The only singing I hear at Mass comes from cantors

[Tatyanna]

Hello again, it’s been a while. (Computer crashed and died.)

As a musician and devoted Catholic, my cross is to attend Sunday Mass and experience what appears to be dead, obligatory worship. I play and sing at a Presbyterian church with a continuing history of excellent congregational, choral, and solo singing. I then go to Mass at any of several area churches and experience a near total lack of sound coming from the assembly. They seem too willing to let the cantor/song leader do all the singing and in turn the cantor is too willing to sing for them. The role of the cantor has turned into that as a soloist for the entire Mass. What can we do to change this so that the assembly can take ownership of what is rightfully theirs?

We have a similar problem in my parish and I really don’t know what the answer is other that the cantor has a wonderful voice and most of us just enjoy listening to him.

 

[Jennifer_G]

Of course, our government is just as guilty as the church music publishers. I cannot sing the National Anthem either. By the time it gets to “rockets red glare, bombs bursting in air” my voice bursts and cracks.

Now that’s one song everyone here in Baltimore should be able to sing.

 

[Mintaka]

Re: Star-Spangled Banner
It’s not the range; it’s the key it’s played in. There’s a music teacher somewhere whose annual crusade is to get people to play our national anthem in B something instead of the F something it’s usually in. (Low enough for the guys and everybody else.)

Re: cantors
I second the observation that we cantors are stuck singing what people give us. We don’t write up those dorky introductions and welcome messages, either. (And choirs don’t particularly like it when a new edition of a song comes out, and they’ve not only changed the words but certain bits of the melody – usually to some kind of syncopation that’s even trickier than the syncopation from before. Also, the odd tambourine and woodblock are not generally our idea.)

The only thing we can really do is sing what’s given to us as prayerfully as possible, or leave. But many of us do learn to do little things and make little improvements. Backing off the microphone, so as not to drown out the congregation, for example.

But things will get better. The tide is turning.

Re: learning parts
Actually, Vatican II said that every parish was supposed to teach all the parishioners to sing. Clearly we need to run singing schools on weeknights. Probably right after Bible study and right before Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[CarrieH]

Re: Star-Spangled Banner
It’s not the range; it’s the key it’s played in.

Bet most of you didn’t know that the Star-Spangled Banner has the exact same range as “I Am the Bread of Life.” It’s in a different key, though. Personally, I do agree that such a range is a bit extreme for the average non-trained singer.

I second the observation that we cantors are stuck singing what people give us.

And I agree, as well. In some churches a committee chooses the songs, in others the music directors choose them. The most leeway I ever have is sometimes picking which setting of the responsorial psalm to use, and that’s only for the masses where the choir doesn’t sing – otherwise, we use the one that the choir has practiced.

But things will get better. The tide is turning.

We can only hope!

 

[lak611]

Bet most of you didn’t know that the Star-Spangled Banner has the exact same range as “I Am the Bread of Life.” It’s in a different key, though. Personally, I do agree that such a range is a bit extreme for the average non-trained singer.

I can’t sing “I Am the Bread of LIfe” either. The chorus is way too high. Again, if there were 4 part hymnals, I would be able to sing the harmony parts. Since there are not any 4 part hymnals, if “I Am the Bread of Life” is chosen for Mass, I just stand there. So do about half of the women and all of the men. Only the sopranos sing it.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

I can’t sing “I Am the Bread of LIfe” either. The chorus is way too high. Again, if there were 4 part hymnals, I would be able to sing the harmony parts. Since there are not any 4 part hymnals, if “I Am the Bread of Life” is chosen for Mass, I just stand there. So do about half of the women and all of the men. Only the sopranos sing it.

I’m in the choir, and I can’t sing the refrain, either! Fortunately, we rarely (if ever) sing that one.

Mintaka:

The only thing we can really do is sing what’s given to us as prayerfully as possible, or leave. But many of us do learn to do little things and make little improvements. Backing off the microphone, so as not to drown out the congregation, for example.

