The origin of the two and ten horned beast.

[Special_Ed]

ryanoniel,

After replying to your many comments is this is the best you can do? Your question has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
In fact, I’ve asked you many questions several times that you have yet to answer.

1. How can Persia be the “inferior” kingdom when it was three times the size of Babylon’s.
2. How can it be Persia (Cyrus) who took Babylon when the scriptures declare that Darius the Mede did so.
3. How/why would the word mixed be used (which means “arab”) to describe the ten toes which you say is the Roman empire?
4. Why would God leave out the events of a world in turmoil and chaos just prior to His return. (Rev.6-20)

You post the scripture you want to discuss and whatever it is your after and I will gladly reply.

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

I don’t see the contradiction. The Median Empire was conquered before the fall of Babylon. And Gubaru is said to be Darius the Mede.

I should have replied to this in a previous post.

The Word of God will point out the contradiction.

Dan 5:31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon)[being] about threescore and two years old.

Dan 9:1 ¶ In the first year of **Darius **the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; (Babylonian’s)

If you can’t agree there is a contradiction here then you are in denial.

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

Is it coincidence that the two and ten horns are already on the beast??

http://twospires.jpg

http://twohorns1.jpg

http://mosque.jpg

 

[ryanoneil]

Dear Ed,

The reason I asked Where does Daniel mention the first coming of Christ? is because this is what the entire book of Daniel is about. It has everything to do with the topic of this thread.

Daniel asks God for a time line of the events leading up to the Messiah’s Kingdom, and God reveals it to him. The length of that time line is approximately six hundred years.

All the visions in Daniel describe the same event through different imagery. The statue, the four beasts, Daniel 9:24-27, and chapters 10-12, are all talking about the same events. This is NOT a chronological book. (You can easily see that ths is the case when you notice that Chapter 7 occurred several years before Chapter 6)

You have been refuting the Protestant (Rapturist) understanding of Daniel, but have fallen into the same trap they are in. To make your systems work, you divide that six hundred years into two parts and insert an additional two thousand years in between!

Why do you (all) do this? I believe it is you (all) are unwilling to entertain the notion that Christ founded the Kingdom of God during His first advent, which has been the position of the Catholic Church for two thousand years. You (all) hold to the firm conviction that the Messianic Kingdom is still in the future. This idea has been rejected by the Catholic Church.

CCC 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

You are Catholic, aren’t you? The early and present day Church have always understood that Daniel was talking about Christ’s first coming. So I must ask again. Where does Daniel mention the first coming of Christ?

Without understanding where we stand on this question, I’m afraid we’ll continue confusing each other. Also, If I have misunderstood your position, and put words in your mouth, please forgive and correct me.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Special_Ed]

ryan,
You have yet to answer any of my questions. You know, the ones where your views contradict the bible.

Neither have you explained how the scripture verses I posted from Revelation 6 to 16 have already occured. Surely, if these things in Revelation have occured, there must be some indication of it somewhere in history.

The bible, as well as prophecy, is really a simple book to understand if you approach it withpout preconcieved ideas.

I have fallen into a trap only when I believe what others would like me to believe. I repented, (changed my mind) and studied things for myself many moons ago.

In fact, the reason I did not get into the ministry while in my 20’s was because to many of the study books that were required to read by the church did the same thing you do.

And that is…these authors proclaim a particular scripture means a certain thing to support their beliefs but when I read them I see them say no such thing. Which is what you did with the scripture references you posted. All of them not only were taken out of context, you try to make them say something they do not. And that is another issue you chose to evade.

How many places in the bible does it say that wisdom and understanding are required to understand these things?

I will repeat. During Christ first advent, He did not come to destroy kingdoms or destroy those who destroy the earth. etc.etc.(Rev.11:18)

There are a host of events that have not yet occured and you don’t confront them because you can’t because they have not yet come to pass. Christ did not establish His kingdom because that was not the time of the end.

Rev 7:13
13 *I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 *And there was given him dominion, **and glory, and a kingdom, **that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

v.18 18 *But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The saints have not yet possesed the kingdom. Want me to prove that to you?

