The Old Testament is unfathomable...

[distracted]

I’m having a hard time with some of the stuff in the Old Testament…

like how God supposedly told the Israelites to slaughter… all those towns and cities… and kill EVERYONE… even young children…

In a way i u/stand cuz if the children wer allowed to survive they would later find out that their parents had been killed by the I’s … and they would rebel… and i realize that death is not the ultimate… uh… disaster, especially since God can deal with us - and does deal w/ us - after death… It is not a problem for him to save people after death… as Catholics have always believed…

but still… it seems that life was incredibly cheap in the Old Testament… lots of revenge… lots of wars and bloodshed… lots of innocents slaughtered… and God seemed to approve of it… (?)

i can u/stand why people claim that the Bible was written by men (only)…

****and as i have said before, if the Bible was all i had to go by …

I would NOT be a Christian…****

ok… maybe i would be a kinda Christian… but certainly not a devout one

Thankfully we DON’t just have the Bible… We Catholics have the Church…

Please help me (and others) to understand a little better…

i also know about how God wanted to wipe out idolatry and that He used the Israelites’ take-overs of their land to punish their wickedness… but if He didn’t reveal Himself to those other nations… well, kinda dont get it… why they should have been… killed so the Israelites could have their land… etc i mean it seems they were sinners out of total ignorance more than… malice or whatever… and i also realize that their idolatry was virtually worshping satan… though, agan, seems it was rather unintentional ??

Why do we Christians dismiss so much of the Old T?

seems that we must accept all or none…

 

[bnbkaine]

Jeff Cavins does a really excellent Bible study program and he covers the story of the Old Testament. If you read it thoroughly, God instructs the Israelites to destroy all the people of certain towns, all the livestock, all the altars because they have turned so far away from Him. They would immolate their children, were sexually deviant (before anyone throws a fit, I just mean that God’s purpose of sex was given to Adam and Eve and those who do not follow that, by definition, deviate from it), and worship other gods. He instructed the Israelites to destroy them so that those practices would not be followed by the Israelites. More often then not though, the Israelites would not follow through and would eventually incorporate practices of those pagan religions into their own.

These are not innocent people that are just minding their own business. And there were a few people who were spared (like Rahab, a prostitute) because they did amend their lives before the Israelites came upon them. But in her story, she tells the spies that came to her that the people have heard the stories about God delivering the Israelites out of Egypt (40 years earlier) and they basically don’t care and are not worried about any judgement from God.

I don’t think we dismiss the OT; in fact, wiser minds than mine have said something along the lines of “The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.”

 

[FightingFat]

I’m having a hard time with some of the stuff in the Old Testament…

Sounds familiar!! I agree with bnbkaine about Jeff Cavins. I solved my problems with the OT by reading two books

amazon.com/Reading-Old-Testament-Lawrence-Boadt/dp/0809126311

and

amazon.com/Consuming-Fire-Catholic-Guide-Testament/dp/1592765971/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273269465&sr=1-2

I also loved:

amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Institutions-Biblical-Resource/dp/080284278X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273269514&sr=1-1

I figure that people far cleverer than I am have found this stuff convincing for two thousand years. I owe it to myself to try and find out about it before I dismiss it as rubbish. What I have found out has inspired me and changed my life forever…And myself into a proper Catholic (at least I hope!)

 

[distracted]

Jeff Cavins does a really excellent Bible study program and he covers the story of the Old Testament. If you read it thoroughly, God instructs the Israelites to destroy all the people of certain towns, all the livestock, all the altars because they have turned so far away from Him. They would immolate their children, were sexually deviant (before anyone throws a fit, I just mean that God’s purpose of sex was given to Adam and Eve and those who do not follow that, by definition, deviate from it), and worship other gods. He instructed the Israelites to destroy them so that those practices would not be followed by the Israelites. More often then not though, the Israelites would not follow through and would eventually incorporate practices of those pagan religions into their own.

