The ordination of women as priests

[FAB]

The word “Catholics” seems inappropriate for some posters. Guardian Wolf: im not referring to you. One of the great 'Nun" saints felt the way that you do; so youre not alone. Forgotten her name.

If some of you other posters regard youselves as Catholics, then its obvious that youve no interest in the Truth which has already been posted here, almost ad nauseum, as well as on who knows how many other threads.

Have you been so brainwashed by the radical feminists that you`ve been blinded?
.
Or are some of you not even “Catholics”, but are simply here to bait us, to cause division, which would make a certain fallen spirit happy?

The issue of the role of women is one that will continue to be debated. As repeated stated the idea of women priest is not possible for all the reasons stated.
To make progress on the issue, it needs to be discussed were they can serve. One area is as professors and theologians, who would not be priests, but certainly be able to instruct them. There are many in existance now, but because they are not dressed in black with a roman collar, the importance of thier work is missed. They are consulting with priest, bishops and even the pope. The influence they have is very strong and they are respected.
If then idea is to have a voice in the church, these women have it.
As it has been quoted from JPII all vocations are open to women exdcept the priesthood.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Rence]

As I said in my first post on this thread, due to my observance of the lack of priests where I live (and my first home is over 500 miles away from my current home), I believe that if the Church doesn’t do something to rectify the problem, it will affect parishioners.

I mentioned 1) consolidating parishes 2) the possibility of allowing priests to marry again and/or 3) ordination of women. I also said I would be very happy if women were ordained. I didn’t say I was picketing the Vatican, writing nasty grams to the Pope, encouraging women to defy the Pope, rallying for changes in the schools and churches, looking for a denomination that could or would accomodate my wishes, yadda yadda. I just said I would be happy about it.

I also said that I didn’t agree with the teachings as they were interpreted in explanation of why women can’t be priests. I also said that it is in my opinion that certain things pointing to possibility of bigger roles of women in the early Church were either ignored or misinterpreted. I hate to burst your bubbles, but you don’t have to agree with everything in order to be Catholic, you just have to follow it. Since when does a child have to like the rules set down by parents? All that is expected is that they obey the rules and someday they will understand them. This is how I was raised by my “holy roller” family: even if you don’t agree, you follow the rules. Maybe you’ll understand later.

If the gates of Hell can’t prevail against the True Church, why is my wish so important to so-called practicing Catholics such that I have been accused of being a heretic, and teaching heresy? Honestly, where am I teaching? Hello? Really, how dare you speak to me in that manner. Who are you and who gives you the authority? According to the Church you should be praying for me and praying for my 'enlightenment" if you think I am in err. You should be teaching, not brow-beating. What was it about my wish that makes some people on this thread act so un-Christian, so uncharitable, so nasty, and so un-God-like? How dare you flame me for my opinion. My opinion doesn’t hurt anyone. If you feel I have challenged you to convince me that you’re right and I’m wrong, you realize that instead of proving your point, you make me feel (rightfully so) that you would stone me to death if you could or “put me to the question”. Thankfully and rightfully, the Church doesn’t have that power anymore, and neither do you. I won’t be muzzled by anyone. I will continue to speak my mind without denying what the Church teaches. That’s my right. Now, with all due respect to My Lord, if you are following God’s law, why on earth would I want to be a part of your denomination with the example you have set? The fact is, you’re NOT following the law. You’re following your own rules and being Cafeteria Catholics yourselves. Pot meet Kettle.

You can go ahead and try to run me off, but it’s not going to happen because I am here to network, to learn, and to revisit areas I haven’t in years. I’ve learned a lot since I’ve been on this forum. And some of you on this thread are the reason why, “I haven’t in years”. Speaking one’s opinion without denying the teachings of the Church is NOT heresy. Speaking one’s opinion and claiming that they’re the Church’s teachings is heresy. I know the difference very well, and so do you. I do not deny the teachings of the Church, I disagree with them in this matter and hope they change with additional enlightment. How is that wrong? If it’s not God’s will, and the gates of Hell can’t prevail, then my prayers won’t change the Churches teachings, positions and traditions (notice the small “t”) will they? God will hear my prayers and say, “yes”, “no”, “not yet” as He always answers every prayer. Live with it.

