things for granted that we don’t choose for ourselves.

 

[JustaServant]

Pew forums are respected.

I think he is pointing out it has more to do with illegal immigration. Which is certainly far above 25% in over forty years.
IOWs, its really a non-story.

 

[ltwin]

I think he is pointing out it has more to do with illegal immigration. Which is certainly far above 25% in over forty years.
IOWs, its really a non-story.

But the statistics in the article are dealing with the proportion of Catholics, Protestants, and the religiously unaffiliated as percentages of the population. The fact that the proportion of the population that is Catholic fell from 92% in 1970 to 69% today. At the same time, the number of Protestants has grown to 19%.

Furthermore, according to the Pew Forum statistics, 89% were raised Catholic but the Catholic Church has retained only 69%. Meanwhile, only 9% were raised Protestant but these churches have grown to 19%, which means that most Protestants today were raised Catholic as children.Catholicism is on a trajectory to lose its cultural hegemony if these trends continue. That is why its a story.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Kind of like the three bears; this one is too hard; this one is too soft; this one is just right. This is what happens when one seeks a church that agrees with them rather than seeking the truth and conforming one’s life to it.

That is true, but it is also certainly true that the members of the Church do not always do a good job of portraying the truth. There might be cases where accusations of moral laxity are really a product of a pharisaical rigorism (e.g. woman must never wear pants, alcohol is absolutely forbidden). I see that all the time in the Baptist South. On the other hand, I am sure it is the case that in Latin America (to say nothing of elsewhere) that both clerics and laity have failed to live up to their callings.

Because God shouldn’t make you feel anything, right?

Feelings are not something essential to true religion. Religion is based on faith, not on feelings. If we based our beliefs on our feelings or convictions we would lapse into relativism as their are many atheists who are happier than most Christians and Muslims who are zealous. But their feelings are not the result of divine illumination. If one’s beliefs are based primarily on feelings, than he has built his faith on sand.

Scott is right as far as that is, although I don’t think it would be fair or accurate to generalize Protestants as basing their religion only on feelings.

 

[dronald]

Feelings are not something essential to true religion. Religion is based on faith, not on feelings. If we based our beliefs on our feelings or convictions we would lapse into relativism as their are many atheists who are happier than most Christians and Muslims who are zealous. But their feelings are not the result of divine illumination. If one’s beliefs are based primarily on feelings, than he has built his faith on sand.

Scott is right as far as that is, although I don’t think it would be fair or accurate to generalize Protestants as basing their religion only on feelings.

What are these feelings anyways? When I think of the way I feel at my Church it’s joy and love. To say that God isn’t present because of that just strikes me as odd.

 

[Estevao]

I follow a priest with an online apostolate in Brazil, and there was a beautiful article on his blog written by a contributor recently that was entitled “I was Catholic and God converted me”.

It was about how hard it is for “catholics” to convert, rather than buddhists, atheists, protestants, etc. She told how she went to confession, said her sins, but justified them an in an outbreak of sincerity she said she wasn’t going to repent because she didn’t agree that she had to. And the priest told her calmly:

“My dear, I therefore cannot absolve you. Without repentance and a promise to avoid these paths of sin, confession is worthless. Do you want some advice? Stop suffering. Leave the Church since She doesn’t satisfy you, but don’t select only the parts that you agree with and still say that you are a Catholic. This business of not agreeing and doing what you want doesn’t exist, be honest and leave. The other option is for you to look up the answers to your doubts in the Catechism and obey the Pope. In this way you will actually be a Catholic. As it is, you are not.”

She then related her conversion after, but the thing that struck me is that she had been a catholic all her life, but that she had NEVER heard a priest speak like this.

padrepauloricardo.org/blog/eu-era-catolica-e-deus-me-converteu#at_pco=smlwn-1.0&at_si=5466f92d7dcab556&at_ab=per-2&at_pos=0&at_tot=1

I can’t say I’m really an expert of what it’s like in a Catholic country like Brazil, but it appears you have this kind of wimpy bureaucracy there that tries to pass for the Church but people clearly see otherwise, unless they have the grace of seeing this apostolate or having a parish with some zeal for the faith.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

What are these feelings anyways? When I think of the way I feel at my Church it’s joy and love. To say that God isn’t present because of that just strikes me as odd.

What do you mean? No one as far as I can tell has said that if joy and love are present, then that implies God is not present. If you mean that feelings of joy and love imply that God is present (in the sense that these feelings are caused immediately by God in virtue of your location), then that is false. Good feelings do not depend on any supernatural grace.