These are not innocent people that are just minding their own business. And there were a few people who were spared (like Rahab, a prostitute) because they did amend their lives before the Israelites came upon them. But in her story, she tells the spies that came to her that the people have heard the stories about God delivering the Israelites out of Egypt (40 years earlier) and they basically don’t care and are not worried about any judgement from God.

I don’t think we dismiss the OT; in fact, wiser minds than mine have said something along the lines of “The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.”

thanks… that was very helpful…

i think part of my problem in totally accepting certn things is that these days everyone acts … well, to put it briefly… very PC about stuff… I mean we must be SO tolerant about this… and tolerant about that… so tolerant tht… Well, i am reminded of that saying… “Be open minded but not so open-minded your brains fall out”

& actually its more serious than even your brains falling out…

its about losing your connection with God who is absolutely holy… so holy that to turn away from Him thro sin… particulary the sin of idolatry… means you are lost… dead… and it will take a lot to get you saved… (Jesus… the Crucifixion)

thats what bugs me about OnceSavedAlwaysSvd… If it took all that… the Cross… to save you from sin… why would you essentially condone sin or give it a free pass in your lives… just because at one point in time you “accepted Jesus into your heart”? How is it accepting Jesus when you don’t do or try to do everything He says? not to mention the fact that nowhere in the bible does it say you can do whatever you want and still be saved… says just the opposite… weird…

no comprendo…

 

[distracted]

Sounds familiar!! I agree with bnbkaine about Jeff Cavins. I solved my problems with the OT by reading two books

amazon.com/Reading-Old-Testament-Lawrence-Boadt/dp/0809126311

and

amazon.com/Consuming-Fire-Catholic-Guide-Testament/dp/1592765971/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273269465&sr=1-2

I also loved:

amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Institutions-Biblical-Resource/dp/080284278X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273269514&sr=1-1

I figure that people far cleverer than I am have found this stuff convincing for two thousand years. I owe it to myself to try and find out about it before I dismiss it as rubbish. What I have found out has inspired me and changed my life forever…And myself into a proper Catholic (at least I hope!)

thank you…

but it ticks me off that i have never been able to find out how to order a book from some of those companies… cuz i dont have a credit card… .hate the *&^%$# things…

i tried once b4 to buy a book at amazon… couldn’t do it… or at least couldn’t figure it out and couldn’t get in touch w/ anyone to find out how i could send MO or whatever… that was a long time ago… and maybe i was in a … distracted mood that day… or something but… never tried again…

 

[FightingFat]

thank you…

but it ticks me off that i have never been able to find out how to order a book from some of those companies… cuz i dont have a credit card… .hate the *&^%$# things…

i tried once b4 to buy a book at amazon… couldn’t do it… or at least couldn’t figure it out and couldn’t get in touch w/ anyone to find out how i could send MO or whatever… that was a long time ago… and maybe i was in a … distracted mood that day… or something but… never tried again…

Library?

The basic premise is to remember what the Church teaches us about Sacred Scripture: The Sensus Plenior

You might find the teaching of Vatican II on the Old Testament scriptures useful have you ever read that?

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Chapter IV is on the Old Testament, but I would recommend you read and re-read it all. It’s a very dense document!

 

[bnbkaine]

thanks… that was very helpful…

i think part of my problem in totally accepting certn things is that these days everyone acts … well, to put it briefly… very PC about stuff… I mean we must be SO tolerant about this… and tolerant about that… so tolerant tht… Well, i am reminded of that saying… “Be open minded but not so open-minded your brains fall out”

& actually its more serious than even your brains falling out…

its about losing your connection with God who is absolutely holy… so holy that to turn away from Him thro sin… particulary the sin of idolatry… means you are lost… dead… and it will take a lot to get you saved… (Jesus… the Crucifixion)

thats what bugs me about OnceSavedAlwaysSvd… If it took all that… the Cross… to save you from sin… why would you essentially condone sin or give it a free pass in your lives… just because at one point in time you “accepted Jesus into your heart”? How is it accepting Jesus when you don’t do or try to do everything He says? not to mention the fact that nowhere in the bible does it say you can do whatever you want and still be saved… says just the opposite… weird…

no comprendo…

For me, a “rule to live by” that helps me when I think of all the false gods that people worship today like sex, money, etc. (and there is nothing new under the son- people have turned away from God for these reasons and others) is that, as children of God, we are in the world, not of the world.

