The Old Mass

[IrenkaJMJ]

Crusader:

You are illustrating my point perfectly. You are suggesting that “Latin Mass only parishs” are superior to other Catholic parishes. Not only are you generalizing and judging, you are dividing, and that’s sad.

Plenty of wonderful “Novus Ordo parishes” out there as well as “Latin Mass only parishs.” To even hint that the qualities you describe are available only in a “Latin Mass only parish” makes me understand to some degree why some bishops have not allowed the indult…

I never said Latin Mass only were superior. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough for you. I can only go by MY personal experience in my location. There may be many wonderful NO parishes out there. But not where I live and am raising my family. I am not generalizing or judging. I am going by my personal experience where I live. Understand? Besides, hasn’t the Pope said that the Latin Mass should be available to whoever wants it(?), so I hope these bishops who aren’t allowing the indult in their diocese have a good reason…

 

[deogratias]

Yes, we are all Catholic, but lifestyles and how we raise our kids can be different

All you say is absolutely my experience also. Unfortunately some people are going to say that this means we think we are “more Catholic” than they are. But it is more than just the Mass as you pointed out. There are people with traditional values and who are traditionalists in every other sense of the word who go to NOM but in my past experiences, I did not always find them within the Parish community either. It is just normal to want to gather with like thinkers and those who like hanging around after Mass to discuss religion rather than other topics.

I guess us wanting it all is not acceptable to some but I think we should be allowed to be with Catholics with whom we can relate.
I imagine charismatics would feel equally lost in a Trad Mass only Parish. Or, how would the avg. (meaning majority) of Catholics feel if they moved to a town where the only Mass was a TLM, and where everyone was perhaps more conservative in dress, thought and action than they were. Lonely is what they would feel.

And it is a head in the sand attitude that anyone thinks that just by going t othe same Parish there is no division There is so much division in thought within the Church today that stabiity is what we seek - not division. But some cannot or will not be able to understand this because they are happy in their present element.

 

[deogratias]

You are illustrating my point perfectly. You are suggesting that “Latin Mass only parishs” are superior to other Catholic parishes. Not only are you generalizing and judging, you are dividing, and that’s sad.

No she is not suggesting any hint of superiority - she is saying “different” not “superior”. She is relating her experiences. I am relating mine and they are similar to hers and I have no idea where in the world she lives.

Not only are you generalizing and judging, you are dividing, and that’s sad.

I suggest that it is you who are generalizing by saying that we judge and divide - it is your objections that do the dividing and it is you who say there are "You say there are "Plenty of wonderful “Novus Ordo parishes” out there "

Define “wonderful” for me please.

And please name parishes and where is “out there”.

Have you lived “everywhere”? Have you experienced some of the abuses perhaps some of us have? No, I suggest you are the one doing the judging. We accept that you may be happy with your situation and we are not suggesting you change but you seem to hammer on and on about our right to attend a TLM and our desire to be with like-thinking folks.

 

[deogratias]

certainly don’t see anyone calling themselves a “Novus Ordo Catholic” or explaining that they belong to a “Novus Ordo Parish or Community.”

That is because this is the norm and not the exception. There are Eastern Rite Catholics who are just as Catholic as you and I but they have their own parish and their own rites. There are Opus Dei, Miles Jesu, Charistmatic Catholics - all Catholics - none meant to divide, each just wishing to worship within the allowable guidelines of Mother Church.

If is wrong, let the Church decide, not the rest of the board.

 

[deogratias]

Just what is a “Traditional community?” You capitalize the name as if it were some Church sanctioned rite…

---

I suppose for your benefit she could say, “serve the needs of those who prefer the Mass celebrated in accordance with the 1962 Missal as granted by Indult in Ecclesia Dei and who wish to receive the rest of the sacraments, Baptism, First Communion, Confession, Confirmation, Marriage and Burial from the priest(priests) who weekly and/or daily celebrate the Mass which they attend”.

Quite simply she was just trying to emphasize not divide - that there are those defined above that together make up a community of folks. We see each other at Mass, have coffee and chat afterwards just like you do at your parish. And for some of the lucky ones, they have their own Parish or Community within a Parish (some Bishops refer to a Latin Mass Community - same meaning, different nomenclature and ours said within a year we may have a full Latin Mass Community and perhaps, if the Holy Spirit takes this group in that direction, we will have our own parish).