My choir made a change in one of the songs yesterday – it was one of those newer songs with lots of bizarre syncopation and the time signature changing every other measure (songs like that always sound like hiccupping to me). There was one measure that just didn’t sound right with the six beats it had, instead of the eight it should have had. So we added two.

 

[Teakafrog]

It’s like that almost everywhere. My husband is a singer/cantor too, and it drives him nuts as well. The only thing that helps is to sing the same songs very frequently, so they know them. Then you’ll get a few people to sing. But in general, Catholics just don’t sing. Wish I knew why.

When we go to a protestant church with friends, the songs are horrible, but every person there sings them as loud as they can…I go hide in the nursery til it’s over!

 

[CarrieH]

I can’t sing “I Am the Bread of LIfe” either. The chorus is way too high. Again, if there were 4 part hymnals, I would be able to sing the harmony parts.

That song is familiar enough that you might not even get the single line of music in some missalettes – just the words. Not that I’m defending this – it drives me nuts!

Another problem with many of the newer songs is that they are not even written in four parts! If you were to look at the choral edition of “Voices as One” for example, you would find many songs which might have some harmonies on the refrain only, with the verses in unison. Some have the harmony part written full of ooohs and aaaahs, such as one might hear from backup singers accompanying a soloist. Others are straight unison throughout. So if you’re wanting traditional SATB choral writing, you won’t find much of that in the hymnals/songbooks written after 1985 or so.

We’d be using the Adoremus hymnal if it were up to me, but I’m just a poor humble cantor and flutist with no “say” in these matters.

 

[lak611]

Another problem with many of the newer songs is that they are not even written in four parts!

That leads me to think the songs are not written with congregational singing in mind. Only soloists with certain voices (usually soprano) are able to sing them.

 

[Sarabande]

That leads me to think the songs are not written with congregational singing in mind. Only soloists with certain voices (usually soprano) are able to sing them.

I would tend to agree with this especially for the newer hymns. Some newer hymns are composed well enough to stay within the lower ranges and not have difficult lines or syncopated measures. Even some of the newer, difficult hymns that people like are still not sung correctly by the congregation because they aren’t musicians, don’t know rhythm, etc. That’s not to put them down, because you don’t expect them to know what 3/2 time is or how to sing syncopated rhythms. If they don’t know how to count or read music, they won’t ever sound together. If you present hymns that are in 3/4, 4/4, etc. time without too many strange rhythms and without major jumping of intervals, they are much easier for a congregation to sing.

At our Cathedral where I am part of the music program, we do mostly traditional hymns or simpler newer hymns that stay within the range of an average person who does not have any vocal training or music training. Mostly everything stays within Middle C to C above middle C with the occasionaly D and E. We have found the hymns they sing out on mostly and to be together are the ones that are easier to grasp musically. But I think it also depends on the parish. Some parishes really love to sing. Others don’t. Our Cathedral parish is very small with tons of visitors, so our music selections are of melodies which would be normally recognized and known.

For Cantoring - As a classically-trained mezzo-soprano, professional singer and as a cantor, I try to stay as far away from the microphone as possible and as far from the “limelight” as possible. I’m there to add my prayer through music and to help the congregation along with the hymns. I"ve had a cantor once tell me I should be up there looking at the people and smiling at them - to “be engaging”. Personally, I’m not there to be “engaging”, but to add to prayer and to the liturgy. I don’t even “sing out” as I would if I was singing in an opera or recital, etc. because I believe singing as a cantor is much different than singing in secular venues. I actually would prefer to cantor from the loft, which is what we do for weddings and funerals because I really don’t want the congregation to know what I look like or who I am. I can receive my accolades on stage, in the recital hall or a master class. I do not want them or require them for mass, but I will always be kind and appreciative of congregants who thank me for my abilities in person.

