The Old Testament

[Frindon]

We all know that the New Testament is the Word of God. But what of the Old Testament, what is it’s authority. Is it inerrent, and what does that mean. What does inspired by God mean?

When a Jewish general tells his troop that God says kill all the enemy, men, women, and babies. Is that what God said? Or, was he just trying to get his troops to do an ethnic cleansing, so that they could collect the spoils with no one having a counter claim. Was it the same as our politicians saying “God is on our side”.

So are the 17 books of history to be seen as authentic alongside the prophets?

This has been a real obstacle in arguments with atheists and non Christians alike, and I find trying to read what NewAdvent says takes more patience than I have.

Looking forward to informed replies.

Frinders

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=Frindon;7068310]We all know that the New Testament is the Word of God. But what of the Old Testament, what is it’s authority. Is it inerrent, and what does that mean. What does inspired by God mean?

Hi there. the Old testement comes form the same Authority as the New. it is inerrent. It may be easier to say what it does not mean. It does not means that every story in the Bible happened exactly the way it is written. For instance Gen 1 and Gen 2 contain 2 different stories of creation. Both are true. It is what they are Telling us not the setting it is told in. You have to look at who the story is being written to and what it is tring to convey.

When a Jewish general tells his troop that God says kill all the enemy, men, women, and babies. Is that what God said? Or, was he just trying to get his troops to do an ethnic cleansing, so that they could collect the spoils with no one having a counter claim. Was it the same as our politicians saying “God is on our side”.

If you read the storie of when God called for total genicide of people you will see that the spoils of the land were to be destroyed as well.

 

[Barbkw]

I doubt that aethists & non-Christians are concerned about the validity of the Old Testament. Most pagans were Christians, and like Eve and Adam, they choose to be their own gods and to that, they willingly denied Christ, their Savior and Judge.

They are refusing the gift of the Holy Spirit. Your arguing with aethists and non-Christians will not change their heart or their minds. The Holy Spirit will provide the hammer and chisel for that work.

I refuse to place 21st century values on tribal people who lived 3,000, 2,000, 1,000, 500 years before the birth of Christ. I’m unable to understand the use of capital punishment by present day Islam.

How do you think ancient peoples would judge our civilization; knowing that we kill 46 million children per year worldwide through abortion?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Don’t forget the Flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah, and as cruel as these events may seem, God was looking down and seeing the way people behaved.

It seems to be God’s way of trying to start again, and if God condemns on this Earth, he can also raise all people up, to a greater good life after death.
If there is no God, then there is no hope, and none of the tragedies of this life can be put right.

 

[Frindon]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Catholics don’t need converting, it is the atheists and non Christians who do.

So you are basically saying a loving God will tell people to kill totally innocent babies. Well, in that case we can’t really blame the Muslim terrorists, God is telling them to do similar deeds so how can you say they are wrong.

Then of course we have the pharisees complaining that the apostles were not adherring to the food laws by picking ears of corn and eating them, without washing. Jesus put them right by pointing out what King David did. So can the laws be right? Or is Jesus wrong?

I can quite see that the whole Old Testament was inspired by God, since the lives of the Jews and their prophets revolved around religion and God. But, that doesn’t make all parts of it truthful.

Looking at Genesis we have Cain going out into the world and marrying, who? And yes there are two versions of creation, and they are different. That does not bother me. I don’t expect stone age man to understand Quantom Mechanics.

God allowed the Jews to get divorced because they were hard of heart, that did not make it right. And I suspect that the same thing applied to the General, God allowed it but did not approve.

My view of the prophets is entirely different, they spoke for God.

Frindon

 

[Barbkw]

Catholics don’t need converting, it is the atheists and non Christians who do.

**Fallen away Catholics are the largest number of nonattending Christians worldwide. **

So you are basically saying a loving God will tell people to kill totally innocent babies.

No, I’m absolutely not saying that, nor would I ever believe that about the Trinity

Well, in that case we can’t really blame the Muslim terrorists, God is telling them to do similar deeds so how can you say they are wrong.

No, people turn from God. God never turns from His people.

