The Old Mass

[deogratias]

I am definitely a TLM devotee but I do wish the “after Mass” extension of the Catholic Community were present. But in most places, you don’t really get to have a TLM Parish to establish that and often have to go to your home parish for the sacraments of reconciliation, baptism, confirmation, etc. But if you are going elsewhere each week to a TLM, you lose your connection to the people in your home parish and have no opportunity to have a real community with your fellow TLM folks outside of Mass

 

[Crusader]

aj10:

For me there are positives and negatives to both the old Mass and the new. In the traditional Latin Mass the positive is the reverence, an inner spiritual focus, a feeling of meeting Jesus Christ one-on-one, an encouragement for sincere participation in Confession on a regular basis. The negative is a rigidity, everyone looking at everyone else to see if they are being holy enough, an extreme political conservatism. In the new mass the positives are a feeling of openness, nice connections with other parishoners, sort of a ‘we are all sinners here’ attitide, parish members are willing to volunteer for activities. On the negative side is the liturgical experimentation (our priest wore a red Santa hat during Mass on Christmas), a “rules are made to be broken” gleefullness (my non-baptized husband was always being encouraged to receive communion because it “doesn’t matter” by an ex-priest), and a lack of reverence for the true presence (no kneeling, no genuflection, dumping a glass bowl of consecrated hosts into other small bowls like they were peanuts by a female eucharistic minister).

I love that I have the option to choose either one - and I have! God bless.

These emboldened qualities are certainly not unique to the Tridentine Mass. The Novus Ordo Mass celebrated each day on EWTN exhibits this better than any Tridentine Mass I have ever attended.

It would also be wrong to suggest that liturgical abuses are in any way unique to the Novus Ordo Mass. Any bozo who would wear a Santa’s hat during the Mass could do it during either the new or old Mass.

The bottom line is that BOTH the old and new Masses can be celebrated in a solemn, abuse-free manner. BOTH can also be celebrated in an extremely abusive manner as well. It’s not a function of the Mass, but a function of the celebrant and the others taking part.

 

[Crusader]

deogratias:

I am definitely a TLM devotee but I do wish the “after Mass” extension of the Catholic Community were present. But in most places, you don’t really get to have a TLM Parish to establish that and often have to go to your home parish for the sacraments of reconciliation, baptism, confirmation, etc. But if you are going elsewhere each week to a TLM, you lose your connection to the people in your home parish and have no opportunity to have a real community with your fellow TLM folks outside of Mass

That’s quite odd. Around here we would use the terms “Catholic parish” and “Catholics.” Your choice of words does nothing more than to breed more division…

 

[CD4]

You have made some really good points, aj. Can’t believe that your priest actually wore a Santa hat…:bigyikes: What was he thinking?

 

[CD4]

deogratias:

I am definitely a TLM devotee but I do wish the “after Mass” extension of the Catholic Community were present. But in most places, you don’t really get to have a TLM Parish to establish that and often have to go to your home parish for the sacraments of reconciliation, baptism, confirmation, etc. But if you are going elsewhere each week to a TLM, you lose your connection to the people in your home parish and have no opportunity to have a real community with your fellow TLM folks outside of Mass

Thiis is something I have been concerned about for a long time…It’s like trying to have your cake and eat it to …Sometimes it can’t be done. I don’t know what the solution is…

**I know that most people who prefer the TLM would also prefer to have a real parish life, too. But, many times they have to travel to a very different neighborhood, or town, that has nothing to do with them in real life…It’s a sort of in and out kind of thing that can be as ource of dissatisfaction. **

Most would love to belong to a TLM PARISH, rather than simply go to place where the TLM is offered…if the TILM is their true preference.

 

[Kotton]

Crusader:

That’s quite odd. Around here we would use the terms “Catholic parish” and “Catholics.” Your choice of words does nothing more than to breed more division…

I see the ‘choice of words’ as a defining of Catholic. These ‘terms’ help to understand WHY it is that ‘community’ is found lacking in traveling to a distant TLM. Where do you see 'breeding division? I see nit-poicking on your part.

Kotton

 

[deogratias]

That’s quite odd. Around here we would use the terms “Catholic parish” and “Catholics.” Your choice of words does nothing more than to breed more division…

---

Well that’s your opinion.

Try to see what I am saying rather than picking it apart. In this Diocese we have one TLM and it is celebrated at a parish that is central to the whole county. People travel from several different areas to attend this Mass because it is available for them and they wish to attend it. Okay

But the Bishop has said may attend the Mass weekly but we cannot form, at this time, a Latin Mass Community but may after a year consider it.

The Diocesan Office of Worship expects us to maintain all other ocmmunity activity with the exception of attendance of this Mass, at our home parishes.

