The "Once Saved is Always Saved (or not)" thread

[Muze]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

 

[babylonsfalling]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

I’ve never heard it said that anyone COULD “take our salvation away from us”, so I’m sure that you’re arguing against a point that’s really been made in the first place. I’ve always heard it phrased in terms of losing one’s salvation, not in terms of someone or something “taking” salvation.
Who’s been phrasing it that way?
Who is the taker?

 

[pablope]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

What do you mean by “we can give it back”? You may need to explain what you mean here further.

 

[john_aurelius]

I would say that Romans 8 clearly dismisses any possibility of something external taking our salvation away from us, Who can seperate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

Do you think we can sin in a manner that will kill the grace in our lives? like Apostacy. Mortal sins do that, which is why we must be reconciled to God and the Church.

If we have the grace of perseverance given to us we will continue to confess our sins and trust again in God for our salvation.

 

[Muze]

What do you mean by “we can give it back”? You may need to explain what you mean here further.

The person would have to make a fundamental choice in their belief in Jesus Christ with regard to their eternal life, either that He doesn’t exist, isn’t able to save them, or does not wish to be saved.

 

[john_aurelius]

Or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Satan cannot SNATCH the saved out of Jesus’ hands.

The saved can leave on their own for Jesus is love and as the scriptures teach us–“Love does not demand its own way”.

Jesus loves us so much he LETS us go to heaven or hell!

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

If I understand your phrase “give it back” correctly as in us turning away from God and His grace (and thus salvaton) and not taken from external forces then yes this is along the lines of my belief.

I don’t see, however, the reconciliation that you do. From my experience those who adhere to OSAS reject the notion that even we could walk away from God once we are His. If a believer has the appearance of walking away from Him they would argue (from my experience) they were never His in the first place.

God bless

 

[thenobes]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

Well, looking at the other end of the relationship, the Father isn’t required to draw us after we are in Christ’s hands. Thus we may turn from sheep to goats, no longer being drawn, and wander away.

John says that all who the Father draws to Christ will come to Him, and that Christ will not turn Him away. But He never mentions if the Father might end His drawing, if only for a short time.

peace
steve

 

[Catholic_Dude]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

The OSAS crowd incorrectly assumes that ‘eternal life’ is granted here and now, rather than at the end of one’s life at Judgment time - they’ve conflated conversion with final salvation.

In reality, we don’t have eternal life yet, thus you cannot lose what you don’t have - making the Protestant concept of “once saved” an anachronism according to Scripture. That’s why Paul never mentions ‘eternal life’ in the midst of his popular justification/conversion passages, and rather puts them in the ‘on the basis of good works’ category (e.g. Rom 2:6-8, 6:22, Gal 6:7-9). For OSAS to even be possible, a case would have to be made that Heaven is secured rather than the Goal.
**The effect of the isolation of soteriology from Trinitarian dogma is most evident in the pervasive Protestant doctrine of “the eternal security of the believer,” also known as “once saved, always saved.” According to this doctrine, continual relationship with God is merely, albeit necessarily, symptomatic of salvation. This notion is contrary to the Catholic understanding of salvation as identical to perpetual relationship with God, through participation in His eternally relational life as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

****Eternal security proposes a radical separation of relationship with God from salvation by God, as is evident in the homily “sin cuts Christians off from fellowship with God, but never from the eternal gift of His salvation.” This homily at least trivializes the essential message of the Gospel, which is salvation through reconciliation to God (cf. Rom. 5:10-11; 2 Cor. 5:17-20). **
ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp

 

[pablope]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

From what I understand you are saying…yes, no one can take it away, but we, the individual can certainly loose it by not doing the will of the Father, continuing in sin…but we can gain it back by turning our lives around, confessing and living lives according to what Christ taught…i.e…doing the will of the Father.

 

[WesleyF]

The OSAS crowd incorrectly assumes that ‘eternal life’ is granted here and now, rather than at the end of one’s life at Judgment time - they’ve conflated conversion with final salvation.

I want to know how you reconcile these verses with what you said above.

“He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life” (John 6:54)

“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son” (1 John 5:11)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I want to know how you reconcile these verses with what you said above.