It is not our place to judge whether or not people are living their lives the way that God wants them too. There could be people out there who truly accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and continue to live their lives according to His word. I told my Jewish cousin that Catholics know that we aren’t the only ones that are going to Heaven. We just know that we are the straightest and easiest path.

I am not advocating extreme compliance, but the Church has given us the spiritual works of mercy:
The spiritual works of mercy are:

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.

It doesn’t say, “Beat people over the head until they convert.”

 

[distracted]

For me, a “rule to live by” that helps me when I think of all the false gods that people worship today like sex, money, etc. (and there is nothing new under the son- people have turned away from God for these reasons and others) is that, as children of God, we are in the world, not of the world.

It is not our place to judge whether or not people are living their lives the way that God wants them too. There could be people out there who truly accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and continue to live their lives according to His word. I told my Jewish cousin that Catholics know that we aren’t the only ones that are going to Heaven. We just know that we are the straightest and easiest path.

I am not advocating extreme compliance, but the Church has given us the spiritual works of mercy:
The spiritual works of mercy are:

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.

It doesn’t say, “Beat people over the head until they convert.”

and who might be doing that?

 

[mo2169]

As someone said in a previous post, the OT deals with much of God’s people, “The People of Israel” being WITH God (therefore the good times), and turning AWAY from God (therefore the wars, battles, killings, etc,etc…)

Once they turned away from God, the Bible clearly states that: God sent the (Assyrians,Babylonians, Romans) to invade and take over their land because His people were in much sin.

As the OT mentions (through Prophets), God’s overall plan was to send His Only Son Jesus, “The Christ/Messiah” to save us from sins and give us a whole new way to live by.
The OT is still very important in order for us to remember the things that happened when we turn away from our Creator and Father.
But the NT becomes our new direction, through God Himself in Jesus Christ.

At first, I also found the OT very difficult to grasp. It seemed very negative comparing with a very positive and loving NT.

Hope this helps you out.
God bless…

 

[distracted]

As someone said in a previous post, the OT deals with much of God’s people, “The People of Israel” being WITH God (therefore the good times), and turning AWAY from God (therefore the wars, battles, killings, etc,etc…)

Once they turned away from God, the Bible clearly states that: God sent the (Assyrians,Babylonians, Romans) to invade and take over their land because His people were in much sin.

As the OT mentions (through Prophets), God’s overall plan was to send His Only Son Jesus, “The Christ/Messiah” to save us from sins and give us a whole new way to live by.
The OT is still very important in order for us to remember the things that happened when we turn away from our Creator and Father.
But the NT becomes our new direction, through God Himself in Jesus Christ.

At first, I also found the OT very difficult to grasp. It seemed very negative comparing with a very positive and loving NT.

Hope this helps you out.
God bless…

what you say is the reason i wonder about the Old Test… i accept it but… all that bloodshed !! Yikes!

and why was Solomon and others allowed to have numerous wives? Why didn’t God punish THAT??? He punished David stealing that man’s wife… but what about having more than one wife? IT seems that since he was king and had so many wives, he probably thought that since God condoned such things… that man’s wife was as good as his also… so why the big deal when … Ok, i know adultery is worse than fornication but they are both very sinful… and promiscuity is even more sinful…

i dont get that…

 

[Joshua27]

“Be fruitful and multiply…fill and subdue the earth.”

Even if we assume that “Adam and Eve” was just a story, we still must realize that there weren’t as many people on earth as there is today, so “being fruitful” must also be practical.