 

[CarrieH]

That leads me to think the songs are not written with congregational singing in mind. Only soloists with certain voices (usually soprano) are able to sing them.

Yes. Too bad these make up the main portion of some of those newer songbooks which call themselves “contemporary hymnals.” If the people can’t sing this stuff, its use should be restricted, IMHO. I don’t like to feel as if I am giving a solo recital whenever I am called upon to serve as cantor.

 

[Brenda_V]

I just had to share this - I asked my Lutheran husband about the “four part harmony” being included in any hymnal he ever saw and he laughed - “who except a trained singer or musician would even know how to read the music!” he then said. Of course, he also said that he had never seen a hymnal like that either.

Then he asked me why I asked and I told him about this thread and he answered ever so straight faced “Because they are Catholics!” Which led to our discussing how every Catholic Church he knew of had a Choir so the people didn’t have to sing

:idea: An interesting thought:idea: , perhaps it is a hold over from the pre-Vat. 2 Mass days when the people had very little verbal participation including in song. Who knows, because I even remember the old Marian hymns and can sing some of them in Latin no less (with the words in front of me) and I am only 49 so most of my life has been with the Pauline Mass.

Brenda V.

 

[Journeyer11]

If I may offer a different opinion on this matter of singing… I believe the problem may actualy stem from the priests themselves. In a Catholic church when the Priest leads the parish through the mass, they READ the entire thing. They don’t do it from memory, from the heart, and put any feeling into the words. (Generally speaking… I’m sure some Priests do.) Everything is READ… If they put the book down and spoke with their hearts, they would inspire us more. I’ve inquired about this and the thinking of the church is to leave emotion out of it. They don’t want the priest to put himself into the Liturgy, but rather let the words stand for themselves. This, unfortunately leaves much of the parish uninspired, bored, and detached…And, I believe that carries over into the singing. If our Priests inspired us, made us feel they were talking directly to God, then we would follow suit with singing in praise. Does this make sense to anyone else? Thanks for listening.

Frank

 

[Servulus]

perhaps it is a hold over from the pre-Vat. 2 Mass days when the people had very little verbal participation including in song. Who knows, because I even remember the old Marian hymns and can sing some of them in Latin no less (with the words in front of me) and I am only 49 so most of my life has been with the Pauline Mass.

Brenda V.

I respectfully disagree, Brenda. Growing up in the '50s and into the '60s, we sang the *Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, *and *Pater Noster *as well as the chanted responses at Mass. There were also the hymns at Benediction. And if we didn’t sing, Sister would likely have a word with us. I still sing out, but I do notice that some Masses seem quieter than others.

 

[lak611]

:idea: An interesting thought:idea: , perhaps it is a hold over from the pre-Vat. 2 Mass days when the people had very little verbal participation including in song. Who knows, because I even remember the old Marian hymns and can sing some of them in Latin no less (with the words in front of me) and I am only 49 so most of my life has been with the Pauline Mass.

Brenda V.

You probably remember all the old Latin hymns because the choirs used to be made up of the schoolchildren. My parents had to sing in the choir for the high Mass when they were in school, so they learned all the Latin hymns. Nowadays, children do not even go to Mass daily in most Catholic schools (my parents said it was a requirement for them before school started–every day), and children’s choirs are a rarity.

 

[Sarabande]

If I may offer a different opinion on this matter of singing… I believe the problem may actualy stem from the priests themselves. In a Catholic church when the Priest leads the parish through the mass, they READ the entire thing. They don’t do it from memory, from the heart, and put any feeling into the words. (Generally speaking… I’m sure some Priests do.) Everything is READ… If they put the book down and spoke with their hearts, they would inspire us more. I’ve inquired about this and the thinking of the church is to leave emotion out of it. They don’t want the priest to put himself into the Liturgy, but rather let the words stand for themselves. This, unfortunately leaves much of the parish uninspired, bored, and detached…And, I believe that carries over into the singing. If our Priests inspired us, made us feel they were talking directly to God, then we would follow suit with singing in praise. Does this make sense to anyone else? Thanks for listening.