It is difficult to attend Mass at a parish different than your home parish and still be a part of the home parish community. It is difficult to attend Mass every Sunday with the same people and not be afforded the benefit of having a community with them.

Now you may choose to pick apart my post on the words Catholic Parish and Home Parish and TLM Parish or whatever your gripe is but the essence of my post is that it would be more comfortable for most of us who attend this Mass if we were a full Community as is the case in some cities. When I lived in Colorado Springs there was a full Catholic Traditional Latin Mass Community which afforded daily Masses, Masses on Holy Days, and all the sacraments by the FFSP Priest. It was no less Catholic but it was definitely a TLM Community and its members were as cohesive as those who attend any other Catholic Parish.

Does that make it clearer?

 

[CD4]

This is VERY clear, and all should be able to understand it…What I don’t understand is why the your Bishop will not allow you to form a real community. What is his problem?

Boy, do I ever know what you are saying. It is of the utmost important for us to be able to function in the community we worship with…no matter whether we are speaking of the TLM or the NO. I will pray that your Bishop allows this to happen.

 

[deogratias]

Kotton - I am glad you udnerstood what I was trying to say and - division was just the opposite of what I was proposing but rather communion with a stable community of Catholics who incidentally prefer the Indult Mass.

 

[deogratias]

We just began having the Indult Mass in June, CD - and he wants to wait a year and then evaluate it’s success. So far attendance is stable and good. At this time I don’t find it too unreasonable but I am praying as are many of the 400 who attend regularly that we will eventually be considered a formal community and the the priest who is our liaison of the Diocesan Office of Worship has assured us that the Bishop is willing to let the Holy Spirit take this group where He will. He went on to say that the weekly Traditional Indult Mass may eventually result in teh development of a community or even into a separate parish but that none of this will be decided until after May 2005.

Keep us in your prayers.

 

[Crusader]

deogratias:

Well that’s your opinion.

Try to see what I am saying rather than picking it apart. In this Diocese we have one TLM and it is celebrated at a parish that is central to the whole county. People travel from several different areas to attend this Mass because it is available for them and they wish to attend it. Okay

But the Bishop has said may attend the Mass weekly but we cannot form, at this time, a Latin Mass Community but may after a year consider it.

The Diocesan Office of Worship expects us to maintain all other ocmmunity activity with the exception of attendance of this Mass, at our home parishes.

It is difficult to attend Mass at a parish different than your home parish and still be a part of the home parish community. It is difficult to attend Mass every Sunday with the same people and not be afforded the benefit of having a community with them.

Now you may choose to pick apart my post on the words Catholic Parish and Home Parish and TLM Parish or whatever your gripe is but the essence of my post is that it would be more comfortable for most of us who attend this Mass if we were a full Community as is the case in some cities. When I lived in Colorado Springs there was a full Catholic Traditional Latin Mass Community which afforded daily Masses, Masses on Holy Days, and all the sacraments by the FFSP Priest. It was no less Catholic but it was definitely a TLM Community and its members were as cohesive as those who attend any other Catholic Parish.

Does that make it clearer?

It dosen’t seem like a positive thing to define a community by the type of Mass it attends. Extremely devisive in my opinion.

Any parish that was fortunate enough to have the Tridentine Mass celebrated in its midst would be taking a wrong turn by calling and/or advertising itself as a “TLM Community”, etc.

 

[VincentO]

I understand both points of view here. It seems we could divide ourselves by defining who we are by the kind of Mass that we attend.

However, I understand that no one who prefers a particular version of the Mass wants to go to somewhere different to celebrate that Mass once a week while the rest of the community that generally goes with the Mass isn’t available from that Parish (at the moment)

How do we make sure that people who want to celebrate the TLM don’t get separated form the rest of the community while, and after they grow? I really don’t know.

It is important that people who do celebrate the TLM don’t SEE themselves as separate - but that’s quite often the impression I get on this forum. Not from everyone I have to say, but it’s still there

I don’t know the answer to this dilemma…I think it’s a blessing that people have the choice to worship as they please, but I do think it’s can breed divisive behaviour.

 

[Crusader]

VincentO:

I understand both points of view here. It seems we could divide ourselves by defining who we are by the kind of Mass that we attend.

However, I understand that no one who prefers a particular version of the Mass wants to go to somewhere different to celebrate that Mass once a week while the rest of the community that generally goes with the Mass isn’t available from that Parish (at the moment)

How do we make sure that people who want to celebrate the TLM don’t get separated form the rest of the community while, and after they grow? I really don’t know.

It is important that people who do celebrate the TLM don’t SEE themselves as separate - but that’s quite often the impression I get on this forum. Not from everyone I have to say, but it’s still there

I don’t know the answer to this dilemma…I think it’s a blessing that people have the choice to worship as they please, but I do think it’s can breed divisive behaviour.