You know it is for the opposite reasons than you say that the TLM is granted, i.e. to unite us and not divide us. We have 400 in our community (sorry if you don’t like the word, that’s your problem) now but probably 2000 folks could be coming here if the former Bishop had not been so stubborn in permitting the TLM. Those 2000 go t SSPX Masses and it is the desire and prayer of the Bishop and rest of us that they will be reabsorbed into the Catholic Church.

As for your opinion, Crusdader, I no longer care what your opinion is. Period. End of discussion as far as I am concerned.

 

[Crusader]

I suppose for your benefit she could say, “serve the needs of those who prefer the Mass celebrated in accordance with the 1962 Missal as granted by Indult in Ecclesia Dei and who wish to receive the rest of the sacraments, Baptism, First Communion, Confession, Confirmation, Marriage and Burial from the priest(priests) who weekly and/or daily celebrate the Mass which they attend”.

Quite simply she was just trying to emphasize not divide - that there are those defined above that together make up a community of folks. We see each other at Mass, have coffee and chat afterwards just like you do at your parish. And for some of the lucky ones, they have their own Parish or Community within a Parish (some Bishops refer to a Latin Mass Community - same meaning, different nomenclature and ours said within a year we may have a full Latin Mass Community and perhaps, if the Holy Spirit takes this group in that direction, we will have our own parish).

You know it is for the opposite reasons than you say that the TLM is granted, i.e. to unite us and not divide us. We have 400 in our community (sorry if you don’t like the word, that’s your problem) now but probably 2000 folks could be coming here if the former Bishop had not been so stubborn in permitting the TLM. Those 2000 go t SSPX Masses and it is the desire and prayer of the Bishop and rest of us that they will be reabsorbed into the Catholic Church.

**As for your opinion, Crusdader, I no longer care what your opinion is. Period. End of discussion as far as I am concerned. **

That’s OK, I’m certainly not offended.

It is very easy for me to see the damage caused to the Church through liturgical abuses and divisiveness from those who would define themselves as “progressive” or “spirit of Vatican II” Catholics.

It took me much longer to understand the divisiveness generated by those who label themselves as “traditional” or “TLM” Catholics.

The one thing I am certain of is that damage is caused to the Church in large part by both of these extreme elements.

In the end I think Catholic orthodoxy will prevail over both “traditionalism” and “spirit of Vatican II ism.”

 

[Crusader]

deogratias:

That is because this is the norm and not the exception. There are Eastern Rite Catholics who are just as Catholic as you and I but they have their own parish and their own rites. There are Opus Dei, Miles Jesu, Charistmatic Catholics - all Catholics - none meant to divide, each just wishing to worship within the allowable guidelines of Mother Church.

If is wrong, let the Church decide, not the rest of the board.

I attend a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parish on a regular basis so you can skip your lecture about “Eastern Rite Catholics.”

Are you suggesting that “Traditionalism” or “TLMism” is the same as say the Charismatic movement which is formally recognized by the Church?

Even mentioning “Traditionalism” or “TLMism” as some sort of movement sounds VERY devisive.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Crusader:

To even hint that the qualities you describe are available only in a “Latin Mass only parish” makes me understand to some degree why some bishops have not allowed the indult…

The Traditional Latin Rite of Mass is approved by the Pope, who told the Bishops to meet in a** “wide and generous way”** the needs of Catholics who are attached to it. **Incidentally, there are many Bishops who have disobeyed the Pope and disregarded his instruction, sometimes leaving faithful Catholics with few or no acceptable options. **

Isn’t that “devisive”?

 

[JNB]

Crusader:

I attend a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parish on a regular basis so you can skip your lecture about “Eastern Rite Catholics.”

Are you suggesting that “Traditionalism” or “TLMism” is the same as say the Charismatic movement which is formally recognized by the Church?

Even mentioning “Traditionalism” or “TLMism” as some sort of movement sounds VERY devisive.

May I ask WHY? I know some rad-trads can be and are annoying, but I understand why they have a fortress mentality. That said,. it takes alot of gall for you to say movments like the charismatic movment are recognised by the church, and the traditional movment is not, uhm HELLO!