What I want to know (and I’m not asking for an answer, I already know the answer), is that despite your opinions, relative knowledge and relative experience, is: if the Holy Father does make that change, what will YOU do? Will you become a Cafeteria Catholic and deny his authority and infallibility? or will you put your money where your mouth is, suck it up, and stand by your Holy Father? “It’ll never happen” is not an answer to my question. It really doesn’t matter what the topic is. The question is: If the Holy Father makes or changes a policy not to your liking and against your wishes and interpretations, will you still honor his authority and infallibility? or will you have a tantrum like some people and become another version of the Cafeteria Catholic? Pot meet Kettle. Because although I feel strongly about MY side of the arguement, I still stand by my Holy Father. That’s more than I can say of some of you who are in direct disobedience by your actions in attacking me.

From this thread I have learned only one thing (besides the fact that Traditional Catholics can be very rude, uncharitable and insultive when you don’t agree with them): That obviously they don’t feel so strongly about where their rules and teachings come from - because the opinions and prayers of those who don’t agree with them are a threat to them. You’re so angry because you think it might actually happen. THAT is what bothers you the most. It has nothing to do with what I would love to see, or what I pray for.

 

[Toni]

Or are some of you not even “Catholics”, but are simply here to bait us, to cause division, which would make a certain fallen spirit happy?

It really makes me wonder I have not posted in many months, and now after looking at the traditional Catholic site I am wondering why I am here.
But I being a woman am very thankful that I have no desire to fill the shoes of the holy priests that I work with. As I am sure there is a large majority of men who would never want to suffer the pain of having a child.
Jesus made the laws, we follow the laws, and then we can call ourselves true Roman Catholics.
It’s when we decide to pick and chose laws, doctrines, or dogmas, that we become Cafeteria Catholic’s. Either you follow Rome or you don’t.

 

[Rob_Brown]

Ok so first off I will admit that I did not read every post in this thread, I do not have the time at the moment but I will read it later. I am also not sure if anyone else has pointed this out yet but the reason the woman will NEVER be ordained is simple, the Church was not given authority to ordain woman so it will NOT HAPPEN EVER, this is one of the reasons that I am joining the RCC. Now don’t get me wrong I believe that men and woman are equal however we have different roles in ministry, a woman can be a great benefit as an instructor and catechist, and that is a very important role. The role of a Priest is much different (obviously) and it is a role that is fulfilled by a man not by a woman! I am sorry if I offend anyone who is more modernist however we must follow church teaching and the laws that God has put in place.

There thats my rant for now, feel free to tear me to shreds if ya like lol

God Bless

 

[Guardian_Wolf]

This will be my last post on this thread. Not the last on the forum, but I’ve said my bit on the topic, and now its time to head out. ^^ Before I accidentally cause a homicide, lol.

I wanted to apologize. My last couple posts were way to emotionally charged, and I was worried those I was commenting to might see it as rude, or as an attack.

All I can say is that when I woke up this morning, to see myself a target in the middle of a flame war, for something I did not do, I lost it. lol, you all kinda scared me outta my wits. ^^

So if I came off rude at all, in any way, to any one, I humbly offer my apologies.

I also want to apologize for agreeing with Rence. It was obvious that tempers were getting heated…and I had a gut feeling that my comment of agreeing with one (one, not all) of his statements, would only anger people more. For that I am sorry. I guess I got what I deserved.

So I will leave with this final statement. As for my actual stance on this whole silly topic, FidesSpesCarita got it right, and I appreciate their defense.

She stated the she had dreams of becoming a priest. And that she has wished to have been born a man so that she could have done so. She did not say she disagrees with only allowing men to be priests (since that is God’s decision) and in fact stated that she accepts it as truth. This is one point here that should be left alone.

Peace, and God Bless.

Guardian Wolf

 

[CradleCath]

With the male priests disappearing, the closing of seminaries due to lack of admissions, with no one to replace the old, with general dissatisfaction among the clergy and potential-clergy, it’s like all other things that are NON ISSUES FOR SOME PEOPLE: As with all things, it’ll only take time. Only time will tell. And things will keep getting worse until something is done to make it better. I’d like to see a jump in seminary admissions, but sadly, I just don’t see that happening.

**
I find it hard to believe that if the Holy Fathers kept changing their minds about abortion in the very early Church, that this too won’t change. Maybe I’ll see it, maybe I won’t, but I’m sure it’ll happen. **

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

The Fathers did not change their minds about abortion. Abortion has been a grevious sin since the earliest days of the Church. In fact, the sin of abortion is mentioned in one of the earliest available documents…the Didache, otherwise known as the teaching of the twelve Apostles.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Excuse me. I certainly do not see myself as being “of the cafeteria.” This is also a discussion about why there should not be female priests.