The tradition of taking a concubine originated with Abraham as his wife was baren and could not bare him an offspring…so she gave her maidservant to him to produce an offspring. There was a practical reason for this action, not a self-gratifying one, as Abraham still had one wife, but her maidservant was an additional means of continuine Abraham’s family. After his wife eventually bore a son, she died, and Abraham took another wife and bore more seed.

…

In Jacob’s time, he desired Rachel as his wife (the youngest of Laban’s daughters) and not Leah, but Leah - the firstborn - had not yet married (and didn’t look as if she would) so Jacob was told to take them both if he wanted Rachel. Again, this was a practical means to an end…not some opportunity for self-gratification. Jacob wife was Rachel, but he now also had Leah to continue his family.

David also had concubines, but notice that it wasn’t a sin to take another woman as a concubine unless she belonged to another man, like in the case of his soldier’s (Uriah’s) wife, Bathsheba. This was a sin because David took her because of lust (self-gratification).

Today (unfortunately) we view women as an objects of lust (vessels for self-gratification), especially since society is no longer bound by the laws of procreation…so taking multiple women as wives today would only serve to fuel our selfish desire. It wouldn’t be for practical reasons, especially since the world is successfully populated.

---

As far as killing, “killing” isn’t a sin (which is incorrectly defined in the ten commandments), but more specifically “murder” is a sin. To be guilty of a capital crime - even in biblical times - requires the death penalty (eye for an eye)…which is EXACTLY why Christ HAD to die for all of us, as He took on our guilt for our crime. God is the same always (and he is fair), so even other foreign nations were subject to the same law.

Finally, recall Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee [Serpent] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; He shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We know that the serpent is Satan, but from this passage we must realize that Satan ALSO has been begetting “seed” for as long as the woman [Eve, and her daughters] has. In fact, often we read that “this group” or “that group” is commanded by God to stay away from the Canaanites (seed of Cain The Murderer) and NOT to take for them wives, as these were the generation (begettal) of Satan (the “original” Murderer).

If you re-read the old testament you’ll notice that at every turn, God warned his seed not to mingle with the Seed of Satan (Cain’s seed), while Satan’s strategy was always to infiltrate and corrupt from the inside.

• Ishmael (the first son of Abraham) born from a Canaanite > Egyptians (Satan’s seed)
• Medan & Midian (sons of Abraham) born from second wife > Palestinians
• Esau took a Canaanite wife (Satan’s seed)
• Solomon took Canaanite wives (Satan’s seed) > led to idolatry & captivity of kingdom
• Nethinim People (Cain’s Seed) return with “House of Judah” back to Judah after captivity…
• Assyrians (Cain’s seed) migrate north with captive “House of Israel”

The Seed of Satan will always be the enemy of the Seed of Woman (God’s Seed), so God never hesitated to purge the land of the corrupt seed whenever he could: man, woman or child…and when His own seed became corrupt (mixed with the seed of Satan), he purged them until the corrupt seed died away (for example, the Israelites wondering 40 years in the wilderness until all the corrupt Egyptian idolators died).

 

[distracted]

“Be fruitful and multiply…fill and subdue the earth.”

Even if we assume that “Adam and Eve” was just a story, we still must realize that there weren’t as many people on earth as there is today, so “being fruitful” must also be practical.

The tradition of taking a concubine originated with Abraham as his wife was baren and could not bare him an offspring…so she gave her maidservant to him to produce an offspring. There was a practical reason for this action, not a self-gratifying one, as Abraham still had one wife, but her maidservant was an additional means of continuine Abraham’s family. After his wife eventually bore a son, she died, and Abraham took another wife and bore more seed.

…

In Jacob’s time, he desired Rachel as his wife (the youngest of Laban’s daughters) and not Leah, but Leah - the firstborn - had not yet married (and didn’t look as if she would) so Jacob was told to take them both if he wanted Rachel. Again, this was a practical means to an end…not some opportunity for self-gratification. Jacob wife was Rachel, but he now also had Leah to continue his family.

David also had concubines, but notice that it wasn’t a sin to take another woman as a concubine unless she belonged to another man, like in the case of his soldier’s (Uriah’s) wife, Bathsheba. This was a sin because David took her because of lust (self-gratification).