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that** the saints possessed the kingdom.**

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to* destroy it unto the end.**

27 ** And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.**
Do you want me to prove that also from this verse?

18 *Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold,* I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.**

 

[Special_Ed]

Maybe you can explain these verses.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 ** And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.**

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

…and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 10:14 *** Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.***

27 And both these kings’ hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Dan. 11:33 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Dan. 12:4 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:8-10 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 ** And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.**

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

Ryan,

History should be on the side of a historicist. All you have to do is prove these prophecies by the historical content of the bible. You cannot. I have never found a historicist that can.

You should not be so bound to your beliefs. It’s ok to change your mind. In fact you should, if the scriptures imply otherwise.

Over the last 30 years, I have found that christians have difficulty considering other views of prophecy. But, in these last day’s and with the emergence of radical Islam, the events have have struck a nerve and people are beginning to change their minds. You should be more open to these things. Understanding the truth about the Lord’s return in Power and Great Glory is not so insignificant that God would chose to omit it from His Word.

Also, I posted something on another thread called the “Muslim jesus”, and another called “Muhammed or Jesus, the prophet like unto Moses”. I think that you should be aware of these things.

And I am a Catholic, and a Protestant too! I don’t totally agree with any of them. My beliefs are my own. Nobody has dictated them to me. They’ve been acquired by my own unbiased research.

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

Ryan,

A few more things.
You said,

You have been refuting the Protestant (Rapturist) understanding of Daniel, but have fallen into the same trap they are in. To make your systems work, you divide that six hundred years into two parts and insert an additional two thousand years in between!

I haven’t expressed my beliefs concerning Daniel’s 70th week. I’m not in total agreement with the Protestant’s.
Your jumping the gun.

Why do you (all) do this? I believe it is you (all) are unwilling to entertain the notion that Christ founded the Kingdom of God during His first advent, which has been the position of the Catholic Church for two thousand years. You (all) hold to the firm conviction that the Messianic Kingdom is still in the future. This idea has been rejected by the Catholic Church.

To me, it doesn’t matter who rejects it. I’m quite willing to entertain the notion. It has not been the position of the Catholic church for two thousand years. In fact, Preterism and what we now call Futurism were both “created” by the Jesuits during the counter reformation in an attempt to squash the Protestant reformation and misdirect the finger from the Catholic system as the fulfillment of the antichrist power seen in prophecy.

Historicism is what was believed throughout the centuries by the great majority of Christians. But these days, many of us know better.

I’m willing to discuss any scripture in Daniel. In fact, if you say that the book of Daniel only mentions the first coming of Christ.

Then maybe you can answer these questions.

Most historicist believe… but not I…

Daniel’s 70 Weeks has already been fulfilled in its entirety, and the Antichrist is not one particular man, but has been fulfilled by the papacy of the Roman Catholic Church and do not be expect an Antichrist to appear in the future.

Historicist also believe the prophesied ten-horn kingdom existed at the time of the dissolution of the Roman Empire, and the papacy rose up among these ten kings.
And,

The Great Tribulation lasted 1,260 years and is now past. There will not be a time of great tribulation at the Second Coming. (Some believe in a Second Coming of Jesus. Apparently, some Historicists do not.)
And,

The events of Jesus prophecy in Matthew 24 have already been fulfilled and do not pertain to our times today.

 

[Special_Ed]

In Daniel 9…
Who is the “he” that will confirm the covenant for seven years?

Historicists believe the Messiah is the one who was prophesied to confirm the covenant. Futurists teach that it will be the “prince that shall come”–the Antichrist. This question is very easy to answer.

Notice that the same “he” that is to confirm the covenant is also to take away the daily sacrifice and place the Abomination of Desolation (verse 27). Daniel 11:30-31 tells us in no uncertain terms that it is the Antichrist (the king of the north) and his followers who take away the daily sacrifice and place the Abomination of Desolation.

