The Origin of Evil

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Evil is not the opposite of good as some type of opposing substance or force, no more than darkness is the opposite of light. Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good. Even if we reject privation theory, evil cannot be some force which God has no control over unless we become essentially polytheist. What you’re speaking of sounds very much like what the Manichaeans preached.
That is another very good point, Wesrock.

In my observation, the conscience itself is formed in a way that Manichaeism is a default spirituality. Zoroastrianism is one of the most ancient religions, and the same dualism is evident in all world religions and arguably among atheists. Manichaeism is a very natural manifestation of how we see the world as we develop our sense of right and wrong.

Seeing evil as an absence, to me, involves some internal reconciliation, allowing the light to come in. The New Testament is presented in such a way that allows for both the dualistic and non-dualistic approach. Non-dualism, which comes from internal reconciliation, is an invitation.
 
The gift of free will implies that God shares His power with us and permits evil but it is within the context of His infinite love. If people choose to reject Him and have a kingdom of their own He is not responsible for their self-inflicted isolation. We have to accept the drawbacks of free will because it is His greatest gift - without which none of us would be capable of the highest form of love
So there’s something that requires God to allow evil, then? What would that something be?
 
So there’s something that requires God to allow evil, then? What would that something be?
God is not logically required to allow evil. However, if He deems it good that men should be capable of rejecting Him, then that logically means that He must allow men the capability to do evil. If there is a requirement, the requirement is that it’s logically necessary for Him to accomplish His will that men be free to reject Him. But He chooses that men should have free choice of His own will; it’s not forced upon Him. He could create without any evils, but that has logical consequences, and may not align with His universal will for creation as a whole.
 
There’s a contradiction then. In your case, God must have wanted Adam/Eve to fall, since he could have prevented them from doing so. In the same way, if God could prevent people from going to hell but doesn’t do so then he wants them to go there.

In each case, God says he doesn’t want the result, yet the result happens. Therefore, there must be something uncontrollable going on.
There is no contradiction. God wants people to do His will, but that is antecedently. His absolute will is that man should be free to reject Him. I might want my son to do right in one sense, but that desire is different than the want I make actual: the permission to reject me and my will that he do right is my absolute will.

God knew Adam and Eve would fall, as He knows all who each of the elect and reprobates are.
 
You are, in fact, saying that evil originates with God. You also need to explain what you mean by “antecedent will” more, because it certainly doesn’t agree with the biblical notion that it’s not God’s will that any perish. Now you’re saying that it is his will?
 
The gift of free will implies that God shares His power with us and permits evil but it is within the context of His infinite love. If people choose to reject Him and have a kingdom of their own He is not responsible for their self-inflicted isolation. We have to accept the drawbacks of free will because it is His greatest gift - without which none of us would be capable of the highest form of love
His decision to share His power with us…
 
You are, in fact, saying that evil originates with God. You also need to explain what you mean by “antecedent will” more, because it certainly doesn’t agree with the biblical notion that it’s not God’s will that any perish. Now you’re saying that it is his will?
If there is any force outside of God’s control He would not be God. He permits evil.

A government wills that its people obey the law. However, the government does not will that everyone be controlled by puppet strings to make them obey the law. Similarly, God desires that everyone be saved, but He doesn’t override their will to force it. As a consequence of God’s will that men should be free to reject Him, some will end up in Hell.

There would be no evil if God did not permit evil, but that would have other consequences which may be more undesirable. Did not God permit the evil that happened to Job? The heavenly conversation between God and the adversary may not be literal, but it certainly indicates that it’s not outside of God’s control.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Have you spoken with your pastor on this topic? I can hardly imagine a Christian pastor teaching that evil is an unstoppable force. Your argument is very Manichaean.

I am literally going on vacation for the next week, so wish me luck in staying off these forums. I’ll probably end up posting from the airport, but hopefully not! Cheers, everyone.
 
…I am literally going on vacation for the next week, so wish me luck in staying off these forums. I’ll probably end up posting from the airport, but hopefully not! Cheers, everyone.
I thought I’m the only addict! Enjoy your freedom. 🙂
 
You are, in fact, saying that evil originates with God. You also need to explain what you mean by “antecedent will” more, because it certainly doesn’t agree with the biblical notion that it’s not God’s will that any perish. Now you’re saying that it is his will?
To be precise, evil is a by-product of Creation. Neither moral evil nor natural evil is willed by God. They are permitted because it would be a greater evil not to share the gift of existence with others. Our Creator is certainly not a miser who hoards His treasure!
 