Today (unfortunately) we view women as an objects of lust (vessels for self-gratification), especially since society is no longer bound by the laws of procreation…so taking multiple women as wives today would only serve to fuel our selfish desire. It wouldn’t be for practical reasons, especially since the world is successfully populated.

---

As far as killing, “killing” isn’t a sin (which is incorrectly defined in the ten commandments), but more specifically “murder” is a sin. To be guilty of a capital crime - even in biblical times - requires the death penalty (eye for an eye)…which is EXACTLY why Christ HAD to die for all of us, as He took on our guilt for our crime. God is the same always (and he is fair), so even other foreign nations were subject to the same law.

Finally, recall Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee [Serpent] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; He shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We know that the serpent is Satan, but from this passage we must realize that Satan ALSO has been begetting “seed” for as long as the woman [Eve, and her daughters] has. In fact, often we read that “this group” or “that group” is commanded by God to stay away from the Canaanites (seed of Cain The Murderer) and NOT to take for them wives, as these were the generation (begettal) of Satan (the “original” Murderer).

If you re-read the old testament you’ll notice that at every turn, God warned his seed not to mingle with the Seed of Satan (Cain’s seed), while Satan’s strategy was always to infiltrate and corrupt from the inside.

• Ishmael (the first son of Abraham) born from a Canaanite > Egyptians (Satan’s seed)
• Medan & Midian (sons of Abraham) born from second wife > Palestinians
• Esau took a Canaanite wife (Satan’s seed)
• Solomon took Canaanite wives (Satan’s seed) > led to idolatry & captivity of kingdom
• Nethinim People (Cain’s Seed) return with “House of Judah” back to Judah after captivity…
• Assyrians (Cain’s seed) migrate north with captive “House of Israel”

The Seed of Satan will always be the enemy of the Seed of Woman (God’s Seed), so God never hesitated to purge the land of the corrupt seed whenever he could: man, woman or child…and when His own seed became corrupt (mixed with the seed of Satan), he purged them until the corrupt seed died away (for example, the Israelites wondering 40 years in the wilderness until all the corrupt Egyptian idolators died).

wow… never knew all this… Where did you get it?

Is that why its called Canaan?

how do you know all those others you mention are from Cain’s seed? This is not in the Word, is it? I’ve read most of the OT books and never seen any mention of it.

Also, did you know that Martin Luther’s father is supposed to have murdered someone? He left town … and it was never proved… but a lot of people thought he was guilty as h–

hmmm :coffeeread:

 

[distracted]

“Be fruitful and multiply…fill and subdue the earth.”

Even if we assume that “Adam and Eve” was just a story, we still must realize that there weren’t as many people on earth as there is today, so “being fruitful” must also be practical.

The tradition of taking a concubine originated with Abraham as his wife was baren and could not bare him an offspring…so she gave her maidservant to him to produce an offspring. There was a practical reason for this action, not a self-gratifying one, as Abraham still had one wife, but her maidservant was an additional means of continuine Abraham’s family. After his wife eventually bore a son, she died, and Abraham took another wife and bore more seed.

…

In Jacob’s time, he desired Rachel as his wife (the youngest of Laban’s daughters) and not Leah, but Leah - the firstborn - had not yet married (and didn’t look as if she would) so Jacob was told to take them both if he wanted Rachel. Again, this was a practical means to an end…not some opportunity for self-gratification. Jacob wife was Rachel, but he now also had Leah to continue his family.

David also had concubines, but notice that it wasn’t a sin to take another woman as a concubine unless she belonged to another man, like in the case of his soldier’s (Uriah’s) wife, Bathsheba. This was a sin because David took her because of lust (self-gratification).

Today (unfortunately) we view women as an objects of lust (vessels for self-gratification), especially since society is no longer bound by the laws of procreation…so taking multiple women as wives today would only serve to fuel our selfish desire. It wouldn’t be for practical reasons, especially since the world is successfully populated.

