E
Elvis_George
Guest
At least the Karozuza and all the other prayers are the same for the seasons of Moses and Elijah-Cross
- Status
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
our Liturgy of the hours seems to be connected with our Eucharist (Holy Qurbana). So except for morning Sapra prayer, the rest have similarities to the beginning of the Qurbana.
the Liturgy of hours starts like this…
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
From all eternity and forever. Amen. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your Name. Your kingdom come, holy, holy, holy are You. Our Father in heaven, heaven and earth are full of the grandeur of Your glory. Angels and men cry out, holy, holy, holy, are You.
the Liturgy of hours starts like this…
- The Nativity Hymn (“Glory to God in the highest. Amen.” - 3x times)
Angels’ hymn at the birth of Jesus- references Luke 2:14
Peace and hope to people on earth always and forever.
Amen. - The Lord’s prayer (“Our Father in Heaven…”)
Includes references from Rev. 4:8 (Holy, Holy Holy…)
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
From all eternity and forever. Amen. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your Name. Your kingdom come, holy, holy, holy are You. Our Father in heaven, heaven and earth are full of the grandeur of Your glory. Angels and men cry out, holy, holy, holy, are You.
Last edited:
E
Elvis_George
Guest
Hey, can I please answer his question about nestorian theology and it’s connection to the Qurbana. I do think I have some ideas.
Last edited:
P
Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
Please do!
P
Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
Thanks for all the info @Alexandria2020. It looks like your liturgical year and the structure of your Liturgy of the Hours is nearly identical to us Maronites. 
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
@Phillip_Rolfes
According to Qasha Fr Varghese Pathikulangara CMI, the principal moments of salvation history are the Nativity-Epiphany, Resurrection, Pentecost, Transfiguration, the Exultation (glorification) of the cross and the Second coming of Christ.
In the Holy Qurbana we celebrate and remember these mysteries.
Deification is God’s plan for humankind. In the Holy Qurbana our deification is also carried out in this mystery by the power of the Holy Spirit. every member of the mystical body passes through the process which Christ’s humanity underwent- the 9 stages.
that’s sort of my understanding on the readings I’ve done.
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
I’ve heard the Anaphora of the Sharar has many similarities to the East Syriac Anaphora of Addai and Mari. Basically the Sharar anaphora follows the East Syriac liturgical structure.
P
Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
this is quite true. I believe we Maronites only use the Anaphora of Sharar on Great and Holy Thursday because the gifts/Gifts are already consecrated. We’ve adopted the Roman mentality that the explicit Words of Institution are essential to the consecration. Oh well…
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
same with us. Although the original Anaphora of Addai & Mari has no words of consecration- both us Syro-Malabarians and the Chaldean Catholics have added in words of consecration.
and parts were Mary is referred to as “Mother of Christ”, we have it changed to “Mother of God”.
so I guess the Maronites can be called a mixed bunch correct? both East and West Syriac. As although you are in the West Syriac category- I notice Maronites are very different from the Syriac Orthodox or counterparts such as the Malankara Syrian Catholics.
Last edited:
P
Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
Yes. The Maronites are a mix of the East and West Syriac traditions - with some influence from the Greek tradition since we’re considered/consider ourselves a Chalcedonian Church.
E
Elvis_George
Guest
Shlama! I will do this step by step…Online School is so boring and time-consuming, so I don’t have the time to do it all at once.
I’ll start with the architecture of a Church and such.
The East Syriac tradition is arguably the most Jewish of all the liturgical traditions out there, with many, many connections to Ancient Jewish traditions. This is definitely reflected in the architecture of a Church.