To be precise, evil is a by-product of Creation. Neither moral evil nor natural evil is willed by God. They are permitted because it would be a greater evil not to share the gift of existence with others. Our Creator is certainly not a miser who hoards His treasure!
OK - evil is a byproduct of creation. Isn’t that the same thing as saying that evil originates with God?
 
If there is any force outside of God’s control He would not be God. He permits evil.
OK, I’m going to give you some passages, but first I need to ask a question to everyone participating in this discussion: do you believe that the nature of God is uncontrollable?

Now for some passages:
  1. “12 Immediately the Spirit *impelled Him to go out into the wilderness.” Mk. 1:12 (NASB)
  2. “14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;” 2 Cor. 5:14 (NASB)
  3. " 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, *warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them [j]perish. 22 Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.”" Ex. 19:21-22 (NASB)
I mentioned earlier the contradiction between commanding mankind not to eat of the TGE in the garden of Eden, and also the contradiction between not wanting anyone to perish but people perishing anyway. The above passage is a great example of another contradiction similar to the first two examples. Here God obviously doesn’t want to kill the Israelites, because he could do so easily while they were at the foot of the mountain. Instead, he tells them that if they come up to the mountain and come into contact with him he’ll kill them. This indicates that if they come into contact with him some sort of uncontrollable force will cause him to kill them. Otherwise, there is simply a contradiction in the passage.
  1. “7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom. 8:7 (NASB)
All of the passages mentioned above indicate the uncontrollable nature of good/evil. There are other passages as well. In summary, there is strong evidence for this in Scripture.*
 
OK - evil is a byproduct of creation. Isn’t that the same thing as saying that evil originates with God?
Evil is a **negative **side-effect of Creation. It is not willed but permitted because only the Creator is absolutely perfect. Every creature is finite and limited in some way or other.
 
OK, I’m going to give you some passages, but first I need to ask a question to everyone participating in this discussion: do you believe that the nature of God is uncontrollable?

Now for some passages:
  1. “12 Immediately the Spirit *impelled Him to go out into the wilderness.” Mk. 1:12 (NASB)
  2. “14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;” 2 Cor. 5:14 (NASB)
  3. " 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, *warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them [j]perish. 22 Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.”" Ex. 19:21-22 (NASB)
I mentioned earlier the contradiction between commanding mankind not to eat of the TGE in the garden of Eden, and also the contradiction between not wanting anyone to perish but people perishing anyway. The above passage is a great example of another contradiction similar to the first two examples. Here God obviously doesn’t want to kill the Israelites, because he could do so easily while they were at the foot of the mountain. Instead, he tells them that if they come up to the mountain and come into contact with him he’ll kill them. This indicates that if they come into contact with him some sort of uncontrollable force will cause him to kill them. Otherwise, there is simply a contradiction in the passage.
  1. “7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom. 8:7 (NASB)
All of the passages mentioned above indicate the uncontrollable nature of good/evil. There are other passages as well. In summary, there is strong evidence for this in Scripture.*
The term “uncontrollable” is misleading. We might as well ask whether truth, goodness, freedom, justice and love are uncontrollable. It gives the impression that it is a defect instead of being a fundamental asset and blessing. It was an atheist, Thomas Nagel, who pointed out that life is valuable because it is a source of opportunities. God is absolutely free and therefore “uncontrollable”. Would it be better if He didn’t exist?
 
My 2 cents:
Evil
In the intellectual battle for the minds of man, of the three modalities of non-belief—materialism, skepticism, and cynicism—it is the cynic that poses the first challenge. It is the cynic that raises the question of the existence of evil when he asks, “Why does God allow evil?” This question has been around for centuries; it is a question on which much of philosophy’s cynicism since the Enlightenment has been founded. Consider this from Pierre Bayle:

(Historical and Critical Dictionary, quoted in Evil in Modern Thought, Susan Neiman)
“God is either willing to remove evil and cannot; or he can, and is unwilling; or he is neither willing nor able to do so; or else he is both willing and able. If he is willing and not able; he must then be weak, which cannot be affirmed of God. If he is able and not willing; he must be envious, which is contrary to the nature of God. If he is neither wiling nor able, he must be both envious and weak, and consequently could not be God. If he is both willing and able—the only possibility that agrees with the nature of God—then were does evil come from?”


