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Matariel
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I see cognition of humans as a limitation, as opposed to God’s Mind in which thoughts do not occur, only omniscience. So I see humans as the ones lacking something, not God.
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agangbern
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Indeed, existence and will are two distinct realities. Even man, a mere creature, can will to cease to exist on this planet. That is suicide if he does it. And there are men who go into that decision.
And man was created in the image of God. And now you want to say that what His creature can do He cannot do? That is where a contradiction arises. The creature would appear to be more powerful than the Creator.
The decision to cease to physically exist is not a manifestation of power, but of weakness. God certainly is greatly more powerful than his creature. He would not decide to cease to exist, although He could IF He should will it.
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Shike
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Do you think that my position is as such?I agree 100%. It’s that “free will” thingy that everyone keeps talking about. What’s amazing is that they want to credit man with COMPLETE free will, and with God they limit it. LOL
This is the heart of the matter. Is the possibility of God choosing evil or choosing non-existance a real proposition, or is it actually nonsense? If so, can God do nonsense? And if not, do you think that not being able to do nonsense is a limit on free-will?
I think this thread is now going in circles because now we have a newcomer who failed (apparently) to read all the posts and is blindly (more or less) re-stating your view.
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agangbern
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“Can God do nonsense?” Yes He can! But the question is: Will He do nonsense? The answer certainly is NO.
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jkiernan56
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Yes Pepcis … for once you said something that was ABSOLUTELY true … and I bet you didn’t even know it. You said that we acknowledge that man has complete free will and God has limitations. But remember that we also acknowledge that God has a free will as well. Both you and I have limitations of our free will according to reality. God also has limitations of His free will according to reality.I agree 100%. It’s that “free will” thingy that everyone keeps talking about. What’s amazing is that they want to credit man with COMPLETE free will, and with God they limit it. LOL
Do you know the difference between something that is real and not real? You’re understanding of what you stated is because you do not have a grasp of what is real and not real. There really are some things that are NOT real. That is an aximoron for you. Do you acknowledge that logically speaking there is no such thing as a 4 sided triangle? Those are words that have been thrown together … but words thrown together do not make something real. Something is either REAL or NOT REAL. Something cannot be REAL and NOT REAL at the same time. There is objective reality and truth outside of ourselves independant of what we believe or think. I could tell you in a sentence that the words you are reading right now - are being written by a MONKEY. Now that statement is either TRUE or NOT TRUE. Either I am a monkey or I am NOT a monkey. There is REALITY … and there is NON REALITY. Truth is reality - falsehood is not reality.
Our attempt to explain to you that man has complete free will as does God is because we are dealing with REALITY. God can only do what is REAL. God cannot do what is NOT real. The same is true for you and me. The limitation of Gods will is that He can only do that which is REAL and TRUE. God lives in the real world - not a false one. God is REALITY. God can do what is according to Himself. He cannot will Himself to cease to exist. That is not reality. It is a concept that is false like a 4 sided triangle.
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grannymh
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Question: Post 440
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jkiernan56
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Agripa
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jkiernan56
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Agripa
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jkiernan56
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O no, not at all. In fact it amazes me that in the Hindu religion, they also have a belief in 3 Gods:
Brahma - Creator
Vishnu - Savior
Shiva - Destroyer of evil and purifier
I have not read all of St. Augustine on The Trinity either, but I have read the first couple of “books” … and He gets very deep into Knowing, Knower, Known … Lover … Beloved … Gift, Giver, Receiver, Received
Someday I would love to get a formal education in Philosophy as well as Theology.
I just happen to accept that St. Augustine’s understanding of The Trinity is absolutely correct according to reality … and that The Word became flesh. “In the Beginning, the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
Where I feel like I get my feet on the ground when it comes to understanding the Trinity is to look at Christian Marriage … the relationships between Husband, Wife, and Child. In a certain sense I really do think we have a model that affords us an understanding and insight into the Persons of the Trinity. John Paul II says that Christian Marriage is the most perfect image we have of the Trinity in this world. It is not perfect, but the most perfect we can have for now.
John Paul II’s Theology of the Body is going to have a HUGE impact on the world … i can see the tree starting to grow from the seed - no pun intended.
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grannymh
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Agripa post 445
As I recall, the Hebrew Scriptures refer indirectly to the Holy Spirit and foretell the coming of the Second Person of the Trinity.