“He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life” (John 6:54)

“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son” (1 John 5:11)

Great question.

John uses “eternal life” differently than the Synoptics and Paul; this isn’t a cop-out but a very clear exegetical claim. For John, “eternal life” means to be in a current relationship with the Trinity, while the others it means “worthy of entering Heaven” after living a good life. This is why 1 Jn 3:15 can say a Christian who commits grave sin no longer has “eternal life abiding in himself”. The grammar is clear: John speaks of present-tense while the rest of the NT speaks in the future-tense. If one doesn’t distinguish between the two, they will run into exegetical problems.

Check out this article which is an Eternal Security Debate Essay, and also read the article I linked to above about being in a relationship with the Trinity.

 

[john_aurelius]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.

IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.

Thoughts?

Perhaps you can find a reconciliation in the perseverance of the Saints, that is that God preseves his elect and keeps them in relationship to him until they are justified in glory.

 

[Muze]

Perhaps you can find a reconciliation in the perseverance of the Saints, that is that God preseves his elect and keeps them in relationship to him until they are justified in glory.

That kinda ignores all the warning verses about woprking to keep and about losing one’s salvation.

 

[john_aurelius]

That kinda ignores all the warning verses about woprking to keep and about losing one’s salvation.

hardly, read St. Augustine on the perseverance of the Saints. He’s Catholic and is fully aware of mortal sin and the fact that someone who has been saved through baptism can loose their salvation by destroying justifying grace.

On the other hand it sounds like your ignoring the verses about election, predestination and final salvation.

 

[Muze]

hardly, read St. Augustine on the perseverance of the Saints. He’s Catholic and is fully aware of mortal sin and the fact that someone who has been saved through baptism can loose their salvation by destroying justifying grace.

On the other hand it sounds like your ignoring the verses about election, predestination and final salvation.

Not at all. I’m simply saying that all of these have to be resolved, and taking an OSAS view ignores those verses which say that salvation can be lost.

Once all of the verses are taken into account,election and predestination take on a more biblical centered meaning.

 

[john_aurelius]

Not at all. I’m simply saying that all of these have to be resolved, and taking an OSAS view ignores those verses which say that salvation can be lost.

Once all of the verses are taken into account,election and predestination take on a more biblical centered meaning.

I’m not taking a OSAS view, I’m pointing out that when the Church has believed in election and predestination as Augustine and Aquinas do (not as Calvin does) then those who are saved who persevere to the end and become saved do so because they are elect and were predestined to do so.

As I said in my earliest posts, mortal sin, Apostacy, murder, adultery all remove us from the relationship which we have in Christ and therefore we “loose our salvation” however, we can be reconciled and if we persevere, then we do it by God’s grace.

 

[WesleyF]

Check out this article which is an Eternal Security Debate Essay, and also read the article I linked to above about being in a relationship with the Trinity.

Your article actually proves that eternal life is here and now.

However, what you mean by “eternal life” is something different than what the OSAS believer believes. In fact, I agree. Eternal life is participation in the very life of Jesus. Eternal life “abides” in us. So to answer the classic question - “What is so eternal about eternal life if I can lose it?”, the answer is that what is eternal is the life of Jesus. We take hold of this life of Jesus and it abides in us.

Strictly speaking, we human beings cannot have “eternal life”, because we are not eternal creatures, i.e. we don’t exist from eternity. So eternal life can only abide in us. We do not possess it as though it belonged to our own nature, but it abides in us.

Do you agree with this?

 

[Philthy]

OK, so we have two Scripture lists, OSAS and not OSAS

This thread is created to ***discuss ***how to reconcile the two.
IMHO, the reconciliation is that no one can take our salvation away from us, but we can give it back.
Thoughts?

I think basically you are correct, but giving it back is not the Scriptural sense of what happens. We can forfeit it by failing to “stay awake”, by not “persevering to the end”, by not “bearing fruit”, by not “forgiving others”, by “living for the flesh”, etc etc etc.
But your “reconciling of the two” doesnt “reconcile” them, it eliminates OSAS and proves NOT OSAS to be the truth. Only a “Once Saved” person can “give back” or forfeit their salvation (and ultimately end up condemned). That means they were Once Saved but NOT Always Saved, right?