The Orthodox Church

[ThuriferAcolyte]

This is a pretty good chart of Rites vs. Churches (though it does have a few terminology issues. There is no “Eastern Catholic Church” for example. There are Eastern Catholic ChurchES. And Ambrosian and Mozarabic aren’t “churches” but are Rites used in the West. But I think you get the picture from it). Rites are liturgical, the churches that make up the Catholic Church use rites.

credo.stormloader.com/ritesofc.htm

 

[Hesychios]

This is a pretty good chart of Rites vs. Churches (though it does have a few terminology issues. There is no “Eastern Catholic Church” for example. There are Eastern Catholic ChurchES. And Ambrosian and Mozarabic aren’t “churches” but are Rites used in the West. But I think you get the picture from it). Rites are liturgical, the churches that make up the Catholic Church use rites.

credo.stormloader.com/ritesofc.htm

It could be argued that the remnant rites in the west were once churches.

They certainly had separate origins, but have been institutionally merged. After extensive Latinizations these small remnant rites are very similar to the Latin rite, and are usually considered merely variations.

 

[excaliber]

I have a few questions for Orthodox. I have been to an Orthodox church a couple of times
but because I had a friend who was Catholic, that’s where I had the most suport.

Questions:
The Church IS the kingdom of God, so how do Orthodox explain why this is LITERALLY true with Catholics having the Vatican as a sort of capitol?

Jesus commanded that his church go and make converts. So why dose it seem that the Orthodox seem so unknown in America, when Roman Catholics are SO well known. And there are SO many more Catholic churches?

Jesus seemed like he was spelling it out when he said something like.
You are Peter and this is how Im building my church.I have seen no other church on the planet with a scripture in the bible that DIRECTLY POINTS TO ONLY THEM
AS CHRIST’S CHURCH. How can one be Orthodox with this scripture sticking out of the bible like a sore thumb?

And finaly, please explain Fatima.
How could so many people make the same thing up at the same time, with one of the 3 children becoming a nun.There was a Marian apparation in egypt that both Catholic and Orthodox agree on. But Mary said nothing to the Orthodox unlike fatima. Orthodox how do you exlain why the most visible miracles point to the Catholic church?

And Finaly what exactly do the Orthodox have that Catholics do not. If Rome is truly the wrong church, then Gods graces would be FAR stronger in the Orthodox church. any proof of that?

 

[josie_L]

Actually, this is not an accurate statement.

In the Eastern Catholic section of CAF, and also at Byzcath, you would be quickly corrected by someone who would tell you that ‘RITES’ is not an accurate term. 1] 2] 3]

They are Churches, each with co-equal dignity and particular set of canons. They are Sui Iuris. In fact, to some people referring to them as rites is an insulting throwback to the days of Praestantia Ritus Latini, a now discredited policy of the pre-Vatican II church.

So there is the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Latin Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Catholic church and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (among others).

As you can see, the terminology can be confusing.

For instance (this can happen in Chicago), an Eastern Catholic might be thought of by me or you as part of the Ukrainian Catholic church, and adamantly insist that his own, the Romanian, is a separate church!

Well, yes and no. We know that in reality these are institutionally separate organizations, but in the broadest sense they are all ‘Catholic’.

This is similar to the situation in Holy Orthodoxy. In the broadest sense they are ‘Orthodox’, sharing a common belief and in communion with each other under God, but institutionally they are separated.

I thought they were institutionally “independent” rather than “separate” organizations as they are in communion with the Bishop of Rome so they are part of the structure known as the Catholic Church. Maybe the best way I can explain what I’m trying to say is to quote from a book that I’m reading by Pope Benedict XVI, “Called to Communion”:

"At the same time, Luke expresses with this image the fact that at the moment of her birth, the Church was already catholic, already a world Church. Luke thus rules out a conception in which a local Church first arose in Jerusalem and then became the base for the gradual establishment of other local Churches that eventually grew into a federation. Luke tells us that the reverse is true: what first exists is the one Church, the Church that speaks in all tongues - the ecclesia universalis, she then generates Church in the most diverse locales, which nonetheless are all always embodiments of the one and only Church. The temporal and ontological priority lies with the unversal Church; a Church that was not catholic would not even have ecclesial reality . . . .

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Well first off…

DO NOT QUOTE WIKIPEDIA!!!