Since when was the traditional Catholicism site filled with cafeteria Catholic’s?

 

[Young_Thinker]

And what is wrong with saying that Saint**** Mary Magdalene became holy, though she had previously not been?

 

[Young_Thinker]

The Virgin is essentially the only lady in the Church. So, would not it be, for instance, almost blasphemous for there to ever be a female pope?

 

[ac_claire]

Rence, I appreciate your attempts to explain your position, and your thoughtful and articulate posts. (I hate it when people here try to make their point using insults and one-liners.) But do you understand that the Church isn’t a democracy? By that I mean, on matters of doctrine, discipline and teachings on faith and morals, it doesn’t matter in the slightest that some individual Catholics (or even if, as you suggest, MANY Catholics) believe that things should be done differently.

God Himself, through Christ, has given the Church the authority to teach and lead the faithful. Individual Catholics don’t have this authority. The idea is we have to trust the Church in this regard, or we’re lost. Like sheep who wander away from the flock and the Shepherd. Does that make sense?

 

[Young_Thinker]

Rence, I appreciate your attempts to explain your position, and your thoughtful and articulate posts. (I hate it when people here try to make their point using insults and one-liners.) But do you understand that the Church isn’t a democracy? By that I mean, on matters of doctrine, discipline and teachings on faith and morals, it doesn’t matter in the slightest that some individual Catholics (or even if, as you suggest, MANY Catholics) believe that things should be done differently.

God Himself, through Christ, has given the Church the authority to teach and lead the faithful. Individual Catholics don’t have this authority. The idea is we have to trust the Church in this regard, or we’re lost. Like sheep who wander away from the flock and the Shepherd. Does that make sense?

Thank you. I am confused, though, since I accept the absolute authority of the Pope(yet while also favoring Traditionalism) and was arguing against change of tradition(i.e. allowing female ordination).

 

[Rence]

Rence, I appreciate your attempts to explain your position, and your thoughtful and articulate posts. (I hate it when people here try to make their point using insults and one-liners.) But do you understand that the Church isn’t a democracy?

**Yes, I do. That’s why I follow it, despite having a problem believing it. That’s why I am not claiming that women are allowed to be ordained, when in fact, they are not. That’s why I am not picketing or protesting, because I know it’s a rule, even though I don’t agree with it. I am not encouraging anyone to defy the Pope, because it’s a rule. Instead, when people say they would like or wouldn’t mind women priests, I just encourage them to pray. I never said we should vote on the matter.
**

By that I mean, on matters of doctrine, discipline and teachings on faith and morals, it doesn’t matter in the slightest that some individual Catholics (or even if, as you suggest, MANY Catholics) believe that things should be done differently.

You’re right, it doesn’t matter at all. That’s why I acknowlede that my opinions are my personal opinions and not doctrine, discipline, and teachings on faith and morals. From the beginning I said they were my opinions. On a public forum, you will get many opinions. And really, the only one that matters is your own.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

You could always ask Him…

I have. I don’t take the loss of my faith lightly. I went through a lot in my life, and I was a devout Catholic until the age of 12. I tried, hard, to reconcile things that I didn’t agree with and my faith. At 12, I started to gradually lose faith. I’ve been through a lot, and I tried sincerely to keep my faith. I talked to my favorite priest, I went on a religious prayer retreat, I tried praying on it and thinking on it. At 18, I realized that I disagreed with far too much, and stopped taking communion and attending church. It wasn’t easy, but I couldn’t keep going to church, or take communion when I really didn’t believe it. I felt that would be the most disrespectful thing. If I go back, I go back, because I don’t rule anything out, but right now, I’m happy.

This is a very key point: Women have always played a key role in the Church. We know about the early deaconesses, they helped with the baptism of women. Nuns, religious sisters, and consecrated virgins have shouldered so much of the Church’s praying power, we would not be where we are without them. Women have been martyrs, teachers, nurses, and spreaders of the Good News. They simply do not receive Holy Orders.

True, and again, thank you for answering my questions sincerely. You are the only other poster who answered me, and didn’t just write me off and flip out on me for “Questioning God”. I really appreciate it. You are one of the people who come to mind when I think of someone spreading Christ’s love. It’s really awesome!