30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

**This passage is obviously not referring to the Messiah. Would the Messiah ever "have indignation against the holy covenant?” Would He ever "pollute the sanctuary of strength?” Obviously not! The entirety of Daniel 11:21-45 is discussing the actions of the king of the north–the Antichrist. **

So we can see clearly that it is the Antichrist, not the Messiah, who takes away the daily sacrifice and places the Abomination of Desolation.

Now, concerning “The ships of Chittim”. The NIV calls them “the Ships of the Western Coastland”.

‘Ah, who can live when God does this? Ships will come from the shores of Kittim; **they will subdue Asshur and Eber, but they too will come to ruin.”/B] (Numbers 24:21-24)

The ships of Kittim are only mentioned one other place in Scripture, and that is Daniel 11:30,** the verse that leads to the abomination that causes desolation. **](Remember, the abomination that causes desolation is the sign Jesus told his disciples to consider as the beginning of the great tribulation.) **

Balaam tells us these ships will subdue Asshur and Eber. Asshur was the ancient root word for Assyria, a land associated with the Tigris River, (i.e. northern Iraq). Eber was the land associated with the Euphrates River in Babylonia, (i.e. southern Iraq).

Abraham came from the land of Eber which is why the Canaanites called him an “Ebrew,” or Hebrew. The modern day state of Iraq combines the ancient kingdoms of Assyria and Babylon into one. Hence, “Asshur and Eber” are one nation in the end times, and their king is called “the king of the north” by the prophet Daniel. **So it appears that Balaam saw a time in the future when ships from the west would subdue the land of Iraq.

Sound familiar???**

SE

 

[Special_Ed]

Ryan,

I really don’t like comparing historicism and futurism on this thread, but since you’re pretty much the only one trying to support historicism, I’ll continue. We probably should leave it for another thread.

Previous generations thought Jesus would return in their lifetime and were proven wrong. There are some serious contradictions in historicism as well as prophecies that could not have been fulfilled until this generation.

In MT.24:3 the disciples asked,
Tell us, when shall these things be?* and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?*

Jesus goes on to give us signs to look for prior to His return. Jesus then goes on to describe world conditions the generation just prior to His return would experience.

Mt. 24:22 ***And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. **

Jesus is saying that if the times of trouble were not cut short, (Jacob’s trouble) no living thing would be saved. In other word’s mankind would exterminate itself. And if the King of Kings did not intervene, the human race would face extinction. You must understand that humanity has only had the capability to self-annihilate itself for about 50 years.

Today, there are a host of nuclear powers and nuclear weapons have found their way into the hands of terrorist. You may have heard that when the Soviet Union broke up, after the dismantling of the Soviet arsenal, many nuclear weapons (esp.those from the “stan” countries") have not been accounted for. And the number unaccounted weapons is over 1000!

The good news my friend??? Jesus said he would return to put an end to this madness before we destroy ourselves!
This prophecy was impossible to fulfill during the time of Christ first advent.

Mathew 24 and Luke 21 are parallel chapters.

Luke 21:7 7 The disciples asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Jesus responded by saying that Jerusalem would be the central focus of political and military upheavals that would immediately precede His return.

Luke 21:21-22 *Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Jerusalem had been fought over countless times, but for four centuries since 1517, the city had been at peace within the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire. Jews lived there as a minority under Turkish rule. This had to change in order for bible prophecy to be fulfilled.

Zechariah 12: 2 *Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 *And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

v.6 6 *In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

v. 9 *¶And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Has God destroyed all nations that have come against her?
Look at what Zachariah say’s in Chapter 14.

Zechariah 14:1 *¶Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 *For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Special_Ed]

After the rebellion against the Romans in A.D. 66 and again in 132, Judea was crushed and most of the remaining Jews were dispersed throughout the Roman Empire and beyond. No Jewish homeland existed again until 1948 when the modern nation of Israel was established.

Remember what Daniel 11:31 say’s… And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

And Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

When was the daily sacrifice taken away?

When the disciples asked Jesus this question…Matthew 24:3

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus also responded…

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This verse as well as the others I’ve posted and commented on, refute the historical view of prophecy. And…In order for any theory of prophecy to be true and correct, it cannot contradict history or any other verse of prophecy.