Wikipedia should be officially banned as a source for research or argumentation. It’s a good starting point for research (just skip the article and go to the sources) but it’s not a good place for sincere study. To give one example, someone in the Eastern Catholic forums quoted a wikipedia article that stated the Orthodox Church accepts eight ecumenical councils. This is completely and utterly incorrect: they accept seven. You might as well say that there are five gospels in the Christian Bible. Actually…another Wikipedia article DOES say that…

Actually, that’s a misunderstanding of the Orthodox teaching regarding the afterlife. The dead are given a taste of their punishment/reward, but still remain “asleep” until the second coming of Christ. As the very section you quoted says, “the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss.” We pray for the dead to ask for their forgiveness - but whether or not they are forgiven we do not know. We pray only because we are commanded by God to be compassionate, and so we show compassion for those who have departed from us. Whether or not God forgives them after death is up to God’s judgment. There are no teachings such as the indulgences of Luther’s time where someone was supposedly guaranteed relief from punishment if the living did certain deeds, like a legalistic game of shopping for salvation.

The fact is we do not believe in Purgatory, as I am attempting to demonstrate in this post. The article you quoted from the Orthodox Christian Information Center even mentions that no one is “purified” by “fire,” but rather through prays and lamentations a departed one might be given some relief. There is no purification going on, but rather a remission of sins through intercession and prayer rather than purification. Hell is a prison and not a hospital, but through the mercy of God someone may be relieved of their punishment.

Also, regarding the “one eternal fire” mentioned in the article, this again refers to the Orthodox concept of the afterlife, which teaches that fire does not exist solely in hell - rather, a river of fire comes forth from the throne of God and runs through both Paradise and Hell. In Hell this fire causes torment to demons and the wicked, but in Paradise it gives the saved a great joy - this is because the fire is nothing more than God’s love. To those who despise God in this life, they will despise God all the more in His kingdom; to those who love God more than their life, they will embrace His immaterial fire.

If you’re sincere in studying the Orthodox faith, there are plenty of books on the subject that are worth looking into. Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware has many that are recommended, Clark Carlton has written some addressed to both Catholics and Protestants, among others. And, of course, there’s always the Philokalia and the works of the Greek Fathers.

Thanks for your response. I’m embarrassed now because you must think I think Wikipedia is a reliable source. I don’t – I just thought it very unlikely that quote was completely fabricated.

I am trying to appreciate the distinction you are making between purification and remission of sins through prayer. But the fact remains that both East and West teach a place after death where souls are tormented, but they may still attain Heaven. I guess my next question to you would be: is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory totally incompatible with the Orthodox doctrine that we should pray for the dead? It seems to me that the differences are not significant enough to say that Catholics and Orthodox are not doing the same thing when they pray for the dead, and that Catholics and Orthodox both are avoiding a similar place by seeking holiness in this life.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Thanks for your response. I’m embarrassed now because you must think I think Wikipedia is a reliable source. I don’t – I just thought it very unlikely that quote was completely fabricated.

I am trying to appreciate the distinction you are making between purification and remission of sins through prayer. But the fact remains that both East and West teach a place after death where souls are tormented, but they may still attain Heaven. I guess my next question to you would be: is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory totally incompatible with the Orthodox doctrine that we should pray for the dead? It seems to me that the differences are not significant enough to say that Catholics and Orthodox are not doing the same thing when they pray for the dead, and that Catholics and Orthodox both are avoiding a similar place by seeking holiness in this life.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

I personally have nothing against using wikipedia, as long as there are sources referenced in the wikipedia article, and you can check them to be sure of what is said. Don’t feel embarrassed.

From what I understand, the difference is in the belief in “temporal punishment”, or punishment that is due for sins after they are forgiven. The eternal punishment of mortal sin, or Hell, is gone once your repent and are absolved. However there is still temporal punishment. This is also related to the doctrine on indulgences, which Orthodox do not have either. So, this temporal punishment can be erased through indulgences, acts of penance, or through cleansing in Purgatory. Because Orthodox do not have a concept of temporal punishment for sins after they are forgiven, there is no need for Purgatory, or indulgences for that matter.