Churches are almost always built East to West, although nowadays that rule is not always followed. A church can be divided into 3 parts. The Qanke, The Questroma, and the Haikala. The Qanke is the holiest part of the church and represents the Holy of Holies in the old testament. The Altar (also known as the Madbha) is a representation of the Tree of Life, the Tomb of Jesus, and at times will also represent the Throne of God. In the Madbha, the Evangelion will be placed on the right side of the Madbha, representing God the Son. “When the angel assured her [the Virgin] that her wonderful conception should be of the operation of the Holy Ghost, she believed that what had been announced to her would take place; and forthwith the Word made for Himself a reasonable abode, and made it His temple. Not that He first formed it, and then afterward dwelt in it; for He wove a temple to clothe Himself withal, and clothed Himself therewith when He wove it, that this His clothing might not be any other than the clothing of the Word, which He wrought for Himself.” (Mar Abdisho wrote this prayer, and this was later incorporated in the Nativity service.) while the Mar Thoma Sleeva is placed on the left side of the Madbha, representing God the Holy Spirit. East of the Madbha is a Cross, most preferably a Mar Thoma Sleeva, representing our Lord’s second coming. The tabernacle is also present here. The Tabernacle holds the Eucharist and Traditionally the Holy Malka (will tell you what this is in another post.) 2 specially prepared niches are on either side of the Madbha. These niches are known as the Beth Gaza and contain the Divine Mysteries. This is unlike the Syriac Orthodox church and churches that follow the West Syriac tradition were the mysteries are kept in the Madbha during the Qurbana. Next, we have the Questroma. The Questroma and the Qanke are separated by 3 steps, representing the steps to Golgotha. The 2 are also separated by a Veil. The Veil represents the veil the separated the Holy of Holies in the Temple of Jerusalem and reminds us of the sanctity of the Madbha and Qanke. The Questroma represents the Heavenly Jerusalem. The Bema is a raised platform in the Questroma. This concept follows the concept of the Bimah in Synagogues, which is a raised platform were the rabbis taught. The Bema (or table if the word) serves the same purpose in the East Syriac tradition, where the celebrant preaches and reads the Evangelion from here. We also use it for the Liturgy of the hours. The West Syriac tradition also uses it, but only for the tuybo (predatory prayers.) Next and the final part of a Church is the Haikala, or the Nave. This represents the Earth, and this is where the faithful sit.
I’ll start with the architecture of a Church and such.
The East Syriac tradition is arguably the most Jewish of all the liturgical traditions out there, with many, many connections to Ancient Jewish traditions. This is definitely reflected in the architecture of a Church.
Churches are almost always built East to West, although nowadays that rule is not always followed. A church can be divided into 3 parts. The Qanke, The Questroma, and the Haikala. The Qanke is the holiest part of the church and represents the Holy of Holies in the old testament. The Altar (also known as the Madbha) is a representation of the Tree of Life, the Tomb of Jesus, and at times will also represent the Throne of God. In the Madbha, the Evangelion will be placed on the right side of the Madbha, representing God the Son. “When the angel assured her [the Virgin] that her wonderful conception should be of the operation of the Holy Ghost, she believed that what had been announced to her would take place; and forthwith the Word made for Himself a reasonable abode, and made it His temple. Not that He first formed it, and then afterward dwelt in it; for He wove a temple to clothe Himself withal, and clothed Himself therewith when He wove it, that this His clothing might not be any other than the clothing of the Word, which He wrought for Himself.” (Mar Abdisho wrote this prayer, and this was later incorporated in the Nativity service.) while the Mar Thoma Sleeva is placed on the left side of the Madbha, representing God the Holy Spirit. East of the Madbha is a Cross, most preferably a Mar Thoma Sleeva, representing our Lord’s second coming. The tabernacle is also present here. The Tabernacle holds the Eucharist and Traditionally the Holy Malka (will tell you what this is in another post.) 2 specially prepared niches are on either side of the Madbha. These niches are known as the Beth Gaza and contain the Divine Mysteries. This is unlike the Syriac Orthodox church and churches that follow the West Syriac tradition were the mysteries are kept in the Madbha during the Qurbana. Next, we have the Questroma. The Questroma and the Qanke are separated by 3 steps, representing the steps to Golgotha. The 2 are also separated by a Veil. The Veil represents the veil the separated the Holy of Holies in the Temple of Jerusalem and reminds us of the sanctity of the Madbha and Qanke. The Questroma represents the Heavenly Jerusalem. The Bema is a raised platform in the Questroma. This concept follows the concept of the Bimah in Synagogues, which is a raised platform were the rabbis taught. The Bema (or table if the word) serves the same purpose in the East Syriac tradition, where the celebrant preaches and reads the Evangelion from here. We also use it for the Liturgy of the hours. The West Syriac tradition also uses it, but only for the tuybo (predatory prayers.) Next and the final part of a Church is the Haikala, or the Nave. This represents the Earth, and this is where the faithful sit.