 

[dronald]

What do you mean? No one as far as I can tell has said that if joy and love are present, then that implies God is not present. If you mean that feelings of joy and love imply that God is present (in the sense that these feelings are caused immediately by God in virtue of your location), then that is false. Good feelings do not depend on any supernatural grace.

Okay, so what’s the objection then?

Evangelicals are more likely to have joy and feel loved in their sermons therefore they must base their faith on feelings? Seriously, I’m still not sure what this feelings argument is.

 

[josie_L]

I found this article to be an interesting read, here’s a quote from said article:

Conversion to Latin American Protestantism and the Case for Religious Motivation

But then came the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement, which was initiated by an outbreak of ―baptisms in the Holy Spirit‖ that began at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh in 1967 (Laurentin 1977; Mansfield 1992) and was taken south by American priests in the early 1970s. It is revealing that the members of this movement ―initially called themselves Pentecostal Catholics‖ (Chesnut 2003b: 61); and aside from some distinctive elements of Catholic culture, such as an emphasis on the Virgin Mary, it is difficult to tell Protestant and Catholic charismatics apart. Both conduct vibrant, emotion-packed worship services during which clergy and members of the congregation often engage in glossolalia, or speaking in tongues. Both put great stress on miraculous healing. Having evolved into an international movement with a central headquarters in the Vatican, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement (CCR) now provides the backbone of Catholic commitment in Latin America. Although there are no reliable national statistics on CCR membership, it is estimated that there are at least 30 million members in Latin America, according to the coordinator of the CCR in the Vatican (Martinez 2009). In any event, the impact of the CCR on the religious life of Latin America has been immense. Just as Protestant Pentecostals fill soccer stadia for massive revivals, CCR revivals fill the same stadia. In addition, the CCR has established tens of thousands of weekly prayer groups, which, unlike the Base Communities, have generated intense levels of public commitment. For example, Catholic Mass attendance had long been notoriously low in Latin America, but today according to World Poll data, Latin Catholics display remarkably high levels of Mass attendance—in excess of 60 percent a week in many nations. This was accomplished not by sermons about how the Church could organize to mitigate material deprivations, but by sermons invoking the Holy Spirit, thereby activating religious motivations for religiousness

www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr06007.pdf

or this:

Protestant Problems? What Protestant Problems?: The Coming Golden Age of Latin American Catholicism

The basic point is that competition from Protestants acted as an alarm clock to the Church. It forced many to realize that their efforts among wide sections of the Latin American population had been sub par, and then to refocus their energies to re-evangelize the population. And although Pope John Paul II has referred to evangelicals in Latin America as “rapacious wolves,” the more general response on the part of the RCC has been what the Santo Domingo conference dubbed “A New Evangelization.” That is a good thing. The more energy the RCC devotes to constant evangelization of the Latin American population, the better it is for everyone. First, religious consumers will get better service. Second, given that religious organizations are often the foundation for civil society, such re-evangelization is likely to enhance grassroots democracy.17 In short, then, Protestant competition is not a problem for the Catholic Church, but it is a blessing.18 Remember, those “rapacious wolves” are poaching marginal Catholics, people who had little contact with organized religion. Many of these churches are actually helping people sort out their lives and become better people and citizens (Brusco 1995). Without that competition, the Church might not be upping its effort in the region to the extent that it currently is.

faculty.washington.edu/tgill/Gill%20Protestant%20Problems.pdf

 

[WildCatholic]

I don’t know if I’m comfortable with the Charismatic Renewal. I think there can and is good from it that outweighs the bad but i’m sure there are many who are just there based on their feelings and what are they to do if God doesn’t answer their prayers or they get bored in mass? I’m not against feelings but i’m against using feelings as the whole basis of faith. If you just use feelings then you are in danger of losing faith. Many saints persisted in spite of feelings such as Mother Theresa.

The problem with protestantism in a lot of cases is that its all about feelings. Evangelicals in South America are also probably more of the Joel Osteen type who emphasize health and wealth rather than those who are more spiritually sound in the protestant camp. So in my opinion because of this I think we will see a revival in Catholicism in Latin America because churches will get better and educate people so that they won’t fall prey to a bunch of feelings

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Okay, so what’s the objection then?

Evangelicals are more likely to have joy and feel loved in their sermons therefore they must base their faith on feelings? Seriously, I’m still not sure what this feelings argument is.

