The Old Mass

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Deacon Ed:
Ummm…I don’t think that “lying at table” would be considered quite approptiate for Mass, do you? Jesus was at table with his friends. In those days the table was “U” shaped and people lay around the outside and the inside of the “U”. BTW, St. Peter’s in Rome has always had the priest facing the people because of the architecture of the church. Free-standing mensas (altars) were the norm in the early Church as evidenced by archeological finds.

Deacon Ed
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While it was common to recline while dining during this period, in this part of the world, there is no absolutely conclusive evidence that Jesus Christ and the Apostles reclined at the Last Supper. None. After all, this wasn’t just another meal…

Others have suggested that the Apostles and other priests of the early church faced away from the congregation while celebrating the Mass. That’s laughable. I don’t think that some understand that a celebrant can be facing ad orientum AND versus populum at the same time. Please pardon my spelling…
 
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Crusader:
While it was common to recline while dining during this period, in this part of the world, there is no absolutely conclusive evidence that Jesus Christ and the Apostles reclined at the Last Supper. None. After all, this wasn’t just another meal…

Others have suggested that the Apostles and other priests of the early church faced away from the congregation while celebrating the Mass. That’s laughable. I don’t think that some understand that a celebrant can be facing ad orientum AND versus populum at the same time. Please pardon my spelling…
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An argument from silence is pretty weak. Absent any contrary evidence, we must go with what was usual and customary. That would be lying at table.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
An argument from silence is pretty weak. Absent any contrary evidence, we must go with what was usual and customary. That would be lying at table.

Deacon Ed
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We “must” do nothing of the kind. The Last Supper was no ordinary meal. To suggest that we “must” apply what is “usual and customary” for a regular meal to the Last Supper illustrates a shortcoming in one’s review of history…
 
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Crusader:
We “must” do nothing of the kind. The Last Supper was no ordinary meal. To suggest that we “must” apply what is “usual and customary” for a regular meal to the Last Supper illustrates a shortcoming in one’s review of history…
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Then how about we stick with what Scripture says?
  • Mt. 26:20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.
  • Mk 14:18 And as they reclined at table and were eating, Jesus said, “Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.”
Neither John nor Luke say anything about posture, Luke says simply that he took his place at table.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed!!!

You mean Jesus wasn’t standing with His back to the 12???

How can that be?
 
If we are going to play early church we ought to:

-Not allow non-catholics in the Mass
-Dismiss the catecumens at a certain point
-get rid of the pews
-seperate the men and women
-no laity participation

guys we do not know what the early church was like, people who bring them up usually have an agenda.
 
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Iohannes:
If we are going to play early church we ought to:

-Not allow non-catholics in the Mass
-Dismiss the catecumens at a certain point
-get rid of the pews
-seperate the men and women
-no laity participation

guys we do not know what the early church was like, people who bring them up usually have an agenda.
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Iohannes: thank you for coming back and posting this!!!
Some things to add to his list:
  • Celebration of Mass in masoleums, catacombs, and sewers
  • Christianity being illegal and punishable by death or serious punishment
  • exiles to Crimea and the Sahara desert
  • having to hide your relgion so as to not be killed by the ROman governmental officials
  • having to completely disassociate yourself with Roman society for the most part.examples: Your children can’t go to Roman schools, you can’t go to the bar, bathhouses[these were the main meeting places of the Romans and were more than baths], you had to fast, and other things like this
  • also every Christian who could read had a responsability to recite the Psalms, which also mean waking up at midnight to start praying Matins and Lauds,[this is documented]
  • Bishops excommunicate persons for small offenses[by today’s standards] and Confession penances lasted for years
Do modern Catholics do this? No. Would Catholics want to do it? Probably not. So don’t mention the “ancient church did it” if you can’t even discipline yourslef according to modern bishops.
 
Fortunately, the Church is wise enough to know that not everything from the past should be restored. Some of the ancient practices are valid while others no longer speak to the people of today.

BTW, go to Europe and the large, old cathedrals do not have pews. There was no lay participation in the Mass of Trent, but the early Masses did have lay participation – until the seminarians took over their functions. Remember, in the Tridentine Mass the altar servers responded on behalf of the people!

Nope, I’ll trust the Church to provide leadership in this area.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
Fortunately, the Church is wise enough to know that not everything from the past should be restored. Some of the ancient practices are valid while others no longer speak to the people of today.

BTW, go to Europe and the large, old cathedrals do not have pews. There was no lay participation in the Mass of Trent, but the early Masses did have lay participation – until the seminarians took over their functions. Remember, in the Tridentine Mass the altar servers responded on behalf of the people!