---

As far as killing, “killing” isn’t a sin (which is incorrectly defined in the ten commandments), but more specifically “murder” is a sin. To be guilty of a capital crime - even in biblical times - requires the death penalty (eye for an eye)…which is EXACTLY why Christ HAD to die for all of us, as He took on our guilt for our crime. God is the same always (and he is fair), so even other foreign nations were subject to the same law.

Finally, recall Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee [Serpent] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; He shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We know that the serpent is Satan, but from this passage we must realize that Satan ALSO has been begetting “seed” for as long as the woman [Eve, and her daughters] has. In fact, often we read that “this group” or “that group” is commanded by God to stay away from the Canaanites (seed of Cain The Murderer) and NOT to take for them wives, as these were the generation (begettal) of Satan (the “original” Murderer).

If you re-read the old testament you’ll notice that at every turn, God warned his seed not to mingle with the Seed of Satan (Cain’s seed), while Satan’s strategy was always to infiltrate and corrupt from the inside.

• Ishmael (the first son of Abraham) born from a Canaanite > Egyptians (Satan’s seed)
• Medan & Midian (sons of Abraham) born from second wife > Palestinians
• Esau took a Canaanite wife (Satan’s seed)
• Solomon took Canaanite wives (Satan’s seed) > led to idolatry & captivity of kingdom
• Nethinim People (Cain’s Seed) return with “House of Judah” back to Judah after captivity…
• Assyrians (Cain’s seed) migrate north with captive “House of Israel”

The Seed of Satan will always be the enemy of the Seed of Woman (God’s Seed), so God never hesitated to purge the land of the corrupt seed whenever he could: man, woman or child…and when His own seed became corrupt (mixed with the seed of Satan), he purged them until the corrupt seed died away (for example, the Israelites wondering 40 years in the wilderness until all the corrupt Egyptian idolators died).

what you say about multiple wives still doesn’t suffice to explain why God would allow polygamy in one generation but not another.

There is no way in h .I would marry a man who already had a wife. Heck, i dont even wnat to marry one who is single!!

men are strange creatures to me… never been able to understand them… and from what I’ve seen/experienced… don’t want to try:hypno:

 

[Joshua27]

wow… never knew all this… Where did you get it?

Is that why its called Canaan?

how do you know all those others you mention are from Cain’s seed? This is not in the Word, is it? I’ve read most of the OT books and never seen any mention of it.

Not all those I’ve mentioned were Cain’s seed but all mentioned were definitely of Satan’s seed…Cain wasn’t the only progenitor. I wanted to give examples to support that Satan has seed here.

This is mostly found in the bible, specifically Genesis and Chronicles. If you reread it, take care to pay special attention to names of people, names of the land (where they build cities) and the promises God makes with certain people…like, we assume (or at least I used to assume) that the promise given to Abraham; that he would be “the father of many nations” meant only the 12 tribes of Israel, but “NO”…The promise meant many “different” nations (as Israel is only one nation).

• For example: Take Abraham’s son Medan (Genesis 25:2 & 1 Chronicles 1:32)…Medan found land and eventually multiplied into the Kingdom of Medes & Persia (Daniel 5:28)…and we know from recorded history that the Palestinians are descendants from Persia. But Isaac (and subsequently Jacob/Israel) also came from Abraham. Two different nations.
• God also promised Ismael (Abraham first born, though bondwoman Hagar) that he would be a great nation since he was of Abraham’s seed. He took a woman from Egypt (Genesis 21:8-21) and bore 12 sons (Genesis 25:9-18)

---

The Internet really helps to cross-reference books of the bible by matching keywords to verses.

Also, did you know that Martin Luther’s father is supposed to have murdered someone? He left town … and it was never proved… but a lot of people thought he was guilty as h–

hmmm :coffeeread:

I did not know that…I’m going to further research it.

what you say about multiple wives still doesn’t suffice to explain why God would allow polygamy in one generation but not another.