I would like to thank Irving Baxter, Melvin Rhodes, and Dennis McGee for helping me on some of these issues.
SE

 

[ryanoneil]

We need to slow down. I’d have to make 10 posts to your 1. I’d talk about everything you posted recently, but as soon as I respond I’m sure another conversation will ensue. I don’t have that kind of time. Let’s take a few verses at a time. (because a guy could write a book on some of them) So I’ll start here and see what happens.

Also, because I’m might not get to it until much later, I’m sorry for jumping the gun.

ryan,
You have yet to answer any of my questions. You know, the ones where your views contradict the bible.

If you want to sepererate the Medes from the Persians so be it. Daniel is deported to Babylon about 604 BC. The “Medes” conquer Babylon in 539 BC. They confederate with the Persians 50 years later.( the first 3 kingdoms in your view) Which leads to the Greeks (the 4th kingdom) who’s empire ends around 146 BC after the Roman conquest.

Daniel 2:44 ***In the lifetime *of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever.

So the Messianic prophecies were either fulfilled before 146 BC or the Greek empire is still exists. What is your explaination?

I’ll try to respond to the rest of this post tonight.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

I’ll give you the short answer to each. (but I can’t do any justice without writing an entire book here) And keep in mind I believe prophecy can be historical and futurist.

Rev. 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Great day of His wrath has not yet come.

The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. To do this I’d have to get into Matt 24:29. Jesus talks about 2 thing: the destruction of the Temple and His second coming

Revelation 7:1
*¶And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
This has yet to happen.

This is probably a reference to Daniel 7:2 the winds that stir up the gentile nations. When stirred up they would “harm the land” of Israel. Before the angels are allowed to release the winds of wrath, God demands more time to complete the identification of Christ’s followers. No evil will be allowed “till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads” (7:3) The purpose is to gather more Jewish CHristians before the destruction of Jerusalem.

I believe the seals of Rev.6 have just begun to open. And none of the trumpets have yet sounded. You have to prove that the events of the seals, trumpets, and vials have already occured and I know that you can’t. How can you prove to me that the following has occured.

Yes they have. Yes I can. I could type a book here. Just because it’s already fulfilled doesn’t mean there isn’t a future final fulfillment.

Rev.8:7 *¶The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

The Roman army actually used so many trees for their seige engines and their crosses that the area around Jerusalem was completely deforested for miles.

I’ll finish after I take my wife out. (she wants to go)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Special_Ed]

I’ve had some time in the last few day’s due to lots of snow and cold and this is what I do anyway other than “work”. I don’t expect you to reply to all of my comments. I just hope that you did read them.

You said,

If you want to sepererate the Medes from the Persians so be it.

Spoken like a true Wisconsinite! ( I lived in Milwaukee and West Bend)

I didn’t chose to separate the two. It’s clear in Daniel 8 and by the inferior kingdom as well as other scriptures I posted, that they were two kingdoms that eventually became one i.e. the ram.
If I knew how to paste a map of the Median kingdom, you could see what it looked like but I don’t know how to do it.

Daniel is deported to Babylon about 604 BC. The “Medes” conquer Babylon in 539 BC. They confederate with the Persians 50 years later.( the first 3 kingdoms in your view) Which leads to the Greeks (the 4th kingdom) who’s empire ends around 146 BC after the Roman conquest.

I think your dates are correct. And yes, the Greeks are the fourth empire which did not cover the geographical area of Rome or Europe. The Grecian Empire is the “revived Grecian Empire” from which will emerge the final beast.

Daniel 2:44 **In the lifetime of those kings **the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever.

So the Messianic prophecies were either fulfilled before 146 BC or the Greek empire is still exists. What is your explaination?

These verses do not imply that the fourth kingdom will continue to exist up to the time God sets up His kingdom. I will explain.