1. Scott said the most Protestants religion is based only on feelings and that they fall away as soon as the feelings are not there. I don’t dispute the second part of that, but I don’t think that is an accurate representation of most Protestants.
2. You picked out what he said there and responded, “Because God shouldn’t make you feel anything, right?” I don’t know what you intended to convey with your sarcasm, but to some, it might appear that, by responding in that way, you were validating Scott’s description as an accurate representation of Protestants, or at least of yourself.
3. I hoped to clarify what is meant so that no one would walk away with the impression that your beliefs were based primarily on feelings if that were not accurate.

However, your responses to my posts have been less than clear. For example, all you say above is, “Evangelicals are more likely to have joy and feel loved in their sermons therefore they must base their faith on feelings?” which is not an accurate summary of anything I said. Earlier you said in a response to me, “To say that God isn’t present because of that just strikes me as odd.” This was an ambiguous statement that could be interpreted in radically different senses, neither of the interpretations good. Why don’t you clarify your response to Scott. You will catch more flies with honey than with sarcasm.

 

[dronald]

1. Scott said the most Protestants religion is based only on feelings and that they fall away as soon as the feelings are not there. I don’t dispute the second part of that, but I don’t think that is an accurate representation of most Protestants.
2. You picked out what he said there and responded, “Because God shouldn’t make you feel anything, right?” I don’t know what you intended to convey with your sarcasm, but to some, it might appear that, by responding in that way, you were validating Scott’s description as an accurate representation of Protestants, or at least of yourself.
3. I hoped to clarify what is meant so that no one would walk away with the impression that your beliefs were based primarily on feelings if that were not accurate.

However, your responses to my posts have been less than clear. For example, all you say above is, “Evangelicals are more likely to have joy and feel loved in their sermons therefore they must base their faith on feelings?” which is not an accurate summary of anything I said. Earlier you said in a response to me, “To say that God isn’t present because of that just strikes me as odd.” This was an ambiguous statement that could be interpreted in radically different senses, neither of the interpretations good. Why don’t you clarify your response to Scott. You will catch more flies with honey than with sarcasm.

My question is, what are these feelings. And it is ridiculous to think that God, in our Church would not grant us emotions. And to say that anything is lacking because of said feelings is odd in it’s self. But yes, perhaps I should continue to address the original person to say something on this topic.

Well, the translation of this is that non-Catholic denominations are good at whipping up sentiment and feelings, which is conflated with a personal connection with God. It is like the seed sown upon rocky soil. Many will fall away when it stops feeling good.

Again, what are these feelings. Is it true that a greater feeling of passion, love and joy equate a greater absence of God? If not, then what feelings are you talking about?

 

[GEddie]

It seems TTASM that youse guys are just yelling past each other.

Breathe! Pull back.

The references to “feelings” seemed to begin where someone remarked that Catholic “de-converts” seem to feel more in their new faith.

This led to the remark that “faith should not be based upon feelings” (which a priori is true).

And then the counter remark that “does that mean we shouldn’t feel,” which is not.

Of course we should feel. Emotional feeling, like our skin or nose, is a gift from God.

But faith should survive a hiatus in feeling, just as we continue to live with a blocked nose.

I’ve no doubt that ex-Catholics feel more in their new faith. But newness has that effect; it doesn’t last.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

My question is, what are these feelings. And it is ridiculous to think that God, in our Church would not grant us emotions. And to say that anything is lacking because of said feelings is odd in it’s self. But yes, perhaps I should continue to address the original person to say something on this topic.

Again, what are these feelings. Is it true that a greater feeling of passion, love and joy equate a greater absence of God? If not, then what feelings are you talking about?

Are you trying in good faith to accurately report what he or I said?

No one, not Scott nor I, said that feeling good is bad or a sign of God’s absence. What we are in agreement against is the sort of false faith in which someone believes their pastor is right because they feel good or even “convicted” when they here his sermons. Or that their church’s order of service is the right way to do things because they feel excited at their service whereas the Catholic mass is dry and boring to them. On the other hand, I might feel very good listening to my own pastor’s sermons and feel very good during the mass. And a Muslim probably feels very good praying in the mosque and hearing sermons against Christianity. If we all based our discernment of the truth on that what makes us feel good, then we would have to conclude that all these people believe the truth even though they believe contradictory things. And if they fall into a low point in their lives due to difficult circumstances or medial conditions, if their belief is based solely on those feelings they had formerly, they will naturally reject what they believed before and fall away.

I of course never said that feeling good is bad or a sign of God’s absence. But I reject the Pharisaism I observe among many of the local Evangelicals who say that the louder and the more extroverted you are, the more godly you are. The louder and the longer you pray, the holier you are. The more “convicted” (viz. close-minded and ignorant) you are, the more spiritual you are. Maybe you do not experience this where you live, but this is a very common mindset where I live.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

It seems TTASM that youse guys are just yelling past each other.