Last edited:
E
Elvis_George
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Madbha)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(The front table is the Bema and the 2 niches are the Beth Gaza)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Mar Thoma Sleeva)
(Madbha)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(The front table is the Bema and the 2 niches are the Beth Gaza)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Mar Thoma Sleeva)
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
What excommunication? No one in SMC has ever been excommunicated for anything. Even the traditional pro-Syriac oriented clergy. In fact the Syro-Malabar Church was raised to a major archiepiscopal church in 1992 (headed under a centralized Major Archbishop) due to a priest/monk who wrote various letters during the time of Vatican II in 1960s. This priest was traditional and pro-Syriac oriented and was striving for the independence of the SMC Church. Now due to efforts of people like him the SMC has a Synod that elected the current Major Archbishop (first time by the Synod itself as the previous Major Archbishops were appointed by Vatican directly).
Due to Vatican II, the SMC is free to be more Syriac oriented like a true East Syriac Rite Church. But the problem the SMC faces is the pro-Latin faction within the SMC itself that want to be more latinized.
The SMC was suppressed by the Latin Church in India to the state of Kerala. The SMC missionary priests had to put on a Latin identity when going outside Kerala. It was only in 2017 that the all-India Eparchy of Shamshabad was erected for the SMC which has jurisdiction all over India. So now the SMC is more free and autonomous. But it’s sad the SMC had to wait till the 21st century.
Last edited:
Y
YHWH_Christ
Guest
A similar thing happened with the Oriental Orthodox, who misunderstood the dyophysites because of how ingrained they were in Cyril’s theological tradition and rejected Chalcedon as heretical and were likewise declared heretics by the rest of the Church. They are in fact completely orthodox in their understanding of the nature of Christ and so were the dyophysites. They were talking past each other because they were utilizing terminoloy from separate theological traditions. I pray that my separated Orthodox brethren return to the fold of the Orthodox Catholic Church.
Last edited:
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
That priest was Mar John Bosco Thottakara C.M.I. (1920 - 2005). aka Mar Guru Yohend.
Last edited:
E
Elvis_George
Guest
Yes, Miaphystism is definitely not heresy. The Syriac Orthodox, Church, in particular, is my favorite Church and you’ll see high populations of both Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite Syrian) and Malankara Orthodox in India.
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
Church of the East monk Rabban Bar Sauma received communion from Pope Nicholas IV on Palm Sunday in Rome (13th century). He was a Turkic monk of the Church of the East and based in China. He’s known for traveling from China to Europe, and he died in Baghdad in modern Iraq. One of his students became the Patriarch of the Church of the East in the 13th century (Mar Yahballaha III).
https://www.encyclopedia.com/scienc...-reverse-marco-polo-travels-beijing-bourdeaux
https://www.encyclopedia.com/scienc...-reverse-marco-polo-travels-beijing-bourdeaux
Last edited:
E
Elvis_George
Guest
Shlama to all!
Pls do forgive me for taking so much time, as I am currently in online school, which takes up a lot of time.
So now we will start with the Holy Qurbana .
The Holy Qurbana can be divided into 7 sections:
The Introductory Rites:
As per the Holy Synod, the first 2 rites are celebrated in the Bema ad populum, the 3rd rite is celebrated 50% ad orientam, and the other 4 rites are celebrated ad orientam (except for the blessing.) This was a compromise set for the 2 warring factions in the Syro Malabar Church (the pro-Latin and pro-Syriac factions.)