Frank

I think I see your point, but I know many priests who read, but you can tell that they are very fervent and meaningful. The idea of reading or singing from a book is a fairly old tradition. For example, sacred music was always sung using the scores even if you have the music memorized by heart. This is to emphasize that we are here to sing for God and for the liturgy and not to give a performance, since secular operas, recital and concerts are usually performed without the use of sheet music. Even secular concerts of sacred music still use this tradition. So, it really has nothing to do with having something memorized or not or what is perceived as coming from the heart.

I also don’t want to assume that a congregation that doesn’t sing is bored, uninspired or detached. For high masses, I prefer a good choir, as I am much more inspired by the highest forms of music by the highest talent that the Church can give. I’d rather not hear a congregation sing and am most spiritually inspired when I hear an incredibly talented choir sing for such a mass, their voices soaring to heaven from the choir loft behind me. But as a cantor, it is my job to lead the congregation in song. I’m being paid to do this. If the churches don’t get singers that are musicians and have at least some level of vocal training to lead the congregation, people will definitely be uninspired to sing. I noticed that the worse the cantor, the less people sing. The better the cantor the more they will sing. Also, if you have really bad organists or instrumentalists, that also can lend to the lack of congregational singing. People will be more timid to sing if an organ and/or cantor can’t sufficiently support the congregation.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Get rid of most of simple songs about air and breezes and everyone being lovey dovey and reclaim the Gregorian Chant. Teach people to use it and then use it consistently. Most of the songs in the Latin rite churches are designed to high soprano and are not conducive to male voices.

We have no trouble getting people to sing along with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Just reclaim your patrimony with gusto and slough off the Prostestant lite music that has become so common place in many Latin rite Catholic Churches.

CDL

 

[Brenda_V]

I respectfully disagree, Brenda. Growing up in the '50s and into the '60s, we sang the *Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, *and *Pater Noster *as well as the chanted responses at Mass. There were also the hymns at Benediction. And if we didn’t sing, Sister would likely have a word with us. I still sing out, but I do notice that some Masses seem quieter than others.

Servulus - I accept your disagreement . I don’t remember much about the Mass before the Vernacular became common which is why I gave my age and also said I do remember the old Latin songs when they are sung at Mass - I seem to just fall right back into singng them without difficulty so it must be somewhere in the recesses of my brain - something I heard at least once a week and it stuck in there.

Just so you do know, I do remember some of the pre-Vat. 2 Masses as I made my First Communion at one and I do remember that.

Brenda V.

 

[EHRAM]

I’m a former Protestant, and I have to admit that as an alto who can read music (though imperfectly) I really miss the hymnals with harmony parts. I have yet to see one in a Catholic church. Most of the Protestant churches (Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, UCC, Disciples of Christ, etc. to name a few) have them.

I have one theory about why Protestants sing more than Catholics. Many Protestants consider singing to God to be a form of worship of God. From a Catholic perspective, singing to someone is not worship; worship is only offering the holy sacrife of the mass. Singing songs to Mary is not worship of Mary, but Protestants mistakenly accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary, because for them, singing songs to God is worshipping God.

Also, Protestants tend to take the commands of the Bible (e.g. “Sing…”) more literally and may consider it a sin to refrain from singing.

Also, when I am traveling and attending mass at an unfamiliar parish, the service music for the mass parts (Gloria, Sanctus, etc.) may also be new to me. Sometimes I can find it in the hymnal, sometimes not. Sometimes by the time I find it in the hymnal, it is over. I may know the words, but I don’t like to sing if I keep having to guess what the next note is going to be. I wish the service music used by a parish was kept in the pews.

Are children in Catholic schools taught basic musical skills such as how to read music or sing the harmony parts?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

The best persons to teach music to children are their parents. The best place is during mass as they watch and join in with their parents.

CDL