Very true. I identify myself as a Catholic Christian. From there I can attend a Novus Ordo Mass, a Tridentine Mass, or an eastern Divine Liturgy.

I certainly don’t see anyone calling themselves a “Novus Ordo Catholic” or explaining that they belong to a “Novus Ordo Parish or Community.”

 

[Crusader]

Kotton:

I see the ‘choice of words’ as a defining of Catholic. These ‘terms’ help to understand WHY it is that ‘community’ is found lacking in traveling to a distant TLM. Where do you see 'breeding division? I see nit-poicking on your part.

Kotton

Pardon?

 

[JNB]

Crusader:

It dosen’t seem like a positive thing to define a community by the type of Mass it attends. Extremely devisive in my opinion.

Any parish that was fortunate enough to have the Tridentine Mass celebrated in its midst would be taking a wrong turn by calling and/or advertising itself as a “TLM Community”, etc.

Why is it devisive? There are some parishes in full union with Rome that are TLM only such as in Sacramento, Camden NJ and Richmond VA, and these parishes serve the need of the Traditional community. What is wrong with that? Do you want to force a liturgy down their throats?

Whats more, if the TLM any more devisive than a trad-lite NO, such as St. Agnes in St. Paul MN, Assumption Grotto in Detroit MI, Annucation in Houston, Holy Ghost in Denver and St. Mary of the Angels in Chicago IL?

I really do not understand you Crusader, not in the least.

 

[deogratias]

I really do not understand you Crusader, not in the least.

Nor do I -

.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Traditional to me, means more than what kind of Mass you attend. People who attend Latin Masses generally have more than a preference for the Latin Mass in common. I attend a Latin Mass only parish. The lifestyles of my fellow parishioners are more alike than parishioners from a NO parish. Families are bigger, most homeschool, teens are not into MTV, most families don’t even have a TV, etc…Now, if I want the support and feel of community, why wouldn’t I seek out like-minded people? That doesn’t mean we feel more Catholic than anyone else, we just have more common interests. How could I feel supported in a parish where homeschoolers are few, families for whatever reason are small, kids are into things I don’t want my kids around, etc… Yes, we are all Catholic, but lifestyles and how we raise our kids can be different.

 

[Crusader]

IrenkaJMJ:

Traditional to me, means more than what kind of Mass you attend. People who attend Latin Masses generally have more than a preference for the Latin Mass in common. I attend a Latin Mass only parish. The lifestyles of my fellow parishioners are more alike than parishioners from a NO parish. Families are bigger, most homeschool, teens are not into MTV, most families don’t even have a TV, etc…Now, if I want the support and feel of community, why wouldn’t I seek out like-minded people? That doesn’t mean we feel more Catholic than anyone else, we just have more common interests. How could I feel supported in a parish where homeschoolers are few, families for whatever reason are small, kids are into things I don’t want my kids around, etc… Yes, we are all Catholic, but lifestyles and how we raise our kids can be different.

You are illustrating my point perfectly. You are suggesting that “Latin Mass only parishs” are superior to other Catholic parishes. Not only are you generalizing and judging, you are dividing, and that’s sad.

Plenty of wonderful “Novus Ordo parishes” out there as well as “Latin Mass only parishs.” To even hint that the qualities you describe are available only in a “Latin Mass only parish” makes me understand to some degree why some bishops have not allowed the indult…

 

[Crusader]

JNB:

Why is it devisive? There are some parishes in full union with Rome that are TLM only such as in Sacramento, Camden NJ and Richmond VA, and these parishes serve the need of the Traditional community. What is wrong with that? Do you want to force a liturgy down their throats?

Whats more, if the TLM any more devisive than a trad-lite NO, such as St. Agnes in St. Paul MN, Assumption Grotto in Detroit MI, Annucation in Houston, Holy Ghost in Denver and St. Mary of the Angels in Chicago IL?

I really do not understand you Crusader, not in the least.

Please see prior posting.

 

[Crusader]

JNB:

Why is it devisive? There are some parishes in full union with Rome that are TLM only such as in Sacramento, Camden NJ and Richmond VA, and these parishes serve the need of the Traditional community. What is wrong with that? Do you want to force a liturgy down their throats?

Whats more, if the TLM any more devisive than a trad-lite NO, such as St. Agnes in St. Paul MN, Assumption Grotto in Detroit MI, Annucation in Houston, Holy Ghost in Denver and St. Mary of the Angels in Chicago IL?

I really do not understand you Crusader, not in the least.

Just what is a “Traditional community?” You capitalize the name as if it were some Church sanctioned rite…