The "Once Saved is Always Saved (or not)" thread

[Philthy]

The OSAS crowd incorrectly assumes that ‘eternal life’ is granted here and now, rather than at the end of one’s life at Judgment time - they’ve conflated conversion with final salvation.

I agree with the concept of something very different occurring at conversion vs final salvation (ie being judged worthy of Heaven), but your stance on “eternal life” seems tough to defend. In John 17:3 Christ says flatly, “Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” and so there is a sense that eternal life is - for us on earth - a qualitative event. It is the quality of knowing God. Where I find many Protestants erring is to consider it as a “quantity” - ie everlasting. They reason that if it is eternal (ie everlasting) that it cannot cease. That aspect of eternal life does exist in eternity, but not during our earthly journey. Eternal life exists independent of our participation in it, and eternal life is eternal, but our participation in it is not eternal.

 

[wmscott]

I’ve never heard it said that anyone COULD “take our salvation away from us”, so I’m sure that you’re arguing against a point that’s really been made in the first place. I’ve always heard it phrased in terms of losing one’s salvation, not in terms of someone or something “taking” salvation.
Who’s been phrasing it that way?
Who is the taker?

I think it is more of a twofold process, first it is we, you or I, that does something (SIN) that keeps us form “persevering to the end”, “cutting ourselves off”, being “disqualified”, or “Fall”, and it is by Gods choice whether he holds us accountable or not. Because we are all sinners we put ourselves in a position to have our salvation questioned by our Lord every day we live and breathe. For someone to disagree is someone who feels they are sinless, does anyone here know a person today that is sinless? Scripture is very clear that we can lose our salvation. Not only the passages cited below but look at the parable of the sheep and goats Matthew 25:31-46, a lot of food for thought. Even if we are sheep we are still all sinners.

Matthew 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rom 11:22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

1Cor 9:27No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

1Cor 10:11-12These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Heb 10:26-27 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

 

[steve_b]

“What is so eternal about eternal life if I can lose it?”, the answer is that what is eternal is the life of Jesus. We take hold of this life of Jesus and it abides in us.

Strictly speaking, we human beings cannot have “eternal life”, because we are not eternal creatures, i.e. we don’t exist from eternity. So eternal life can only abide in us. We do not possess it as though it belonged to our own nature, but it abides in us.

Do you agree with this?

The distinction I think you’re trying to make is between “eternal” and “immortal”

Once created, our souls are immortal, they don’t sleep, they don’t die, they live forever…i.e. our souls will exist for eternity. The question then is…where will that existence be, heaven or hell?

“Eternal life” is another way of saying life in heaven with God for eternity. Hell is not considered eternal life, even though a soul who goes there will exist there for all aternity.

Once created, our souls have the power of memory, intellect, and will, and will have those attributes for all eternity,whether in heaven or hell. Otherwise, how could a soul process and know what is happening for all eternity, whether in heaven or hell?

One can forfeit eternal life in heaven, and instead spend eternity in hell, due to unrepented mortal sin. This is refered to as death, even though the soul is still fully aware of where they are and experience where they are.