Nope, I’ll trust the Church to provide leadership in this area.

Deacon Ed
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Oh no, not the people of today!!! What about the people of yesterday!!! What about the people of the future!!! This is one of the reasons the Traditional Latin Mass is needed. It accomadates to no specific group of people, past,present, and future. The Latin is old and not the vernacular, the rubrics are as unmovable as a mountain, the Sacrifice is apparent, the reverence is immutable.
Now don’t tell me “When I was a child, Monsignor O’ Conner Brien Kennedy, did a Low Mass in 15 minutes on a Sunday!!!”. The truth is the truth. This was a very American abuse and in other places the problem was that the Mass is to long and that the prayers were too long.You can complain and complain but the root is dislike of the TLM. To some its the 1/4 hour Mass but to others its the 14 hour Mass. This is just another complaint against the Immemorial Mass of the Roman Rite[notice I said Roman Rite]. “Everyonr is a wise guy” as I was once told by a wise person.
 
Deacon Ed:
Then how about we stick with what Scripture says?
  • Mt. 26:20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.
  • Mk 14:18 And as they reclined at table and were eating, Jesus said, “Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.”
Neither John nor Luke say anything about posture, Luke says simply that he took his place at table.

Deacon Ed
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“Reclined” can make a great many things…

In any event, how about we actually look at Sacred Scripture:

Mat 26:20 When it was evening, he sat at table with the twelve disciples; (Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition)

Mat 26:20 But when it was evening, he sat down with his twelve disciples. (Douay Rheims Version)

Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. (King James Version)
 
Mar 14:18 And when they were at table and eating, Jesus saith: Amen I say to you, one of you that eateth with me shall betray me. (Douay)

Mar 14:18 And as they were at table eating, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” (RSVCE)

Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. (KJV)
 
And after they sat down, they probably reclined as was the custom for dining in those days. Gee I am sorry but I seem to have lost the point of this discussion - sitting vs reclining that is?
 
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Iohannes:
If we are going to play early church we ought to:

-Not allow non-catholics in the Mass
-Dismiss the catecumens at a certain point
-get rid of the pews
-seperate the men and women
-no laity participation

guys we do not know what the early church was like, people who bring them up usually have an agenda.
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We most certainly do know what the early church was like. Try readings St. Justin’s Apology as a beginning primer…

In any event, the only Christians during that period were Catholic Christians. Keeping non-Christians away from the Mass back then was typically a matter of survival. Doing so today would be foolish.

Catecumens are dismissed at Sunday Mass at my parish once the Liturgy of the Word is complete.

Nothing suggests that men and women were sperated when attending the Mass in private homes or the Catacombs during the early church. That would have come much later, perhaps 1500 years later when the “Tridentine Mass” was instituted.

The laity was likely quite involved at Masses celebrated in the early church – few clerics to go around and all…

It cracks me up to think that people equate the early church to 1950 and the “TLM.”
 
It cracks me up to think that people equate the early church to 1950 and the “TLM.”
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It doesn’t crack me up but it makes me sad that they believe that everything began and ended with the Council of Trent. I have even heard some say that the Tridentine Mass has been around 2000 years - :rolleyes:

The Tridentine Mass, which I dearly love and attend, was granted by Indult to unite and not to divide, to hope to bring back into the Church (I dare not use the word absorb them back into the
Church without chastisement from one of our posters) those who also love this Mass but were attending illicit Tridentine Masses.

Unfortunately there are those who now have the opportunity to attend a licit Tridentine Mass and yet continue to promote these half truths which will continue to divide us.

Yes, it makes me very sad. I pray daily that those in Schism, Orthodox and Anglicans will some how one day be united with us again
 
I see some strong parallels between “traditional Catholics” who suggest the “traditional latin Mass” is somehow superior to the Novus Ordo Mass, and “KJV-only Protestants” who believe that version is somehow superior to all other versions (despite its horrible shortcomings)…
 
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deogratias:
It doesn’t crack me up but it makes me sad that they believe that everything began and ended with the Council of Trent. I have even heard some say that the Tridentine Mass has been around 2000 years - :rolleyes:

The Tridentine Mass, which I dearly love and attend, was granted by Indult to unite and not to divide, to hope to bring back into the Church (I dare not use the word absorb them back into the
Church without chastisement from one of our posters) those who also love this Mass but were attending illicit Tridentine Masses.

Unfortunately there are those who now have the opportunity to attend a licit Tridentine Mass and yet continue to promote these half truths which will continue to divide us.

Yes, it makes me very sad. I pray daily that those in Schism, Orthodox and Anglicans will some how one day be united with us again
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Aren’t the Anglicans actually in heresy?
 