I think this is part of my point, that gender permeates our entire self, and if you perhaps didn’t play with Barbies, then maybe that shows that Barbies are not a necessary ingredient to a female being.

Even though “Every girl wants one” I guess I’ve never felt like my gender meant anything to me. Maybe it’s subconscious, but it really never made any difference to me. Again, I am a weird kid

 

[ac_claire]

Rense, thanks for replying. I understand that you accept what the Church teaches about the priesthood…inasmuch as you understand that this is, in fact, what the Church teaches even though you don’t agree with it.

The not agreeing with it part is what confuses me. If you have enough faith in the Church that you insist on following it (as you said) no matter what, then why don’t you believe what the Church teaches about itself? Namely that it’s teaching authority is infallible because it flows from the Holy Spirit? Therefore the teachings on the priesthood are also inspired by the Holy Spirit. In other words, if I think that the Church can be soooo fallible and misguided as to support some idea that I completely reject, then *why *would I follow this Church at all?

 

[Lutheranteach]

]
and since when scholars were in charge of the Faith?

where did you get the idea that women have been ordained as deacons in teh Church?

just imagine what had happened to the Church by now if she given to the desires of people at the time?

It was my understanding their opinion was specifically asked for by the vatican

 

[Rence]

The not agreeing with it part is what confuses me. If you have enough faith in the Church that you insist on following it (as you said) no matter what, then why don’t you believe what the Church teaches about itself? Namely that it’s teaching authority is infallible because it flows from the Holy Spirit? Therefore the teachings on the priesthood are also inspired by the Holy Spirit. In other words, if I think that the Church can be soooo fallible and misguided as to support some idea that I completely reject, then *why *would I follow this Church at all?

Being that you are a Traditional Catholic, I’m confused about what’s confusing you. By your rationale, I should not follow the Church at all if I don’t agree with it all. However, by doing that, I would deny the Eucharist, The Trinity, The Immaculate Conception, the contributions of the Catholic Church that I actually do understand along with Her Traditions, among other things. Sooooo, say you’re married to someone. And that someone has qualities that you love, and has maybe one or two that you don’t undersand or don’t agree with or that you don’t like. By your rationale, most people should run to their divorce lawyers, while at the same time, we’re told to work it out, to stick it out, to make an effort to live as one. So, as a practicing TC, you’re recommendation is to forgo the rest of the goodness that comes from the Church because I don’t agree with a particular teaching. I’m sorry, but I don’t agree I have to throw away all the other goodness because I disagree with something. Again, you don’t have to agree with everything.

And I’d like to correct a misrepresentation: You said, “If you have enough faith in the Church that you insist on following it (as you said) no matter what…: I didn’t say that.* I said with regards to the subject of this thread, “That’s why I follow it, despite having a problem believing it. That’s why I am not claiming that women are allowed to be ordained, when in fact, they are not. That’s why I am not picketing or protesting, because I know it’s a rule, even though I don’t agree with it. I am not encouraging anyone to defy the Pope, because it’s a rule. Instead, when people say they would like or wouldn’t mind women priests, I just encourage them to pray. I never said we should vote on the matter.” And “acknowlede that my opinions are my personal opinions and not doctrine, discipline, and teachings on faith and morals. From the beginning I said they were my opinions. On a public forum, you will get many opinions.” *

I’m not a robot. I’m a living breathing human being and I don’t know that I follow anything “no matter what”. But I know it’s not what I said, so please don’t say I said that.

 

[ac_claire]

Being that you are a Traditional Catholic, I’m confused about what’s confusing you. By your rationale, I should not follow the Church at all if I don’t agree with it all. However, by doing that, I would deny the Eucharist, The Trinity, The Immaculate Conception, the contributions of the Catholic Church that I actually do understand along with Her Traditions, among other things. Sooooo, say you’re married to someone. And that someone has qualities that you love, and has maybe one or two that you don’t undersand or don’t agree with or that you don’t like. By your rationale, most people should run to their divorce lawyers, while at the same time, we’re told to work it out, to stick it out, to make an effort to live as one. So, as a practicing TC, you’re recommendation is to forgo the rest of the goodness that comes from the Church because I don’t agree with a particular teaching. I’m sorry, but I don’t agree I have to throw away all the other goodness because I disagree with something. Again, you don’t have to agree with everything.

Re: following the church “no matter what”…fair enough. Now *I’d *like to clear up a misrepresentation. I do not consider myself a “Traditional Catholic” (capital T- as the term is used here at CAF). To believe in all that the Church teaches = actually Catholic, not “Traditional” Catholic. And I’ve never suggested that I am a TC. I’m merely Catholic.