First off, if the Traditional Movment was not recognised, there would be no FSSP, no Institute of Christ the King and other smaller orders that have emerged in the last few years. Yes it is a movment crusader, and I have no idea what YOUR PROBLEM is with giving Catholic who prefer the pre Vatican II mass their own parishes/communities. It has worked quite well in the dioceses that have allowed this.

 

[Crusader]

JNB:

May I ask WHY? I know some rad-trads can be and are annoying, but I understand why they have a fortress mentality. That said,. it takes alot of gall for you to say movments like the charismatic movment are recognised by the church, and the traditional movment is not, uhm HELLO!

First off, if the Traditional Movment was not recognised, there would be no FSSP, no Institute of Christ the King and other smaller orders that have emerged in the last few years. Yes it is a movment crusader, and I have no idea what YOUR PROBLEM is with giving Catholic who prefer the pre Vatican II mass their own parishes/communities. It has worked quite well in the dioceses that have allowed this.

There is no “Traditional Movement” within the Catholic Church. Ecclesia Dei certainly makes no mention of such a movement.

While the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter as one example is most certainly a wonderful (and recognized) society within the Church, it makes no mention of being part of what you term a “Traditional Movement” within the Church.

I personally believe it’s very appealing and healthy to allow the Tridentine Mass at any Catholic parish that has the interest and commitment. Simply follow what the Holy Father has given us via Ecclesia Dei. On the other hand I believe it’s horribly devisive to restrict some parishes to the Tridentine Mass. Even bit as bad as those bishops who limit some parishes today to the Novus Ordo Mass…

In the west we should have Catholic parishes, not “TLM only parishes” or “NO only parishes.” That’s not only foolish, it’s ultimately pernicious …

 

[Crusader]

IrenkaJMJ:

The Traditional Latin Rite of Mass is approved by the Pope, who told the Bishops to meet in a** “wide and generous way”** the needs of Catholics who are attached to it. **Incidentally, there are many Bishops who have disobeyed the Pope and disregarded his instruction, sometimes leaving faithful Catholics with few or no acceptable options. **

Isn’t that “devisive”?

It’s certainly wrong for bishops not to follow the direction of Ecclesia Dei.

On the other hand if following Ecclesia Dei will result in “TLM-only parishes” then I can actually see why some bishops act(ed) as they do.

The focus should be on Catholic parishes who offer both the new and old Masses where interest and support exists…

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Crusader:

It’s certainly wrong for bishops not to follow the direction of Ecclesia Dei.

On the other hand if following Ecclesia Dei will result in “TLM-only parishes” then I can actually see why some bishops act(ed) as they do.

The focus should be on Catholic parishes who offer both the new and old Masses where interest and support exists…

The only problem with that is that there are orders that only do the Latin Mass. The Institute of Christ the King is one example. It’s a fairly new order comparatively speaking. They have the full endorsement and support of the Holy Father.
institute-christ-king.org/

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

IrenkaJMJ:

The only problem with that is that there are orders that only do the Latin Mass. The Institute of Christ the King is one example. It’s a fairly new order comparatively speaking. They have the full endorsement and support of the Holy Father.
institute-christ-king.org/

I do not believe that this is true.

A couple of years ago there was a stink becuase some in the FSSP wanted to not allow their priests the right to celebrate the NO Mass, which is the normative Eucharistic Liturgy of the Latin Church. Those who had issues with this did not like FSSP priests con-celebrating the Liturgy on Holy Thursday with the bishops of the diocese were they were serving.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

ByzCath:

I do not believe that this is true.

A couple of years ago there was a stink becuase some in the FSSP wanted to not allow their priests the right to celebrate the NO Mass, which is the normative Eucharistic Liturgy of the Latin Church. Those who had issues with this did not like FSSP priests con-celebrating the Liturgy on Holy Thursday with the bishops of the diocese were they were serving.

Yes it is true. I attend a parish that is under the auspices of the Institute of Christ the King. All masses are in Latin. All with the approval and complete support of the bishop. The bishop came to do confirmation and also said mass in Latin.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

IrenkaJMJ:

Yes it is true. I attend a parish that is under the auspices of the Institute of Christ the King. All masses are in Latin. All with the approval and complete support of the bishop. The bishop came to do confirmation and also said mass in Latin.

While they only celebrate the Trad Latin Mass this in no way proves that they are not allowed to celebrate the NO Mass.