Then of course we have the pharisees complaining that the apostles were not adherring to the food laws by picking ears of corn and eating them, without washing. Jesus put them right by pointing out what King David did. So can the laws be right? Or is Jesus wrong?

At the time of Christ’s birth, Jews had 613 laws. These laws were founded in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Over time - the original laws were interrpreted and increased to the point that they became so excessive that no Jew would be allowed to reach heaven. Jesus said the Pharisses were like cups, shined on the outside and filthy within.

I can quite see that the whole Old Testament was inspired by God, since the lives of the Jews and their prophets revolved around religion and God. But, that doesn’t make all parts of it truthful.

**Sacred Scripture makes no mention of the Jews following 613 Commandments, but we know about some of the conflict that Jesus had against the Romanized Jewish religious ruling class. **

Looking at Genesis we have Cain going out into the world and marrying, who?

**Probably, his sister. As tribal groups do / did across the world. **

God allowed the Jews to get divorced because they were hard of heart, that did not make it right.

**Jewish laws concerning marriage and divorce. See:

jewfaq.org/613.htm**

 

[teak421]

We all know that the New Testament is the Word of God. But what of the Old Testament, what is it’s authority. Is it inerrent, and what does that mean. What does inspired by God mean?

When a Jewish general tells his troop that God says kill all the enemy, men, women, and babies. Is that what God said? Or, was he just trying to get his troops to do an ethnic cleansing, so that they could collect the spoils with no one having a counter claim. Was it the same as our politicians saying “God is on our side”.

So are the 17 books of history to be seen as authentic alongside the prophets?

This has been a real obstacle in arguments with atheists and non Christians alike, and I find trying to read what NewAdvent says takes more patience than I have.

Looking forward to informed replies.

Frinders

Consider spending time reading the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation… It does a masterful job of speaking about the Old Testament. goo.gl/kn8J

Also, the Catechism (which draws on the above document) might provide even more insight.

• Michael

 

[Robert_Sock]

He told them a parable also: “No one tears a piece from a new garment and puts it upon an old garment; if he does, he will tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine desires new; for he says, ‘The old is good.’” *
–Luke 5:36-39

 

[Vince1022]

We all know that the New Testament is the Word of God. But what of the Old Testament, what is it’s authority. Is it inerrent, and what does that mean. What does inspired by God mean?

When a Jewish general tells his troop that God says kill all the enemy, men, women, and babies. Is that what God said? Or, was he just trying to get his troops to do an ethnic cleansing, so that they could collect the spoils with no one having a counter claim. Was it the same as our politicians saying “God is on our side”.

So are the 17 books of history to be seen as authentic alongside the prophets?

This has been a real obstacle in arguments with atheists and non Christians alike, and I find trying to read what NewAdvent says takes more patience than I have.

Looking forward to informed replies.

Frinders

The Old Testament is also the word of God, inspired, etc. Not inerrant.

Read the Catechism para 50-141.

 

[Tietjen]

The Old Testament is also the word of God, inspired, etc. Not inerrant.

I think that I know what you mean and I believe that you meant to say the the Old Testiment IS inerrant.

 

[Frindon]

Consider spending time reading the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation… It does a masterful job of speaking about the Old Testament. goo.gl/kn8J

Also, the Catechism (which draws on the above document) might provide even more insight.

• Michael

Thank you Michael. I found this after a while. I do wish Church writers would not be so wordy, the truth almost gets lost in the midst of their creative art. Now I don’t know if this is authorititive but I guess this is what I was looking for and** I think** it says what I want to know.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965…

THE OLD TESTAMENT

*14. In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race the God of infinite love, by a special dispensation, chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises. First He entered into a covenant with Abraham (see Gen. 15:18) and, through Moses, with the people of Israel (see Ex. 24:8). To this people which He had acquired for Himself, He so manifested Himself through words and deeds as the one true and living God that Israel came to know by experience the ways of God with men. Then too, when God Himself spoke to them through the mouth of the prophets, Israel daily gained a deeper and clearer understanding of His ways and made them more widely known among the nations (see Ps. 21:29; 95:1-3; Is. 2:1-5; Jer. 3:17). The plan of salvation foretold by the sacred authors, recounted and explained by them, is found as the true word of God in the books of the Old Testament: these books, therefore, written under divine inspiration, remain permanently valuable. “For all that was written for our instruction, so that by steadfastness and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope” (Rom. 15:4).