From Daniel 2:40-44
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

NOTICE…speaking about the iron and clay…
44 **And in the days of these kings **shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Between Daniel 2:40 and 43, Daniel explains the toes mingled with iron and clay. Then Daniel say’s that in the days of these kingsi.e…the kings symbolized by the iron and clay or the ten horns on the beast of Daniel 7…*God will set up a kingdom which shall stand forever. (Zach. 14 and Rev. 19 and 20.) *

God did not set up His kingdom in the time of Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Cyrus, or Alexander the Great. But He will when Christ destroys the final kingdom of the Islamic antichrist.

 

[Special_Ed]

I’ll give you the short answer to each. (but I can’t do any justice without writing an entire book here) And keep in mind I believe prophecy can be historical and futurist.

I’ve been saying that too, but that’s not true with every prophecy. Only some of them.

The sixth seal mentions the Great day of His wrath.

12 *And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 *And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 ** And the heaven departed as a scroll **when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 *And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 *And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 ***For the great day of his wrath is come; **and who shall be able to stand?
*How and when has any of this occured? *

You should read the next verse carefully and observe.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and** the time of the dead, that they should be judged, ***and that thou shouldest ***give reward ***unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The time of God’s wrath comes when the dead are judged and rewarded. That’s when He destroys them which destroy the earth.

In response to Rev. 7:1

**Revelation 7:1 **¶And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 *And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 *Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Your response,

This is probably a reference to Daniel 7:2 the winds that stir up the gentile nations. When stirred up they would “harm the land” of Israel. Before the angels are allowed to release the winds of wrath, God demands more time to complete the identification of Christ’s followers. No evil will be allowed “till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads” (7:3) The purpose is to gather more Jewish CHristians before the destruction of Jerusalem.

I can’t agree with your explanation on this. It has nothing to do with the 12 tribes of Israel. After John goes through the list of sealed tribes, he say’s,

9 *After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, **stood before the throne, **and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is a vision John had while in heaven well after the events of Daniel 7, which you generally say is history. The verses in Revelation are not a repeat of Daniel 7 and are not even similar in context. So I don’t agree with your explanation.

SE

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ed. I grew up in Van Dyne. A small town between Oshkosh and Fond du Lac.

Rev.8:8 *And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

The burning mountain symbolizes the destruction of a monarchy, as does similar language in Amos 1 and 2. The Sanhedrin were the remnant of the Hasmonean dynasty. The priests traced their lineage all the way to Aaron’s day. Nero was of the royal dynasty of Augustus. All where overthrown during this period in Daniel’s last week.

9 *And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 *And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 *And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Wormwood is an extremely bitter plant that reflects the language of Jeremiah 23:15. Jeremiah laments the false prophets of Judah (23:5) who falsely predicted peace and safety, when he knew Jerusalem would fall. He was persecuted as a naysayer. God makes Him a promise that He “will feed them with wormwood, and give them poisoned water to drink.” (eat their words)

The connection to the third trumpet is when the Messiah, the righteous Branch, finally appeared, the Jewish Sanhedrin turned the people of Jerusalem against Him. The Sanhedrin’s leader, the high preist, is the star that “fell from Heaven,” and poisoned the waters. He led the assult on the Messiah and encouraged the false prophets.

All throughout the Roman siege, the leadership and prophets of Jerusalem were predicting the salvation of God for Jerusalem. They believed to the very end that God would defeat the Roman army for them. But, God keeps His promises against false prophets fed them wormwood. Their false hopes led to the brutal deaths of many Jews who where split into thirds.

12 *And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

This is typical apocolyptic imagery that symbolizes political upheaval. The utter defeat of the leadership of Jerusalem, was eventually replaced by the Rabbinic Judaism of today. synagogue instead of Temple, moral law instead of sacrificial law, and teacher instead of priest.

13 *And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

verse 13 reads eagle not angel in my Bible. Are you using a KJV Bible?

Hope that helps.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

I’ve had some time in the last few day’s due to lots of snow and cold and this is what I do anyway other than “work”. I don’t expect you to reply to all of my comments. I just hope that you did read them.

Yes I did read them.