Breathe! Pull back.

The references to “feelings” seemed to begin where someone remarked that Catholic “de-converts” seem to feel more in their new faith.

This led to the remark that “faith should not be based upon feelings” (which a priori is true).

And then the counter remark that “does that mean we shouldn’t feel,” which is not.

Of course we should feel. Emotional feeling, like our skin or nose, is a gift from God.

But faith should survive a hiatus in feeling, just as we continue to live with a blocked nose.

I’ve no doubt that ex-Catholics feel more in their new faith. But newness has that effect; it doesn’t last.

ICXC NIKA.

I would say your summary is accurate. But I think also that we should not say that someone is not godly because they do not have the same emotional state that we do. Maybe they feel unmotivated to read Scripture. Maybe they feel bored during sermons. Maybe they don’t enjoy church services. Maybe they suffer from feelings of depression or problems along those lines. People can have emotional difficulties and still be Christians. And the fact that someone is happy, will they be justified before God on the basis of their emotions if that is all they have in their defense?

 

[hello123]

the catholic hierarchy is to be blamed for this drop and some of them are still denial that catholics are leaving the fold.a year ago,i was in guatemala and a priest kept insisting that it is still a catholic nation,which is not true ,as evangelicals became the majority since ~ 2008.what saddens me is the latinos here in the USA ,majority of the youth now considered themselves Evangelicals.There was a post /link here before about it.i have spoken to several ex catholics and they told me that they felt uplifted when they attend non catholic services.it is a common knowledge that most priests homilies are sleep inducer,especially with people suferring from insomnia.they based their homilies on the lives of adam and eve ,whilst evangelicals on current events,life scenario e.g. family and individual problems.two weeks ago ,our homilist was a dud ,he was basically whispering ,despite being a huge and manly person.believed me,nobody did pay attention to what message he was trying to convey,as i doubt that anybody could hear him .i wrote the main pastor and told him that the new priest ,needs more training and that he should not sound like he is defeated or just whispering.

 

[boar2roar]

the catholic hierarchy is to be blamed for this drop and some of them are still denial that catholics are leaving the fold.a year ago,i was in guatemala and a priest kept insisting that it is still a catholic nation,which is not true ,as evangelicals became the majority since ~ 2008.what saddens me is the latinos here in the USA ,majority of the youth now considered themselves Evangelicals.There was a post /link here before about it.i have spoken to several ex catholics and they told me that they felt uplifted when they attend non catholic services.it is a common knowledge that most priests homilies are sleep inducer,especially with people suferring from insomnia.they based their homilies on the lives of adam and eve ,whilst evangelicals on current events,life scenario e.g. family and individual problems.two weeks ago ,our homilist was a dud ,he was basically whispering ,despite being a huge and manly person.believed me,nobody did pay attention to what message he was trying to convey,as i doubt that anybody could hear him .i wrote the main pastor and told him that the new priest ,needs more training and that he should not sound like he is defeated or just whispering.

Its mainly a reaching out thing. If you don’t go to mass or you do go no one will notice, its like your not even there. Evangelicals are far more personal, much more like a community.

I’m not a big fan of some of the catholic leadership in Latin America. A lot them think getting chummy with the politicians and the elite is important. I don’t, in most cases the politicians ignore them on church teachings, they still invite them to galas and private parties but a lot of these leaders need to wake up and realize that if catholic numbers fall enough the politicians will abandon them like an old rag and will start courting the evangelicals. Its already started in Brazil…

 

[chero23]

Kind of like the three bears; this one is too hard; this one is too soft; this one is just right. This is what happens when one seeks a church that agrees with them rather than seeking the truth and conforming one’s life to it.

I think people who say that just want an excuse. They think by saying that they are giving a reason for justification. It does not make any sense.

 

[chero23]

Well, the translation of this is that non-Catholic denominations are good at whipping up sentiment and feelings, which is conflated with a personal connection with God. It is like the seed sown upon rocky soil. Many will fall away when it stops feeling good.

I agree.

I really wish God can help out the Church, we have a lot of good people, a lot of these people who leave are not bad, nor stubborn, but like you said they feel good when they go to these services.

I pray to God that these people who want to convert Catholics just have a chamge of heart, they are sending a lot of people down the wrong road.

 

[chero23]

Most Protestants hold to once saved always saved, therefore, there is no need for confession.

ICXC NIKA

The priest at my parish said a lot of those who leave is because of confession. Defeats the whole purpose of Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to the Church to forgive sins.