As far as my confusion, it’s sincere. By what you’ve said, can I gather then that you only believe in the things that the Church teaches which you understand, or which you like? I don’t mean this to sound harsh, but I very much do not understand that kind of “faith” at all. There’s no leap or real trust involved…It’s just, keeping the things that strike your fancy and throwing out the rest. The marriage analogy doesn’t really work because human beings are fallible and imperfect. We’re talking about God and the Church here.

You’re right that the things you mention (Eucharist, Our Lady, etc.) are wonderful doctrines and sacraments, and no I’m not suggesting that you reject them too. But how can you believe they are true if you don’t trust the Church which gave them to you? If the Church is wrong about the priesthood, then how do you know it’s right about the Eucharist and the Blessed Mother? That’s what I don’t understand…basically, what do you base your faith on if not on objective truth?

This is absolutely a sincere query and not an attempt to “make a point” or start a debate.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Re: following the church “no matter what”…fair enough. Now *I’d *like to clear up a misrepresentation. I do not consider myself a “Traditional Catholic” (capital T- as the term is used here at CAF). To believe in all that the Church teaches = actually Catholic, not “Traditional” Catholic. And I’ve never suggested that I am a TC. I’m merely Catholic.

I consider myself a Traditional Catholic, not because I feel that is “better” or “more correct” but simply because I like what I have seen of the old ways more than I like what I see now. That does NOT mean that the way the Church celebrates the sacraments today is bad, inaccuracte, incorrect, or apostatized. In what I believe i am absolutely not the definition of TC, I am a Capital C, papist, magisterium following Catholic. I know you werent referring to me, but I wanted to bring this up for a second here.

As far as my confusion, it’s sincere. By what you’ve said, can I gather then that you only believe in the things that the Church teaches which you understand, or which you like? I don’t mean this to sound harsh, but I very much do not understand that kind of “faith” at all. There’s no leap or real trust involved…It’s just, keeping the things that strike your fancy and throwing out the rest. The marriage analogy doesn’t really work because human beings are fallible and imperfect. We’re talking about God and the Church here.

You’re right that the things you mention (Eucharist, Our Lady, etc.) are wonderful doctrines and sacraments, and no I’m not suggesting that you reject them too. But how can you believe they are true if you don’t trust the Church which gave them to you? If the Church is wrong about the priesthood, then how do you know it’s right about the Eucharist and the Blessed Mother? That’s what I don’t understand…basically, what do you base your faith on if not on objective truth?

This is absolutely a sincere query and not an attempt to “make a point” or start a debate.

See above in blue. That is the question I have for the people who say “I follow the Church, but I disagree”.

Deinition of disagree:

dis·a·gree
(ds-gr)
intr.v. dis·a·greed, dis·a·gree·ing, dis·a·grees

1. To fail to correspond: our figures disagree. See Synonyms at differ.

a. To have a differing opinion: She disagrees with him on everything. They say it will rain, but I disagree.
b. To dispute or quarrel.
3. To cause adverse effects:

 

[FAB]

You’re right that the things you mention (Eucharist, Our Lady, etc.) are wonderful doctrines and sacraments, and no I’m not suggesting that you reject them too. But how can you believe they are true if you don’t trust the Church which gave them to you? If the Church is wrong about the priesthood, then how do you know it’s right about the Eucharist and the Blessed Mother? That’s what I don’t understand…basically, what do you base your faith on if not on objective truth?

This is absolutely a sincere query and not an attempt to “make a point” or start a debate.

The basis of believing in the church is the belief that from the first pentecost is is the Holy Spirit through continuing revelation which guides the Church. The church is not perfect, we accept that since it is run my human beings who are not perfect. IT is why the Magisterium (the bishops of the world) along with the pope after prayer God and consultation with each other give thier teachings. They only teach infalabilty in areas of faith and morals.
when it comes to the priesthood, I look at it sacramentally. The priest as with all our sacraments is a sign and symbol. As the represenative of our Lord on earth, as he speakes the words of consecration, he is a sign of the living Lord. Jesus was a man, as such the priest should be the same. THere are other post on this thread that give all the doctrine behind the teaching.
As a I said before, baptism without the use of water would not be the same symbol. We are a people of site sound and touch, and our sacraments reflect that fact.

Peace,
FAB