The Ontological Argument

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Hey Ted and Hui,

St. Tom only explicitly rejected the weaker form of the OA, not the stronger version of Prosl. IIIl.

But other scholastics did grasp the true principle and embrace it. e.g. Bonaventure.
 
Hey Ted,

If you agree with this,
Code:
Quote:
He conclusively reduced the logical possibilities to two: either God exists necessarily or the very idea of God is nonsense.

It doesn’t make sense to say this:
But still, I don’t think Anselm’s hypothetical proves anything abour reality. God WOULD have to exist IF he existed at all. That doesn’t prove he does, only that IF he did, it would be of necessity.

A triangle, a polygon with three-sides on a plane, WOULD have to have 180degrees total IF it existed at all. That doesn’t prove that any triangle actually exists anywhere.
If one accepts the idea of the GCB as meaningful, then there is no IF. If one thinks the idea is nonsense, then there is no point in speculating. e.g. we don’t ponder whether round squares exist.

The triangle example isn’t apt. Whether or not a triangle concretely exists anywhere is a contingent fact. God, the GCB, is in a different category by definition.

Again, the fight is over the meaningfulness of the idea. Now some folks, the logical positivists, from the outset reject the possibility of there being a priori truth. But we from Catholic Christian tradition do not deny that such truths are discoverable. Indeed, St. Anselm discovered the most important of all.

And some pretty smart folks, Whitehead for example, agree with him. There are metaphysical truths that are necessarily true.

kordially

karl
 
Furman,

Don’t know much about S5 and all that. Just interact with the principle from Prosl III on its own terms and tell me it doesn’t make sense. I suggest you get a copy of Hartshorne’s Anselm’s Discovery.
 
What was you like before?

I was in the shallows. I had to learn deep-sea diving to follow Anselm.
 
I have to admit that I likewise found the argument to be lacking substance, even when I was an agnostic. For me the crux of the problem is that “greater” is determined by human standards. Now, if God exists, then we may believe that these standards by which we judge things are actually meaningful, and have some ground in truth. But if God didn’t exist, then what possible reason could we have to think that one particular thing was “better” than another. What would better mean? Would it not be one more construct? The trouble for myself is that without God, the standard by which we judge doesn’t exist.

Now, that the “greater” we conceive of in this argument seems so self-evidently true would seem to point to the existence of God. But if God didn’t exist, we would simply have to pass it off as another odd intuition with no grounding in reality, much like we would natural law. I don’t think it works well as a “proof” on its own, but I think it works well as one of the infinite signs pointing to Him if we will but open our eyes to the totality of truth.
 
Hey CTenor,

“For me the crux of the problem is that “greater” is determined by human standards.”

The true principle of the OA is that it is greater to exist necessarily than contingently. How would one argue that this assessment of the relative value of two modes of existence is just based on mere human standards? In what universe would the principle not be true?

kordially

karl
 
Just so we’re on the same page, here is the version of the argument that I am familiar with:
  1. It is greater for a thing to exist in the mind and in reality than in the mind alone.
  2. “God” means “that than which a greater cannot be thought.”
  3. Suppose that God exists in the mind but not in reality.
  4. Then a greater than God could be thought (namely, a being that has all the qualities our thought of God has plus real existence).
  5. But this is impossible, for God is “that than which a greater cannot be thought.”
  6. Therefore God exists in the mind and in reality.
Let me raise another point here first. Why is it that that which is “greater” must be so? The unspoken assumption here is that we DO live in a universe where that which is greater always IS. But we have no assurance that is the case. In fact, the Christian story depends on that seeming to not be the case, for we recognize that the universe and ourselves are fallen.

Now, because we know the full story, we also know that we are in the greatest universe possible, because beings given free will can/do make mistakes, and it is greater to have beings with free will that can make mistakes than those that cannot. Else we would be mere machines, without the immensity of a soul.

However, unless we know the Christian story is true through other means, we have no reason to suppose the universe tends towards that which is greatest. Therefore, we have no reason to assume that “that which is greater” would be, even if we agreed upon what that “greater” thing is.

Returning more to the point mentioned by Krebsbach, granting that we live in a universe where “that which is greater must be”, why must we grant that greatness in that particular way? An athiest might suggest that it is a greater story that the universe had no meaning, and humans later imbue the universe with meaning. This could occur over millions of years (still to come), and fill and discover the universe with love, joy, and all the things we assume the next the universe will be in the Christian worldview when Christ comes again. I don’t think it convincing myself, but until we firmly establish a ground for greatness, apart from a standard which pre-supposes the truth of Christianity, it would be very difficult to convince someone that the Christian conception of the “greatest” truly is the greatest.

In my mind, the only arguments for God’s existence which are convincing on their own are those which steer clear of values. They instead rely on metaphysical truths that can be known to all (who truly wish to be reasonable), like causation, principle of radical contingency, etc. This may not be the case for some others, but for myself, only those arguments can anchor my belief.