1. The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy. (1) These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence.*

I think it says that all is useful but the prophets are divinely inspired etc. But once again the truth is hidden in the words, but why should it be hidden. Oh for the days of the old catechism, Who made you? God made me. Definitive, and a three word response, instead of three hundred.

Anyway, it was useful, I will read it several times and see if I can reduce it to a more understandable form.

 

[Vince1022]

I think that I know what you mean and I believe that you meant to say the the Old Testiment IS inerrant.

No I did not. The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in the Catechism does not teach it.

 

[Frindon]

No I did not. The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in the Catechism does not teach it.

Morning Vince,

For the benefit of those without a Cathechism, could you copy and paste the relevant section here please. But people lets remain calm and see if we can get something definitive about what the church teaches.

My problem is that if you read the NT it is clear what it is saying. It is not wrapped around by reverance, which tends to blur the message, clarity is essential. You can get so near an object that you no longer see it. It was for this reason I loved the old catechism, simple question and answer. Admittedly it was written mostly for children, but is that not how we are taught to believe.

Frinders

 

[Petergee]

No I did not. The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in the Catechism does not teach it.

You are mistaken. See paragraphs 105-107 and 121-123 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.(there is no separate Catechism for the Roman [aka Latin, Western] rite of the Catholic Church. All rites of the Catholic Chgurch share the same doctrines.)

which quotes at length Dei Verbum, (Dogmatic Constitution on Revelation, Second Vatican Council) :

e.g. *"11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17)"*

The clear teaching of the Catholic Church is that the books of the Old Testament are inerrant.

 

[Tietjen]

No I did not. The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in the Catechism does not teach it.

My bad then. Perhaps your definition of inerrant is different than mine. I would argue about whether or not the CCC teaches this (It Does), however, it’s Sunday and I’m in a good mood and don’t wish to ruin that by arguing whether the Bible (Old and New Testaments) are without error; just as I will not argue that gravity exists.

 

[Frindon]

The clear teaching of the Catholic Church is that the books of the Old Testament are inerrant.

But what does that mean. Consider it could mean that the history is accurate, and I would go along with that. It could mean that it can be used for teaching, the history is accurate and you must not do that i.e., kill babies and say it was God’s will. But does it mean that God wanted those babies killed even though they were totally innocent. In which case was what Jesus said wrong, It is better that a millstone be tied round your neck etc. It is conflicting. I see Jesus as The Truth, The Way, and The Life, so the OT is inerrent in that it is accurate, not necessarily that we should be copying it.

Frinders

 

[Petergee]

But what does that mean.

It means that God is the Author of the OT and we know that God does not tell lies or make mistakes.

Consider it could mean that the history is accurate, and I would go along with that. It could mean that it can be used for teaching, the history is accurate and you must not do that i.e., kill babies and say it was God’s will. But does it mean that God wanted those babies killed even though they were totally innocent.

The OT does not say that the Israelites killed babies and then said it was God’s will. It says God told them to do it and they did it. God gives life, God can take it away. In this case primarily to teach the Jews that His people must be pure and unmixed or contaminated by other peoples and their false gods.

In which case was what Jesus said wrong, It is better that a millstone be tied round your neck etc. It is conflicting.

No it’s not. Jesus was referring to those who place obstackles in the way of little ones who have faith in Him. Not those who kill babies. Certainly not those who killed babies because God told them to.

I see Jesus as The Truth, The Way, and The Life, so the OT is inerrent in that it is accurate, not necessarily that we should be copying it.

Yes inerrant means “without error”. It doesn’t mean “behave exactly like the people it describes behaved”.

 

[Tietjen]

But what does that mean. Consider it could mean that the history is accurate, and I would go along with that. It could mean that it can be used for teaching, the history is accurate and you must not do that i.e., kill babies and say it was God’s will.