You are drawing a conclusion without all the information.

For example, a friend of mine only speaks english when I see him. Does this mean that he can not speak Arabic? No, he just does not do so in public.

A religious order nor a bishop, can remove the right to celebrate the Mass by the normative rite. They can stop the celebration of the Indult but not the other way around.

If your parish is run staffed by a priest from the Institute of Christ the King order, then during Holy Week, when all the priests con-celebrate the Liturgy with the bishop at his cathedral, he would be con-celebrating the NO Mass.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Canonical Erection Most recently, St. Mary has been canonically erected into a public Oratory, which means it has been given to the entire care of the Institute, whose Prior General appoints the rector of the Oratory which has received the privilege of all the ecclesiastical records. This provision, graciously taken by Bishop Doran, renders it possible to all the faithful who wish the traditional Latin Rite not only to participate in the celebration of the Holy Mass at St. Mary but, also, to receive all the necessary sacraments by the priests of the Institute in the Traditional Rite. The consolidation of the presence of the Institute in the Rockford Diocese is due to the confidence that Bishop Doran has developed over the years and will foster greatly the positive development of the Latin Mass community at St. Mary Oratory. For the future, we foresee a continuation of the present growth of the Latin Mass Community, and we are sure that many vocations will come to the Institute from the numerous families attending Mass at our church.

I didn’t mean to imply they can’t, just that they don’t. Concerning Holy Week, I honestly don’t know what happens. Go to the link if you want more info on the Institute.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

IrenkaJMJ:

I didn’t mean to imply they can’t, just that they don’t. Concerning Holy Week, I honestly don’t know what happens. Go to the link if you want more info on the Institute.

My point to Crusader was that TLM only parishes do exist. All with full approval of His Holiness, John Paul II. Just to clarify, Byz.

 

[JNB]

Crusader:

There is no “Traditional Movement” within the Catholic Church. Ecclesia Dei certainly makes no mention of such a movement.

While the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter as one example is most certainly a wonderful (and recognized) society within the Church, it makes no mention of being part of what you term a “Traditional Movement” within the Church.

I personally believe it’s very appealing and healthy to allow the Tridentine Mass at any Catholic parish that has the interest and commitment. Simply follow what the Holy Father has given us via Ecclesia Dei. On the other hand I believe it’s horribly devisive to restrict some parishes to the Tridentine Mass. Even bit as bad as those bishops who limit some parishes today to the Novus Ordo Mass…

In the west we should have Catholic parishes, not “TLM only parishes” or “NO only parishes.” That’s not only foolish, it’s ultimately pernicious …

Stop playing games Crusader, and stop drinking from the I Shawn McIlhenny well. The people who prefer trhe TLM should have their needs met, and providing a parish for them will meet their needs. These people like the TLM, and no matter what you and your ilk may try to force down their throats, they will still prefer the TLM. At parishes I have seen that offer both the 62 and 70 missals, the parishoners who go to the TLM and orther parishoners who go to the NO do not interact much with each other anyways, thats just human nature.

You and your ilk are so concerned about divsion, but TLM only parishes work in the few diocese that have allowed it, it is only rightful that those who prefer the old mass have their spiritual needs met. Again crusader I have no clue where you are coming from other than you drank too much from the modernist well and have been too taken in by the likes of I Shawn McIlhenny, Stephen Hand and company.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

IrenkaJMJ:

My point to Crusader was that TLM only parishes do exist. All with full approval of His Holiness, John Paul II. Just to clarify, Byz.

:ehh:

I get that now…

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

But, with the Idult issued by the Holy Father, of course the Holy Father approves of this, that really doesn’t matter. What matters is the local bishop. It is up to the local bishop to approve or disapprove of it.

That is your parish would not exist without the local bishop’s approval.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

I get that now…

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

But, with the Idult issued by the Holy Father, of course the Holy Father approves of this, that really doesn’t matter. What matters is the local bishop. It is up to the local bishop to approve or disapprove of it.

That is your parish would not exist without the local bishop’s approval.
[/quote]

I am aware of this! And thankful!

This is in our leaflet every Sunday:
“Welcome to St. Mary’s Oratory and the traditional Latin Mass offered by the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, with the gracious permission of Bishop Thomas G. Doran. We are pleased to have you join us…etc…”