Now, I say these things having given only a little bit of thought to the ontological argument. From the outset I was unconvinced, and so discarded it in favour of more convincing arguments. If my unrefined thinking on the matter should be found wanting, I look forward to seeing the argument defended. God bless,

Scott
 
Hey Scott,

Thanks for yer thoughts on the the OA.

The version of the OA you presented is the weaker and oft refuted form from Proslogium II. The stronger version fro Prosl. III goes something like this:
Code:
1.  It is greater for a thing to exist necessarily than contingently.
2. "God" means "that than which a greater cannot be thought." God is the Greatest Conceivable Being, the Unsurpassable One.
  1. Suppose that God exists contingently. IOW, he had a beginning, he might not have been, he could stop existing tomorrow.
  2. Then a greater than God could be thought (namely, a being that has all the qualities our thought of God has plus necessary existence).
    5. But this is impossible, for God is “that than which a greater cannot be thought.”
    6. Therefore God exists necessarily.
 
Before addressing your ‘greater’ question, it is important to understand why Anselm chose a religious definition of God. To be God is to be such that “non greater can be conceived.” Why would we worship any other but the “bestest?” If we can conceive of greater being, th logic of worship drives us (if we are reasonable) to worship the greater god rather than the lesser god. So we worship and exalt the greatest conceivable being and call Him God.
 
Worship requires the unqualified exaltation of its object beyond all possible rivalry, as Charles Harsthorne put it.
Why is it that that which is “greater” must be so? The unspoken assumption here is that we DO live in a universe where that which is greater always IS. But we have no assurance that is the case.
Well let’s define “greater” in the fashion of Anselm. x is greater than y insofar as x is, and y is not, something ‘which it is better to be than not to be.’ Again, if God is going to be the universal object of worship, then God cannot have a superior.

If we assume the existence of relative value in all that which exists, then some beings will be greater or have more value (be better) than udders.

From our poor pitiful, finite and fallen human state, we readily recognize greatness among ourselves. And when we contemplate the universe and all that is in it, we recognize that there must be greatness that surpasses ourselves. And even if we assumed that our universe is all there is, we would have to say the entirety of it would have to be the greatest and unsurpassible reality. There will always be the greatest.
 
Getting back to the OA in general, folks misunderstand its import. What Anslem accomplished was a narrowing of the issues. he conclusively demonstrated that either God exists necessarily, or the very idea of God is nonsense.

This reminds of the ancient apologetic for the divinity of Christ. Either Jesus is God or he is a very bad man. (later expanded by the likes of Lewis, McDowall , Kreeft, et al). If we are going to be consistent, there is a narrowing of options.

Now this isn’t to say that Anselm offered an unassailable demonstration for God’s existence. Battles have to be waged on behalf of the meaningfulness of definition of God. But to my satisfaction it has withstood all attacks.
 
A few weeks back I made a comment on the ontological argument that generated some feed back. One of the things that I said is that the modal version of the ontological argument (MOA) depends on the modal logic of S5 and S5 is dubious. Hence, the MOA is dubious as well. And this comment generated a question and a complaint: What is S5? Prove that S5 is suspect.

To begin an answer we must construct a basic logic for handling the concepts of “possibility” and “necessity”. That is, we must construct a basic modal logic that we will call K (after Kripkie):

Guide to symbols: P • Q reads P and Q
P v Q reads P or Q
P ⊃ Q reads If P then Q
P ≡ Q reads P if and only if Q
-P reads It is not the case that P
cP reads It is necessary that P
⋄P reads It is possible that P

K = Normal Predicate Logic:
Code:
	Rules of Inference:
	P ⊃ Q plus P 			entails Q (Modus Pones)
	P ⊃ Q plus –Q 		entails –P (Modus Tollens) 
	P ⊃ Q plus Q ⊃ R 		entails P ⊃ R (Hypothetical Syllogism)
	P v Q plus –P 			entails Q (Disjunctive Syllogism)
	P v Q plus P ⊃ R plus Q ⊃ R 	entails R (Simple Dilemma)
	P v Q plus P ⊃ R plus Q ⊃ S 	entails R v S (Constructive Dilemma)
	P • Q 				entails P (Simplification)
	P plus Q 			entails P • Q (Conjunction)
	P 				entails P v (anything) (Addition)
Rules of Replacement:
  • (P • Q) is equivalent to -P v –Q DeMorgan’s Rule
  • (P v Q) is equivalent to -P • -Q DeMorgan’s Rule
    (P • Q) is equivalent to (Q • P) Commutativity
    (P v Q) is equivalent to (Q v P) Commutativity
    [P • (Q • R)] is equivalent to (P • Q) • R] Associativity
    [P v (Q v R)] is equivalent to (P v Q) v R] Associativity
    P is equivalent to - -P Double Negation
    P ⊃ Q is equivalent to -Q ⊃ -P Transposition
    P ⊃ Q is equivalent to -P v Q Material Implication
    (P ≡ Q) is equivalent to (P ⊃ Q) • (Q ⊃ P) Mat. Equiv.
    (P • Q) ⊃ R] is equivalent to [P ⊃ (Q ⊃ R)] Exportation
    P • P is equivalent to P Tautology
    P v P is equivalent to P Tautology
  • (unary) operators for possibility and necessity

    cP is equivalent to - ⋄ -P
    ⋄P is equivalent to -c-P
  • The Distribution Axiom

    c (P ⊃ Q) is equivalent to cP ⊃ c Q
But K doesn’t allow us to do (prove) things that we should be able to do (prove). So we strengthen K to S4:

S4 = K
Code:
+ 	Reflexivity
	cP ⊃ P

+	Something Called 4
	 cP ⊃ c cP
But some want a modal system that allows them to do (prove) even more, S5. They construct S5 as follows:

S5 = K
Code:
+ 	Reflexivity
	cP ⊃ P

+	Something called E
	⋄P ⊃ c⋄P
and all of this seems very innocent. But S5 entails the dubious modal claim:
Code:
⋄cP ⊃ P	= If it is possible that it is necessary that P then P.
Let us call the above claim “magic” because of its amazing powers. Here is the (reductio) proof that S5 entails magic.
  1. -(⋄cP ⊃ P) ACP: Assumption for conditional proof.
  2. ⋄cP • -P From 1 by MI and DM
  3. -P From 2 by SIMP
  4. ⋄-P ⊃ c⋄-P An instance of E.
  5. -P ⊃ ⋄-P
  6. -P ⊃ c⋄-P From 4 and 5 by HS
  7. c⋄-P From 3 and 6 by MP
  8. c-cP From 7 by definition
  9. -⋄cP From 8 by definition
  10. ⋄cP From 2 by SIMP
  11. -(⋄cP ⊃ P) ⊃ (⋄cP • -⋄cP) From 1 – 10, Conditional Proof
    • (⋄cP • -⋄cP) Tautology
  12. Code:
    (⋄cP ⊃ P)		From 11 and 12 by MT
So, S5 leads to magic, (⋄cP ⊃ P). And magic is the key to the MOA:

(1) ⋄c(God exist) ⊃ God Exist. fl an instantiation of magic
That is: If it is possible that it is necessary that God exist then God exist.
(2) ⋄c(God exist)
That is: It is possible that it is necessary that God exist.
(3) Therefore, God exist.

So, by a little bit of magic we have proved that God exists, or have we? First, think about what premise (2) is claiming: It is possible that necessarily God exists. But if ⋄X, doesn’t this suggest that ⋄-X In this case, isn’t it also possible that necessarily God doesn’t exist? Sure it is. And if it is, couldn’t we run the counter-MOA?:

(1) ⋄c(God doesn’t exist) ⊃ God doesn’t exist.
That is: If it is possible that it is necessary that God doesn’t exist then God doesn’t exist.
(2) ⋄c(God doesn’t exist)
That is, it is possible that it is necessary that God doesn’t exist.
(3) Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
 
FurmanTM:

I didn’t want to quote your use of symbolic logic for two reasons. The first reason is that it is too long. The second reason is the symbolic logic is silly.

Reflecting on the ontological argument we must remember that the ontological argument was not intended to be an ontological argument but rather a reflection on the existence of God. Later it was formalized. Now that in mind the whole ontological argument is silly because in the context of the whole work there is an presumption of the existence of God by the very language used in setting the stage. However, there are insights that can be gained and those insights were used throughly by St. Thomas and others.

Considering the context of the Ontological Argument I think that it is often abused and as such accused of being something that it is not - a proof for the existence of God. Rather instead of a wholistic proof for the existence such as the combined force of the so called “ways of Thomas” it is a discussion that narrows the argument (as has been said above) concerning the existence of God. Since the syllogisms that it has are valid the conclusions themselves are beyond reproach but rather rightly said above a few of the premises are subject to scrutiny. However, it remains my contention that in context it as a whole is an excellent demonstration for the existence of God. Without reading the whole text and only relying on the base syllogism discussions for or against the argument are quasi strawmen.
 
well…if “whoever that is” is the greatest, then he/she/it should exist. right? because if not, then he/she/it is not the greatest in the first place.😃
 
Wouldnt it be easier to say,“No matter how good you are there is somebody better.”. 😃
 
well…if “whoever that is” is the greatest, then he/she/it should exist. right? because if not, then he/she/it is not the greatest in the first place.😃
Only if it is ‘that than which none greater can be thought/conceived’, otherwise no, because I could say the greatest unicorn, if no unicorns exist in reality and only exist in possibility/idea/whatever, what St. Anselm does is prove the concept of ‘that than which none greater can be thought/conceived’ neccesarily means the reality, his version is the most genious that I have seen, I recommend his version first first. I think his actually works.
 
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