First, of course you are not to kill babies and claim that it is God’s will. The Old Testament is full of history. One must recognize that just because something happened in history does not indicate that we (in the future) have the same obligation. The fact that Israel slew men, women, children and livestock at the command of God, does not give us liberty to do the same thing. We are not Israelites living in Old Testament times and we have not been instructed by God to do such a thing.

But does it mean that God wanted those babies killed even though they were totally innocent.

God said that He did. So unless you believe that God was playing some sort of cruel joke, then He did. Understand this… We are ALL God’s creations. That means that God owns us regardless whether we accept Him or not. Every breath that we draw is a gift from God. Since He created us, does it not stand to reason that He can do (or have done) anything that He wishes with us? If I create a vase in pottery class. Do I not have the right to destroy that vase if I choose? Be thankful, that God is merciful and actually loves us enough to (for the time being) put up with our ridiculous imperfections.

In which case was what Jesus said wrong, It is better that a millstone be tied round your neck etc. It is conflicting.

Jesus is the NEW COVENANT between God and man. Prior to the New Covenant, man was under the Old Covenant. Christ fulfilled the old covenant and we are now under a new one.

I see Jesus as The Truth, The Way, and The Life, so the OT is inerrant in that it is accurate, not necessarily that we should be copying it.

Agreed, we shouldn’t be copying it. However, that doesn’t mean that it contains errors simply because we don’t like to think of God as being vengeful or having the ability to take the lives of children.

 

[teak421]

Thank you Michael. I found this after a while. I do wish Church writers would not be so wordy, the truth almost gets lost in the midst of their creative art. Now I don’t know if this is authorititive but I guess this is what I was looking for and** I think** it says what I want to know.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965…

THE OLD TESTAMENT

*14. In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race the God of infinite love, by a special dispensation, chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises. First He entered into a covenant with Abraham (see Gen. 15:18) and, through Moses, with the people of Israel (see Ex. 24:8). To this people which He had acquired for Himself, He so manifested Himself through words and deeds as the one true and living God that Israel came to know by experience the ways of God with men. Then too, when God Himself spoke to them through the mouth of the prophets, Israel daily gained a deeper and clearer understanding of His ways and made them more widely known among the nations (see Ps. 21:29; 95:1-3; Is. 2:1-5; Jer. 3:17). The plan of salvation foretold by the sacred authors, recounted and explained by them, is found as the true word of God in the books of the Old Testament: these books, therefore, written under divine inspiration, remain permanently valuable. “For all that was written for our instruction, so that by steadfastness and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope” (Rom. 15:4).

1. The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy. (1) These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence.*

I think it says that all is useful but the prophets are divinely inspired etc. But once again the truth is hidden in the words, but why should it be hidden. Oh for the days of the old catechism, Who made you? God made me. Definitive, and a three word response, instead of three hundred.

Anyway, it was useful, I will read it several times and see if I can reduce it to a more understandable form.

I’m not sure I agree with you here… That entire document can be read in a single sitting on such an important subject. Think about it, this is the key to pretty much everything… How does the Church get and pass on the teaching of Christ.

What exactly are you looking for?

• Michael

 

[Frindon]

I’m not sure I agree with you here… That entire document can be read in a single sitting on such an important subject. Think about it, this is the key to pretty much everything… How does the Church get and pass on the teaching of Christ.

What exactly are you looking for?

• Michael

Hi Michael,

I am looking for “subject verb object” type clarity. I am not interested in wrapping it round with clauses about God’s goodness etc or how wonderful God is, I know that. What I want is clarity, such as you get from the “Plain English Society”. In England we have been having a fight for 20 - 30 years with legaleese, where retailer and manufacturers have been wording small print in their contracts so that only solicitors, and not always them, can understand it. I’m dyslexic BTW. The OT is like obscured glass in comparison to the NT crystal clear. I am looking for the crystal clear. I am also looking for logic, and by that I mean that anything that is said to come from God must not conflict with the attributes that we know of, of God.

Frinders