There is no way in h .I would marry a man who already had a wife. Heck, i dont even wnat to marry one who is single!!

men are strange creatures to me… never been able to understand them… and from what I’ve seen/experienced… don’t want to try:hypno:

Lol. Well we’re not all bad.

And I don’t think the issue is polygamy, but survival. I can’t explain why God was silent on this issue, but there has always been more women than men on is planet (that’s science for ya), even with humanity’s (then) small numbers. Back then the only way for a woman to stay alive was through the care of a man: father, brother, husband (as women were not yet self-sufficient or educated like in today’s world).

The bible often speaks of women staying with their fathers for a majority of their lives because there just weren’t enough men around to take care of them (especially because of the frequent bloody wars)…but what would happen to these women if - or when - their father died? The only options were to join another man’s camp, either as a prostitute, handmaiden, slavewoman…So it was VERY important to fathers to give their daughters to men just out of love and a concern for their survival (and the continuance of their bloodline), even if it would mean the man would have multiple wives/concubines.

So I can only assume that - back then - the primary thing God wanted to preserve was the lives of his (female) seed.

 

[distracted]

Not all those I’ve mentioned were Cain’s seed but all mentioned were definitely of Satan’s seed…Cain wasn’t the only progenitor. I wanted to give examples to support that Satan has seed here.

This is mostly found in the bible, specifically Genesis and Chronicles. If you reread it, take care to pay special attention to names of people, names of the land (where they build cities) and the promises God makes with certain people…like, we assume (or at least I used to assume) that the promise given to Abraham; that he would be “the father of many nations” meant only the 12 tribes of Israel, but “NO”…The promise meant many “different” nations (as Israel is only one nation).

• For example: Take Abraham’s son Medan (Genesis 25:2 & 1 Chronicles 1:32)…Medan found land and eventually multiplied into the Kingdom of Medes & Persia (Daniel 5:28)…and we know from recorded history that the Palestinians are descendants from Persia. But Isaac (and subsequently Jacob/Israel) also came from Abraham. Two different nations.
• God also promised Ismael (Abraham first born, though bondwoman Hagar) that he would be a great nation since he was of Abraham’s seed. He took a woman from Egypt (Genesis 21:8-21) and bore 12 sons (Genesis 25:9-18)

---

The Internet really helps to cross-reference books of the bible by matching keywords to verses.

I did not know that…I’m going to further research it.

Lol. Well we’re not all bad.

And I don’t think the issue is polygamy, but survival. I can’t explain why God was silent on this issue, but there has always been more women than men on is planet (that’s science for ya), even with humanity’s (then) small numbers. Back then the only way for a woman to stay alive was through the care of a man: father, brother, husband (as women were not yet self-sufficient or educated like in today’s world).

The bible often speaks of women staying with their fathers for a majority of their lives because there just weren’t enough men around to take care of them (especially because of the frequent bloody wars)…but what would happen to these women if - or when - their father died? The only options were to join another man’s camp, either as a prostitute, handmaiden, slavewoman…So it was VERY important to fathers to give their daughters to men just out of love and a concern for their survival (and the continuance of their bloodline), even if it would mean the man would have multiple wives/concubines.

So I can only assume that - back then - the primary thing God wanted to preserve was the lives of his (female) seed.

that makes sense… but still… seems very unfair to women… I would NOT want to be married to a man who is sleeping w/ someone else… I would just have to be his celibate wife… cook his food… clean his house… but he isn’t coming near my body…

 

[distracted]

I’m sure most women can agree with me…

post 15…

maybe thats why no argument.

theere are more women on this forum than men…

 

[kingal86]

that makes sense… but still… seems very unfair to women… I would NOT want to be married to a man who is sleeping w/ someone else… I would just have to be his celibate wife… cook his food… clean his house… but he isn’t coming near my body…

If they were put into an arranged marriage in that sort of patriarchal society I doubt the wives always had much choice in the matter

Though I imagine the women were brought up to see having children as important, and I think bearing children bought status in tribal society (I think Isaac’s wife Rachel got jealous and bear-suicidal when she seemed barren, Gn 30:1 “Give me children, or I shall die” JB). And hopefully at least some of the men (even with lots of wives) were able to satisfy them and didn’t just them completely as baby factories and servants for men.