I didn’t chose to separate the two. It’s clear in Daniel 8 and by the inferior kingdom as well as other scriptures I posted, that they were two kingdoms that eventually became one i.e. the ram.
If I knew how to paste a map of the Median kingdom, you could see what it looked like but I don’t know how to do it.

I think your dates are correct. And yes, the Greeks are the fourth empire which did not cover the geographical area of Rome or Europe. The Grecian Empire is the “revived Grecian Empire” from which will emerge the final beast.

These verses do not imply that the fourth kingdom will continue to exist up to the time God sets up His kingdom. I will explain.

From Daniel 2:40-44
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

NOTICE…speaking about the iron and clay…
44 **And in the days of these kings **shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Between Daniel 2:40 and 43, Daniel explains the toes mingled with iron and clay. Then Daniel say’s that in the days of these kingsi.e…the kings symbolized by the iron and clay or the ten horns on the beast of Daniel 7…*God will set up a kingdom which shall stand forever. (Zach. 14 and Rev. 19 and 20.) *

God did not set up His kingdom in the time of Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Cyrus, or Alexander the Great. But He will when Christ destroys the final kingdom of the Islamic antichrist.

“revived Grecian Empire?” You are forcing this idea into Scripture when it isn’t there.

Why the 2,000 + year time warp in verses 41 and 42 with no mention of the Messiah the Israelites were looking for?

The text itself teaches that these two Greek parts are one and the same kingdom. It sounds like you are reasoning that two kingdoms that happen to be in the same geographical area, can be considered, for prophetic purposes, one and the same kingdom (even if they are separated by millenia)

Why not use the same reasoning with the Medo-Persian Empire? (They are not seperated by time)

IMHO this reasoning stretches logic to the breaking point.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Special_Ed]

Ryan, You said,

The burning mountain symbolizes the destruction of a monarchy, as does similar language in Amos 1 and 2. The Sanhedrin were the remnant of the Hasmonean dynasty. The priests traced their lineage all the way to Aaron’s day. Nero was of the royal dynasty of Augustus. All where overthrown during this period in Daniel’s last week.

It’s impossible for me to even consider that these events are described in the following verses.

Rev.8
7 ¶The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

9 *And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 *And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 *And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Did you know that most of the words in these verse are **literal, **and that the literal word for mountain and sea are used? It would then be better translated as John seeing *“what looked like a mountain”, thrown into the sea. *

It’s illogical to assume that John would describe events that have recently occured, or are occuring, or about to occur, (A.D. 30-100 for example) in the manner that he did, if he was already very familiar with them, or in this case, that have already passed.
In other words,

It is illogical to assume that in heaven, God would chose to describe to John the events you claim, in the manner that He did.

** To have silence in heaven for a half hour, have seven angels who stand before God given seven trumpets, and have the first angel sound the trumpet, to have a third of the trees and grass burn up amd a third of the sea creatures die, and to have a third of the ships destroyed, and a third of the water poluted to describe the events you say… rather than the tribulation of Jacob’s trouble just prior to His Son returns in power and great glory is more than illogical. It’s a complete mistranslation of scripture. **

The words for mountain.
3733. ornis or’-nis probably from a prolonged form of the base of 3735; a bird (as rising in the air), i.e. (specially), a hen (or female domestic fowl):–hen.
3735. oros or’-os probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or “rear”; perhaps akin to 142; compare 3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain).

There is no indication that what John saw is figurative of the destruction of a monarchy. There are places where the word mountain is used in a figurative sense but not here. Here “mountain” is better described as what looked like a literal mountain. thrown into the sea…

1. the sea
   a) used of the sea in general
   b) used specifically of the Mediterranean Sea or the Red Sea

I could spend a lot of time playing history/prophecy ping pong. I don’t think you’ll change your mind about anything, and you really don’t answer the critical questions of the topic and continually take things out of context. And the questions continue to grow as we continue to divert the topic of the thread.

The first few verses in the book of Revelation expose the fact that the book is future.

It’s not too difficult to determine if certain words in the book of Revelation are used litterally or figuratively.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is an “unveiling” of the times and events that will lead up to His next return when His anger and power will be displayed quite well.