In any argument with the cynic, believers must deal with the question: “If there is a God and God is good, why did He create a world that is so evil?” The presence of evil in the world has always been a mystery to mankind. Different people at different times rationalized the mystery in different ways. The primary way to deal with evil has always been through religion. However, despite man’s continuing supplication to the creative power, evil continues to exist. The religious answer is: God does not create evil, persons do! This answer does not convince the cynic because the rejoinder usually is, but why does God allow people to create evil? What is needed to help counter the cynics arguments is a practical answer that seems plausible. I, of course, do not know why God allows evil, but I have arrived at an answer to counter the cynic’s argument that seems possible and plausible to me. I am not a theologian, but I can read the dogmas and I can’t find in what follows anything that is prohibited by Catholic dogma.

To address the question of evil, we must first define it. I view evil in three modalities: personal evil (sin); social evil (injustice such as bigotry, slavery, tyranny) and natural evil (tragedy such as earthquakes, tornadoes, plagues). The question now is: why does God allow: sin, injustice, and tragedy? I begin by addressing personal evil in this thesis. Social evil and natural evil must be addressed separately. Let us first consider the existence of personal evil, sin. God is the realm of possibility, meaning that all things that are possible reside in the Mind of God. Evil is a possibility. However, an act is not evil until a possibility is actualized and in the case of personal evil, it is the person that actualizes the possibility (gives in to temptation) that creates the evil, in the form of a deliberate sin. God’s desire is to eliminate the possibility of evil, He must first allow the possibility to be actualize it in a way that is separated from His Being so that evil in no way exists in Him. And if evil remains a possibility and not an actuality, it doesn’t exist. Consequently, the method God chose to eliminate evil was to create a scenario whereby, when we are confronted with a choice of good or evil, we reject the evil thus eliminating its actuality (existence) and we eliminate evil bit by bit apart from God. Hence, the answer to another question, why did God create us? God created us to eliminate evil.

God provided an example in the scriptures in temptation in the desert when after forty days of hunger Jesus was tempted three times and refused the temptation thus setting an example for humans to follow when tempted with a choice. For example, God imagines the possibility of a sin of adultery that can only be actualized by a pair of humans. “Imagining the possibility” is not evil; the possibility only becomes evil if the possibility is actualized when adultery takes place. If a pair of humans when confronted with the temptation to commit adultery, choose not to do so, they prevent the actualization of evil and effectively eliminate the possibility of that specific possibility of evil. Hence, a finite bit of a possibility of evil has been erased from the Mind of God. Given the repetition of all the specific occasions of sin that have confronted mankind and were actualized as evil will in some later repetition of that same specific occasion of sin not be actualized until all the possibility of sin is eliminated from the Mind of God. Personal evil will be eliminated through the existence of parallel worlds and the multiple lifetimes that they entail. For only when each person is given a second chance to be confronted with each temptation then and only then can each possibility of a single act and consequently all evil will be eliminated. The world gets successively better with less evil with each passing of a parallel lifetime.

I make no claim as to the truth of what I write, I merely present a possible and plausible argument to counter the cynic’s questioning God allowing evil to exist. Countering the materialist and the skeptic requires separate answers.
Yppop
 
My 2 cents:
Evil
In the intellectual battle for the minds of man, of the three modalities of non-belief—materialism, skepticism, and cynicism—it is the cynic that poses the first challenge. It is the cynic that raises the question of the existence of evil when he asks, “Why does God allow evil?” This question has been around for centuries; it is a question on which much of philosophy’s cynicism since the Enlightenment has been founded. Consider this from Pierre Bayle:

(Historical and Critical Dictionary, quoted in Evil in Modern Thought, Susan Neiman)
“God is either willing to remove evil and cannot; or he can, and is unwilling; or he is neither willing nor able to do so; or else he is both willing and able. If he is willing and not able; he must then be weak, which cannot be affirmed of God. If he is able and not willing; he must be envious, which is contrary to the nature of God. If he is neither wiling nor able, he must be both envious and weak, and consequently could not be God. If he is both willing and able—the only possibility that agrees with the nature of God—then were does evil come from?”