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Crusader:
We most certainly do know what the early church was like. Try readings St. Justin’s Apology as a beginning primer…

In any event, the only Christians during that period were Catholic Christians. Keeping non-Christians away from the Mass back then was typically a matter of survival. Doing so today would be foolish.

Catecumens are dismissed at Sunday Mass at my parish once the Liturgy of the Word is complete.

Nothing suggests that men and women were sperated when attending the Mass in private homes or the Catacombs during the early church. That would have come much later, perhaps 1500 years later when the “Tridentine Mass” was instituted.

The laity was likely quite involved at Masses celebrated in the early church – few clerics to go around and all…

It cracks me up to think that people equate the early church to 1950 and the “TLM.”
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Crusader, you need to learn about the early church. Hippolytus was the first antipope and died about 236. There were heretics back then. It jsut not recorded. St.Justin’s apology can be mistranslated and words can be substituted to imply a more protestant meaning. Did you read it in Latin?

Telling heretics not to receive Holy Eucharist today is laudable. Your showing your true colors. The Church has excommunicated persons who harm the Faithful for centuries and it doesn’t really matter what some New Age[read modernist] people say.

Actually Byzantine CHristians also traditionally separate Men from Women in the Church and traditionally women wear veils. Its not just aTridentine thing. Go to St.Elias UGCC parish, Brampton,Canada .Its funny how some hate the Ecumenical Council of Trent. I wish there was a Trent II. God give us a council the type of Trent to attack the errors of our day.

BTW, 1950 was far from the days of the early history of the Church. Why do you detest the TLM? Tell me why,crusader?
 
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Crusader:
I see some strong parallels between “traditional Catholics” who suggest the “traditional latin Mass” is somehow superior to the Novus Ordo Mass, and “KJV-only Protestants” who believe that version is somehow superior to all other versions (despite its horrible shortcomings)…
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Good you can see. What is your beef with the TLM?
 
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deogratias:
It doesn’t crack me up but it makes me sad that they believe that everything began and ended with the Council of Trent. I have even heard some say that the Tridentine Mass has been around 2000 years - :rolleyes:
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The Tridentine Mass, which I dearly love and attend, was granted by Indult to unite and not to divide, to hope to bring back into the Church (I dare not use the word absorb them back into the Church without chastisement from one of our posters) those who also love this Mass but were attending illicit Tridentine Masses.

Unfortunately there are those who now have the opportunity to attend a licit Tridentine Mass and yet continue to promote these half truths which will continue to divide us.

Yes, it makes me very sad. I pray daily that those in Schism, Orthodox and Anglicans will some how one day be united with us again

Sheesh,deogratias you of all people know who Traditional Catholics – in agreement with you and not – believe that the same thing is the beginning and the end. I think you can answer me with a verse heard at almost every TLM.

How can you prove that the Traditional Latin Mass is not ancient?
The early history of the Church is a period from Christ’s death to about 312. When did the Roman Canon become known? About 350. What are these half truths Traditional Catholics teach?

P.S. Loraine Boettner was never a Catholic but a Calvinist apologist who wrote a book called “Roman Catholicism”. He has stated that Peter was never in Rome and his other books are books about Calvinism and are very antiCatholic. This man is not a reputable source for a Catholic apologetics for Vatican II. A Catholic shouldn’t read his books. Try one of the CHurch Fathers or StS.Robert Bellarmine, Carlo Borromeo, Alfonso Ligouri, Louis de Montfort.
 
I decided to throw in my 2 cents here.

Being a young fogey (wife even younger) I would like to comment on my observations of the Novus Ordo Mass which I experienced all through my childhood.

I experienced the Novus Ordo (Missal of Paul VI) my entire life. I grew up with it. I’ve experienced much of the chaos and heterodoxy and abuses that others hear have written. I didn’t know or undersand what or why something was right or wrong. Or if teaching was right or wrong etc.

What I have never experienced (in retrospect and with much graces in love and devotion to the Holy Eucharist) is a Novus Ordo Mass without abuse.

This is something that must be understood. I’ve never been to one that wasn’t ripe with abuses. Do you undertand that!?

I attend the Eastern Church’s Divine Liturgy and when able the Tridentine Latin Rite…and I find devotion and love and Holy Tradition. It all works together to reflect what the Mass Truly IS.

The New Mass won’t last another generation. Is it fit for my children? I’ve never seen one without abuse so I certainly cannot count on it. I think I will keep my children exposed to Tradition and devotion and away from abuse. Can the New Mass offer that?

I doubt it. I sincerely do.
 
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