Someone else may tell you that accepting does not necessarily include understanding. Someone else might say that is where the gift of Faith comes in. Since I’m a “carpe diem” type of person, I would probably throw caution to the winds and see what happens if I told my Abba that I believed He exists.
Blessings,
granny
Dear Agripa,
As I recall, the Hebrew Scriptures refer indirectly to the Holy Spirit and foretell the coming of the Second Person of the Trinity.
Someone else may tell you that accepting does not necessarily include understanding. Someone else might say that is where the gift of Faith comes in. Since I’m a “carpe diem” type of person, I would probably throw caution to the winds and see what happens if I told my Abba that I believed He exists.
Blessings,
granny
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Agripa
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But that analogy brings into contemplation the place of Mary and certain other questions - why was she never recognized as a goddess or the feminine of God? Is she seen as godlike by Catholics, but resticted from attaining godhood? Are Catholics limited by the Church in ascribing such status to her and if so, why? And if you use Christian marriage as the model, that does not seem to jibe well with the hierarchy clearly posited in the model compared to a discussion of the Trinity which insists on three equal aspects of God - none of which submits to the other.
Could you imagine the impact had Mary been made part of the Trinity? Wow. . . .
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jkiernan56
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Mary is a created human being just like you and me. But she has a very special place historically and in the heart of Jesus as His earthly Mother. Mary is not God, but she is honored and respected for who she is and her role in salvation history.
I do use Christian marriage as the model for understanding and discussion of the Trinity. It is an imperfect image, but it is the most perfect we have. I’m not clear on what you meant that the discussion of the Trinity insists on three equal aspects of God. Can you help clarify for me?
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grannymh
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Would that be considered a four-sided triangle? My apology to you, Mother Mary. With all the high-level philosophy on this thread, that comment just slipped out.
My apology to you Agripa, for taking that quote out of context. I couldn’t resist the temptation.
Seriously, the place of Mary in the economy of salvation was considered in depth because of all the implications. Finally, she was defined as Theotokos, Mother of God. Which, by the way, everyone already knew since the birth of Jesus.
Personally, I like Mother Mary as she is. Especially since she looks after me even though my sense of humor is…
Blessings,
granny
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jkiernan56
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We (or I) like your sense of humorWould that be considered a four-sided triangle? My apology to you, Mother Mary. With all the high-level philosophy on this thread, that comment just slipped out.
My apology to you Agripa, for taking that quote out of context. I couldn’t resist the temptation.
Seriously, the place of Mary in the economy of salvation was considered in depth because of all the implications. Finally, she was defined as Theotokos, Mother of God. Which, by the way, everyone already knew since the birth of Jesus.
Personally, I like Mother Mary as she is. Especially since she looks after me even though my sense of humor is…
Blessings,
granny
Sometimes when I pray the Hail Mary, I will add the words "Mother of Jesus, Mother of God … " rather than just the words “Mother of God”. It helps me to recall that Jesus is fully human as well as fully God.
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Shike
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Read through all the posts in this thread and then post what you said again.
ciao,
Michael
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Pro_Domina
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First off, equality does not exist. Only between the Holy Trinity.
God does not think like our post-French revolution egalitarian world. Everything is hierarchical. Things are superior or inferior, though the inferior is not be despised, as it is all part of the Order God created in the Universe. From anything, like virginity and marriage to eagle and ant, they all have a value and a representation of an aspect of God that no other thing has.
And this is above all for a soul, because every person is called to have a vision of God that no one else can have.
Second, your opinion needs a little backing. An opinion has weight either by logic or the force of the very person that says it.
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Agripa
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As I understand my old catechism, the whole divine “economy” is the common work of the three divine persons. For as the Trinity has only one and the same natures so too does it have only one and the same operation: "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of creation but one principle - each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property. In other words and to paraphrase, one God and Father from whom all things are, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are. It is above all the divine missions of the Son’s Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit that show forth the properties of the divine persons.
Again, please note this is a rough repitition of the standard catechism and I am not even sure if that would stand up to rigorous scrutiny, but to me that is still a far diffrent construct than the Christian marriage model which requires submission of one aspect to the other - child to parents / mother to father, etc.
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Agripa
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You are right - it appears God thinks more like an ancient Roman emporer who also valued virginity, marriage and hierarchy.
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