In any argument with the cynic, believers must deal with the question: “If there is a God and God is good, why did He create a world that is so evil?” The presence of evil in the world has always been a mystery to mankind. Different people at different times rationalized the mystery in different ways. The primary way to deal with evil has always been through religion. However, despite man’s continuing supplication to the creative power, evil continues to exist. The religious answer is: God does not create evil, persons do! This answer does not convince the cynic because the rejoinder usually is, but why does God allow people to create evil? What is needed to help counter the cynics arguments is a practical answer that seems plausible. I, of course, do not know why God allows evil, but I have arrived at an answer to counter the cynic’s argument that seems possible and plausible to me. I am not a theologian, but I can read the dogmas and I can’t find in what follows anything that is prohibited by Catholic dogma.

To address the question of evil, we must first define it. I view evil in three modalities: personal evil (sin); social evil (injustice such as bigotry, slavery, tyranny) and natural evil (tragedy such as earthquakes, tornadoes, plagues). The question now is: why does God allow: sin, injustice, and tragedy? I begin by addressing personal evil in this thesis. Social evil and natural evil must be addressed separately. Let us first consider the existence of personal evil, sin. God is the realm of possibility, meaning that all things that are possible reside in the Mind of God. Evil is a possibility. However, an act is not evil until a possibility is actualized and in the case of personal evil, it is the person that actualizes the possibility (gives in to temptation) that creates the evil, in the form of a deliberate sin. God’s desire is to eliminate the possibility of evil, He must first allow the possibility to be actualize it in a way that is separated from His Being so that evil in no way exists in Him. And if evil remains a possibility and not an actuality, it doesn’t exist. Consequently, the method God chose to eliminate evil was to create a scenario whereby, when we are confronted with a choice of good or evil, we reject the evil thus eliminating its actuality (existence) and we eliminate evil bit by bit apart from God. Hence, the answer to another question, why did God create us? God created us to eliminate evil.

God provided an example in the scriptures in temptation in the desert when after forty days of hunger Jesus was tempted three times and refused the temptation thus setting an example for humans to follow when tempted with a choice. For example, God imagines the possibility of a sin of adultery that can only be actualized by a pair of humans. “Imagining the possibility” is not evil; the possibility only becomes evil if the possibility is actualized when adultery takes place. If a pair of humans when confronted with the temptation to commit adultery, choose not to do so, they prevent the actualization of evil and effectively eliminate the possibility of that specific possibility of evil. Hence, a finite bit of a possibility of evil has been erased from the Mind of God. Given the repetition of all the specific occasions of sin that have confronted mankind and were actualized as evil will in some later repetition of that same specific occasion of sin not be actualized until all the possibility of sin is eliminated from the Mind of God. Personal evil will be eliminated through the existence of parallel worlds and the multiple lifetimes that they entail. For only when each person is given a second chance to be confronted with each temptation then and only then can each possibility of a single act and consequently all evil will be eliminated. The world gets successively better with less evil with each passing of a parallel lifetime.

I make no claim as to the truth of what I write, I merely present a possible and plausible argument to counter the cynic’s questioning God allowing evil to exist. Countering the materialist and the skeptic requires separate answers.
Yppop
👍 A fascinating post with some excellent ideas which deserve the attention of anyone who is confused by the existence of evil - although the suggestion that there are parallel worlds and multiple lifetimes seems more akin to Buddhism than Christianity! 🙂
 
Hello,

What is the origin of evil? Did it begin to exist at some point, or did it always exist? Does evil exist as a consequence of God’s existence? Is God able to destroy evil, or does he have to let it exist?
Before creation of angels and man, it didn’t exist. God let those beings freely decide what they want to do with their desires.
 
👍 A fascinating post with some excellent ideas which deserve the attention of anyone who is confused by the existence of evil - although the suggestion that there are parallel worlds and multiple lifetimes seems more akin to Buddhism than Christianity! 🙂
Hi Tony
Thank you for your response
Yes, parallel worlds does raise the question concerning reincarnation…The main difference between the two is that in reincarnation you come back as something other than your self; in parallel worlds it is our own body that recurs.

I, of course, do not know how God created and sustains the world, but I contend that parallel worlds are one possibility that would answer some objections that cynical non-believers cite as a reason for not believing in God. We can neither prove or disapprove the existence of parallel worlds; it has, however, a scientific derivation so how could the cynic object to my scenario.

I am not searching for truth so much as I am developing counter arguments.to those of the materialistic, cynical, or skeptical non-believers.

Yppop
 
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