The Orthodox and the Hail Mary

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Silyosha

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Kind of a silly question, but do the EO pray the Hail Mary as those in the Western church (or those in communion with) do? And while we’re on that, do you guys pray the rosary as well?
Thanks, and sorry if this is naive or offensive.
 
Silyosha said:
Kind of a silly question, but do the EO pray the Hail Mary as those in the Western church (or those in communion with) do? And while we’re on that, do you guys pray the rosary as well?
Thanks, and sorry if this is naive or offensive.
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Just a friendly “heads up” here.

If you wish to address the Orthodox exclusively (it is not clear to me from the wording), you might try an Orthodox or Eastern Christian discussion forum, or possibly the “non-Catholic” section here at CAF.

In answer to your question, the Orthodox have a different common version. The Latin Catholic version was set some time in the past when an indulgence was applied to it’s use (if I recall correctly).

A common Orthodox/eastern Christian version (as I occasionally say it) goes like this:
*Mother of God and Virgin, rejoice!
Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
For thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls. *
 
Here is the a version from the Byzantine Book of Prayer, it is the one that I use privately (I say privately because we end all of our prayer hours (Morning and Evening) with a prayer to Mary, mostly it is the Hail Mary, but sometimes we sing the Flos Carmeli or some other prayer to Mary as is the tradition for Carmelites).

Hail, Mother of God, Virgin Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb;
for you gave birth to Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of our souls.
 
Hesychios said:
A common Orthodox/eastern Christian version (as I occasionally say it) goes like this:
*Mother of God and Virgin, rejoice! *
*Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. *
*For thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls. *
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Am I to understand, then, that the Greek translation in the passage also reads, “full of grace,” and, if so, is there a different rendering that can be implied?
 
Silyosha said:
Kind of a silly question, but do the EO pray the Hail Mary as those in the Western church (or those in communion with) do? And while we’re on that, do you guys pray the rosary as well?
Thanks, and sorry if this is naive or offensive.
Click to expand...
I pray the RC version of the Hail Mary everyday. It maybe because I was raised RC that I find it flows much better than the Orthodox versions do. I do not pray the Rosary although I own two.
 
Other people have already dealt with the Angelic Saltuation in the Byzantine tradition here, so I will deal with the Rosary.

St. Seraphim of Sarov called it The Prayer Rule of the Theotokos, which name I like very much.

You can read an Orthodox article about it here.

orthodoxwiki.org/Rosary

St. Seraphim also said we have only two prayers delivered to us directly from heaven: the Lord’s Prayer and the Angelic Salutation.
 
Bpbasil:
Why then do I often hear complaints that the Rosary is prayed as a “latinization” among Eastern Catholics and some Orthodox? Is this simply because they are using a “Latin” version of the Rosary?
 
twf said:
Bpbasil:
Why then do I often hear complaints that the Rosary is prayed as a “latinization” among Eastern Catholics and some Orthodox? Is this simply because they are using a “Latin” version of the Rosary?
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It could be out of ignorance.

It could be because the Roman rather than an Eastern version of the Ave is used.

It could also be because in so many churches, recitiation of the Rosary has replaced celebration of Matins or the Hours before Liturgy.

The Prayer Rule of the Theotokos is a beautiful devotion, but it should NOT be substituted for the public services of the Church.
 
twf said:
Bpbasil:
Why then do I often hear complaints that the Rosary is prayed as a “latinization” among Eastern Catholics and some Orthodox? …
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I know that this was not addressed to me so I apologize in advance for that, but I have to agree with bpbasilphx that “The Prayer Rule of the Theotokos is a beautiful devotion, but it should NOT be substituted for the public services of the Church”.

One has to understand that in the Greek east, the Offices are properly a communal parish function wherever and whenever it can be arranged. The Divine Offices (LOTH) are the official prayer of the church. Everyone should make an attempt to participate in the full liturgical cycle (if possible), and most especially for Sundays and other holy days. (The litourgia is also catechetical, which is an important dynamic too.)

[An illustration of how important an issue this is, is that according to the CCEO attendance at Vespers can be considered sufficient to satisfy the Sunday obligation for an Eastern Catholic, although this provision is not made in the Latin code.]

The problem with the rosary is that it is a private devotion that was (somehow) introduced in place of the Divine Office. It was such a commonplace abuse among Eastern Catholics in Europe that one might think that there was a deliberate plan in place (no one seems to know 🤷 ).

This has wreaked havoc with the traditional spirituality of the people, which some Eastern Catholic priests and deacons are manfully struggling to restore these days.

I think that the modern Latin Catholic **GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE LITURGY OF THE HOURS **expresses this communal concept quite well, it seems that restoring this is seen as desirable in the west as well.