The Syro Malabar Qurbana starts with the “Puqdankon” (As the Lord Commanded)
This introductory prayer was not present in the Qurbana until the 1960s but, the prayer is definitely East Syriac in nature. The prayer commemorates Passover. The priest is asking for “permission” from the believers, as Moses had done when he was leading the Israelites. The people respond by saying, he had permission to celebrate the Holy Qurbana from Jesus himself.
“Thesbotha L’alaha Bamrawme” (Glory to God in the Highest)
Then the Priest exclaims “Glory to God in the Highest” 3 times with the people responding either “Amen”, or “Peace and hope to people on Earth, always and forever.” This commemorates the Nativity of Christ.
“Awun D’washmaya” (Our Father who art in Heaven)
Here, the people sing the 3 variants of the “Our Father.” A notable feature the thrice holy (Qandish, Qandish,Qandishat or Holy, Holy, thou art Holy.) This feature is a common feature in the East Syriac liturgy and is symbolizes God’s holiness.
Psalms
The East Syriac tradition is very much based on the Old Testament and we can especially see this in the Hudra (the East Syriac divine office) where at least 3 different psalms are recited. In the Qurbana, only 1 is said due to the lack of time. This represents Jesus learning the writings of the prophets and the Torah before his public life.
“Laku Mara” (Lord of All)
This is one of the most holiest moments of the Qurbana, in which the veil is opened. The servers incense the Madbha, while the Celebrant and the people bow down in awe and respect. This song represents 2 things: first, the vision the prophet Isaiah had of God in the temple and second, the Epiphany, where God the Father reveals the identity of Jesus during his Baptism.
Pls do forgive me for taking so much time, as I am currently in online school, which takes up a lot of time.
So now we will start with the Holy Qurbana .
The Holy Qurbana can be divided into 7 sections:
- Introductory rites
- Ministry of the Word of God
- Rites of Preparation
- Anaphora
- Rites of Reconciliation
- Rites of Communion
- Rites of Conclusion
The Introductory Rites:
As per the Holy Synod, the first 2 rites are celebrated in the Bema ad populum, the 3rd rite is celebrated 50% ad orientam, and the other 4 rites are celebrated ad orientam (except for the blessing.) This was a compromise set for the 2 warring factions in the Syro Malabar Church (the pro-Latin and pro-Syriac factions.)
The Syro Malabar Qurbana starts with the “Puqdankon” (As the Lord Commanded)
This introductory prayer was not present in the Qurbana until the 1960s but, the prayer is definitely East Syriac in nature. The prayer commemorates Passover. The priest is asking for “permission” from the believers, as Moses had done when he was leading the Israelites. The people respond by saying, he had permission to celebrate the Holy Qurbana from Jesus himself.
“Thesbotha L’alaha Bamrawme” (Glory to God in the Highest)
Then the Priest exclaims “Glory to God in the Highest” 3 times with the people responding either “Amen”, or “Peace and hope to people on Earth, always and forever.” This commemorates the Nativity of Christ.
“Awun D’washmaya” (Our Father who art in Heaven)
Here, the people sing the 3 variants of the “Our Father.” A notable feature the thrice holy (Qandish, Qandish,Qandishat or Holy, Holy, thou art Holy.) This feature is a common feature in the East Syriac liturgy and is symbolizes God’s holiness.
Psalms
The East Syriac tradition is very much based on the Old Testament and we can especially see this in the Hudra (the East Syriac divine office) where at least 3 different psalms are recited. In the Qurbana, only 1 is said due to the lack of time. This represents Jesus learning the writings of the prophets and the Torah before his public life.
“Laku Mara” (Lord of All)
This is one of the most holiest moments of the Qurbana, in which the veil is opened. The servers incense the Madbha, while the Celebrant and the people bow down in awe and respect. This song represents 2 things: first, the vision the prophet Isaiah had of God in the temple and second, the Epiphany, where God the Father reveals the identity of Jesus during his Baptism.
Last edited:
A
Alexandria2020
Guest
I’m told by someone who has researched into this a lot, that Puqdankon was a part of the Malabar Church pre-16th century. This is exclusive to our Indian church and not a part of the East Syriac Rite churches of the Middle East. So by the 60s I think they basically brought this old part back.
Last edited:
- Status