 

[mardukm]

Dear ThuriferAcolyte,

From what I understand, the difference is in the belief in “temporal punishment”, or punishment that is due for sins after they are forgiven. The eternal punishment of mortal sin, or Hell, is gone once your repent and are absolved. However there is still temporal punishment. This is also related to the doctrine on indulgences, which Orthodox do not have either. So, this temporal punishment can be erased through indulgences, acts of penance, or through cleansing in Purgatory. Because Orthodox do not have a concept of temporal punishment for sins after they are forgiven, there is no need for Purgatory, or indulgences for that matter.

It’s not that simple. The fact is, the Orthodox, both Eastern and Oriental, DO believe in the concept of “temporal punishment.” Just ask any one of them if penance is imposed after a sin is forgiven. It’s possible that some EO Churches don’t have penance anymore - the downplaying of God’s Justice is pretty popular in EO circles, though you won’t find that among the OO.

I have indeed heard certain Eastern (not Oriental) Orthodox claim that they do not believe in “temporal punishment.” I think these certain Orthodox are guilty of throwing the baby out with the bathwater as an overreaction during their debate with Catholics (and sometimes Catholic polemicists are guilty of the same thing).

Blessings

 

[Mickey]

I had an Armenian Orthodox say the same thing to me, and I say this because I wonder if there are more like her.

What did she say? Would you like for me to begin telling you what I have heard from Roman Catholics?

 

[Mickey]

But that’s the problem she made no clarifications. And the Catholic Church is not comprised of various churches but rather various rites in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Wait a minute! I have heard many Roman Catholics tell me that the Eastern Catholics are not in communion with Rome?!?

See what I mean?

 

[Mickey]

And there are SO many more Catholic churches?

At one time the Arian heresy was in the majority.

Jesus seemed like he was spelling it out when he said something like You are Peter and this is how Im building my church.

The Orthodox have St Peter also–and all the rest of the Apostles.

And finaly, please explain Fatima.

It is not a requirement of faith for Catholics to believe in apparitions–including Fatima.

If Rome is truly the wrong church, then Gods graces would be FAR stronger in the Orthodox church.

Did someone say that “Rome is the wrong Church”? God bestows His graces as He wills.

 

[John_Larocque]

You can choose not to believe Fatima… but it’s difficult when the Pope visits the Fatima shrine, or churches are named after an apparition that is “optional” for Catholics to believe in. Actually it’s nearly impossible now to place a skeptical eye on Guadalupe, with the canoninzation of Juan Diego, unless you think that somehow John Paul II’s infallible powers failed him (which I do, in this case…)

 

[josie_L]

What did she say? Would you like for me to begin telling you what I have heard from Roman Catholics?

Are you trying to intimidate me because it won’t work?

 

[Mickey]

Are you trying to intimidate me

Of course not.

 

[josie_L]

Wait a minute! I have heard many Roman Catholics tell me that the Eastern Catholics are not in communion with Rome?!?

See what I mean?

I asked a question in which I was hoping for clarification on a thread entitled The Orthodox Church, do you see what I mean now

 

[Mickey]

I asked a question in which I was hoping for clarification on a thread entitled The Orthodox Church, do you see what I mean now

Many of your posts are confrontational toward the Holy Orthodox Church.

My responses to you were to point out that what you might hear from the uninformed is not necessarily true. And it works both ways.

See what I mean?

 

[josie_L]

Many of your posts are confrontational toward the Holy Orthodox Church.

My responses to you were to point out that what you might hear from the uninformed is not necessarily true. And it works both ways.

See what I mean?

My posts are not confrontational (although I do get that way if I feel my Church is being misrepresented) towards the Holy Orthodox Church (I believe the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ but that goes without saying), and furthermore I compare and contrast beliefs with every religion on CAF (you can look up my posting history if you do not believe me). I tend to actually work more often than not with atheists.

 

[Mickey]

My posts are not confrontational

That is not how I read them.

 

[Mickey]

My posts are not confrontational (although I do get that way if I feel my Church is being misrepresented) towards the Holy Orthodox Church

Then you should be extra careful not to misrepresent others.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Your friend is wrong. Would you like me to start telling what I hear Roman Catholics say about their Church----and then try to pawn it off as the truth?

Please stop trying to be “cute”.

Your accusations of me trying to be “cute” are becoming abusive. They stop - and right now!

 

[marlo]

they are mistaken and so are you

Wait a minute! I have heard many Roman Catholics tell me that the Eastern Catholics are not in communion with Rome?!?

See what I mean?