Celebration in Common 20. The liturgy of the hours, like other liturgical services, is not a private matter but belongs to the whole Body of the Church, whose life it both expresses and affects. This liturgy stands out most strikingly as an ecclesial celebration when, through the bishop surrounded by his priests and ministers, the local Church celebrates it. For “in the local Church the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is truly present and at work.” Such a celebration is therefore most earnestly recommended. When, in the absence of the bishop, a chapter of canons or other priests celebrate the liturgy of the hours, they should always respect the true time of day and, as far as possible, the people should take part. The same is to be said of collegiate chapters.
21. Wherever possible, other groups of the faithful should celebrate the liturgy of the hours communally in church. This especially applies to parishes - the cells of the diocese, established under their pastors, taking the place of the bishop; they “represent in some degree the visible Church established throughout the world.”
Code: 
   22. Hence, when the people are invited to the liturgy of       the hours and come together in unity of heart and voice, they show forth       the Church in its celebration of the mystery of Christ.
It must be stressed that the rosary in itself is not a problem (although I am pretty sure most Orthodox do not believe it was handed down by the Theotokos to Saint Dominic nor in the fifteen ‘promises’). It is a magnificent chaplet in it’s own right and in some communities it is quite popular.
 
So, some Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don’t approve of the rosary because of “latinization”? But it’s still okay to use it if you’re an Orthodox? That’s kind of interesting. I like the Eastern version of the Ave, actually–can I use that in some instances if I want, or is that not okay?
Thanks again for your replies.
 
Silyosha said:
So, some Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don’t approve of the rosary because of “latinization”?
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Again, it is only not approved of and called a latinization when it is prayed in public in the parish before the Divine Liturgy in place of Matins.

The proper prayer before the Divine Liturgy is Matins, which is one of the hours of the Divine Office which is the public prayer of the Church, private devotions have no place in the public prayer of the Church.

Even in Latin Churches I have issues with the public recitation of the Rosary, why not pray Morning Prayer together, which, again, is part of the Liturgy of the Hours, which is the public prayer of the Church.
 
FWIW and in case anyone is interested, the “Hail Mary” in the West Syriac Churches (CC and OC) is almost identical with the Latin version.

There are some minor textual variations: in the Syriac (OC) version (in the Western dialect of the Syriac language), the word “Virgin” appears before the name Mary in the first part. In the second part, the word “Christ” does not appear after the name Jesus, but the word “Lord” appears before it. The Maronite version (in the Western dialect of the Syriac language) does not include the word “Virgin” in the first part, but it does include the word “Lord” before Jesus Christ. In the second part, the verb used for “pray for us” is more in the sense of “intercede for us.”

As far as I know, the Chaldean version (in the Eastern dialect of the Syriac language) is identical with the Latin. I don’t know about the usage in the ACoE, nor the Syro-Malankara and Syro-Malabar Churches.
 
malphono said:
FWIW and in case anyone is interested, the “Hail Mary” in the West Syriac Churches (CC and OC) is almost identical with the Latin version.

There are some minor textual variations: in the Syriac (OC) version (in the Western dialect of the Syriac language), the word “Virgin” appears before the name Mary in the first part. In the second part, the word “Christ” does not appear after the name Jesus, but the word “Lord” appears before it. The Maronite version (in the Western dialect of the Syriac language) does not include the word “Virgin” in the first part, but it does include the word “Lord” before Jesus Christ. In the second part, the verb used for “pray for us” is more in the sense of “intercede for us.”

As far as I know, the Chaldean version (in the Eastern dialect of the Syriac language) is identical with the Latin. I don’t know about the usage in the ACoE, nor the Syro-Malankara and Syro-Malabar Churches.
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“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”

Does anybody know if this concluding line of the Latin version is found in any other tradition?

Was this line added to an earlier Latin version of Ave Maria?

Just wondering.
 
Madaglan said:
“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”

Does anybody know if this concluding line of the Latin version is found in any other tradition?
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It does exist in the several Syriac versions (both Eastern and Western dialect) (ref my earlier post), but beyond that (Alexandrene or Armenian) I don’t know.
Madaglan said:
Was this line added to an earlier Latin version of Ave Maria?
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If memory serves, the second part (the “petition” as-it-were) was offically added to the Latin version at Trent, but it seems to have been in non-standard use in the West well before that.

It would be interesting to see the prayer in a pre-13th century Syriac manuscript. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to any such thing.
 
Has my question been answered? “Full of Grace” is how it reads in Greek?
 
malphono said:
Maybe I’ve missed something, but I, for one, am not sure what the question is. Those words are from Luke 1:26 …
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Yes, and in some translations, it is rendered, “highly favored.” What is it in the original Greek is what I’m asking? I’ve heard the charitoo arguements, but, do the Greeks understand the Theotokos as being, “full of grace,” or can it be implied, with how Greek reads that She is merely, “highly favoured”? …Or am I asking the wrong people since nobody here actually knows Greek?
 
malphono said:
It does exist in the several Syriac versions (both Eastern and Western dialect) (ref my earlier post), but beyond that (Alexandrene or Armenian) I don’t know.

If memory serves, the second part (the “petition” as-it-were) was offically added to the Latin version at Trent, but it seems to have been in non-standard use in the West well before that.

It would be interesting to see the prayer in a pre-13th century Syriac manuscript. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to any such thing.
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Thanks for pointing this out.
 
adstrinity said:
Yes, and in some translations, it is rendered, “highly favored.” What is it in the original Greek is what I’m asking? I’ve heard the charitoo arguements, but, do the Greeks understand the Theotokos as being, “full of grace,” or can it be implied, with how Greek reads that She is merely, “highly favoured”? …Or am I asking the wrong people since nobody here actually knows Greek?
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Full of Grace
 
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