**When John wrote this in A.D.95, Jesus was already revealed when John wrote this so it would make no sense for the author to **
say…

Revelation 1:1 ** The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Notice…John already had the record and testamony of Jesus Christ. How then could this be an “unveiling” or “Revelation” of Christ if Christ had already come??? Christ has already been revealed through his servants the apostles and His disciples!
Hear what I’m saying? Now in that light, consider what he say’s next…

 

[Special_Ed]

3 ¶Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the** words of this prophecy,** and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

You cannot propheseih something that has already past!

Why would God find it necessary to take a person to heaven who is in prison on the island of Patmos for preaching Jesus Christ, and put him through the experience he did just to describe to him something he is already familiar with? Most of the events you describe had already passed and recorded in the history books.

The book of Revelation was written in A.D. 95. Well after Christ first advent and the events of Jerusalem’s destruction!

Rev.8
7 ¶The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

9 *And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 *And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 *And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Wormwood is an extremely bitter plant that reflects the language of Jeremiah 23:15. Jeremiah laments the false prophets of Judah (23:5) who falsely predicted peace and safety, when he knew Jerusalem would fall. He was persecuted as a naysayer. God makes Him a promise that He “will feed them with wormwood, and give them poisoned water to drink.” (eat their words)

There two words for wormwood are…

This is the one used in the verse.
894. apsinthos ap’-sin-thos of uncertain derivation; wormwood (as a type of bitterness, i.e. (figuratively) calamity):–wormwood.

1. wormwood
2. the name of a star which fell into the waters and made them bitter.

The other one is…and is not used in the verse and is probably used to described “poppy”.

1. chole khol-ay’ feminine of an equivalent perhaps akin to the same as 5514 (from the greenish hue); “gall” or bile, i.e. (by analogy) poison or an anodyne (wormwood, poppy, etc.):–gall.

The connection to the third trumpet is when the Messiah, the righteous Branch, finally appeared, the Jewish Sanhedrin turned the people of Jerusalem against Him. The Sanhedrin’s leader, the high preist, is the star that “fell from Heaven,” and poisoned the waters. He led the assult on the Messiah and encouraged the false prophets.

All throughout the Roman siege, the leadership and prophets of Jerusalem were predicting the salvation of God for Jerusalem. They believed to the very end that God would defeat the Roman army for them. But, God keeps His promises against false prophets fed them wormwood. Their false hopes led to the brutal deaths of many Jews who where split into thirds.

The events you describe above, as well as the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., happened years before John wrote this. You have got to realized that you are refuting your own theory! John did not write a history book.

It’s incredible to me for someone to adhere to beliefs when they are most clearly misinterpreted and proven wrong but…nobody likes to admit they are wrong. And it all boils down to how you interpret the bible. This is one verse you completely ignore when you translate.

Isa. 28: 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

verse 13 reads eagle not angel in my Bible. Are you using a KJV Bible?

I’ve heard this argument before and never really looked into it very much. Usually those beliefs come from Greek manuscripts of those verses are are probably correct.

I can tell you what the Strong’s words are and which one is used for angel here. One word is derived from the other.

) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
32. aggelos ang’-el-os from aggello (probably derived from 71; compare 34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication, a pastor:–angel, messenger.
Word is derived from 71…
71. ago ag’-o a primary verb; properly, to lead; by implication, to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specially) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce:–be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

 

[Special_Ed]

There two words for wormwood are…

This is the one used in the verse.
894. apsinthos ap’-sin-thos of uncertain derivation; wormwood (as a type of bitterness, i.e. (figuratively) calamity):–wormwood.

1. wormwood
2. the name of a star which fell into the waters and made them bitter.

Sounds to me like God had the star that was thrown into the sea named…

The other word is…and is not used in the verse and is probably used to described **“poppy”.**5521. chole khol-ay’ feminine of an equivalent perhaps akin to the same as 5514 (from the greenish hue); “gall” or bile, i.e. (by analogy) poison or an anodyne (wormwood, poppy, etc.):–gall.