 

[distracted]

If they were put into an arranged marriage in that sort of patriarchal society I doubt the wives always had much choice in the matter

Though I imagine the women were brought up to see having children as important, and I think bearing children bought status in tribal society (I think Isaac’s wife Rachel got jealous and bear-suicidal when she seemed barren, Gn 30:1 “Give me children, or I shall die” JB). And hopefully at least some of the men (even with lots of wives) were able to satisfy them and didn’t just them completely as baby factories and servants for men.

I’m glad you have begun attending church… although… there is only one Church… the others are called ecclessial communities…

but i digresss…

actually women in the ancient Hebrew world were treated better tahn women in other societies… .but that is hardly saying much…

in any case… there is no way i would have sex w/ my “husband” after he has had sex w/ some other woman… that seems SO incredibly ICKY to me… no matter what culture…

but then… i guess i am “spoiled” by Cathlicism… No Church has a better view of the importance of women…

i love the Church’s love of Mary…

 

[kingal86]

The main point I was making was in that society women often weren’t considered to have the right to refuse their husband (nor, often, to refuse an arranged marriage), so refusing the man back then might not always be successful.

In fact that assumption lasted in many Western jurisdictions (at least in theory), marital rape was only ruled a crime in England in the 1990s

I’m in a German town at the moment where the Catholic church has more services than the local Protestant church, so I’ve been to Mass (in German) a few times too as well as “ecclesiastical communities” (isn’t ecclesia Latin for church?). I was planning to try and get up early enough to go to the 8am Mass this Sunday (rather than 10am at the other church), then have more time to finish my uni work.

 

[distracted]

The main point I was making was in that society women often weren’t considered to have the right to refuse their husband (nor, often, to refuse an arranged marriage), so refusing the man back then might not always be successful.

In fact that assumption lasted in many Western jurisdictions (at least in theory), marital rape was only ruled a crime in England in the 1990s

I’m in a German town at the moment where the Catholic church has more services than the local Protestant church, so I’ve been to Mass (in German) a few times too as well as “ecclesiastical communities” (isn’t ecclesia Latin for church?). I was planning to try and get up early enough to go to the 8am Mass this Sunday (rather than 10am at the other church), then have more time to finish my uni work.

yes it means “church” … but a church community is not THE CHURCH…

yes, i fail to see how rape fails to be rape just cuz you are married… In fact, marriage would seem to make the man more… responsible for respecting his wife… you expect strangers to do vile things… i dont know… just a thought… What do i know… never been married … probably never will be… maybe this is one reason WHY… cuz i think a lot of sex that seems to be consensual is really rape…

i know this guy who once told me about some of his ex girlfiends… how they woiuld be getting phsyical with him but at the same time saying “no… stop… no.” but they didn’t just rip themselves away so he figured (tho he didn’t SAY this) that they wanted sex… To him that was ridiculous… as if people can’t have mixed feelings about such situations… but anyway, he acted like it was so stupif for women to be that way… cuz they obviously want it… but why didn’t he give equal time or consideration to the fact that the also DIDN"t want it???

and it seems he could have done with a little introspection… I mean… why is he pursuing ntimacy when the woman is ambivelent?

women can feel a lot of affection for a man and want sex on some level but not whole-heartedly… I dont know… the guy didn’t seem to have much insight into human nature and how complex humans can be… but whatever…

i tend to think a lot of men are like that… but i am jaded cuz of all the stuff i have either been through or seen others go thro… very cynical…

anyhow… where was i?

oh … yeah… kinda always wondered why God didn’t go into a rage over multiple wives… yet He went into a rage about other stuff… I know idolatry is the worst sin cuz its basically making a god of something that’s not God… not Him… which is demonic… but… anyhow… .