The Our Father---Do you join hands or not?

[MrS]

Voice_Of_Reason:

It’s all weak. I’m tired of it. The Church isn’t a social hall. Have some respect! Keep you’re hands to yourself folded or whatever. Also, how about kneeling during the Eucharistic prayers (I believe that is the right word, forgive me if I’m wrong as I have a migrane over this hurricane. I’m speaking about when the Priest says “When supper was ended…”,etc). Show some respect! Unless you’re physically unable to kneel, you should be on you’re knees. I’m tirred of it and unfortunitly stuff like this has led many Catholics away from it’s teachings.

If Catholics really knew they were in the presence of God, they might spend the entire Mass prostrate, in silence.

MrS

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

Exacly MrS. You’ve seen it in poll numbers, you’ve seen in parishes. Many parishioners don’t know what is going on or they know what the Church stance is and they being the fountain of all knowledge, reject it and it’s a shame. How much I wish tradition would come back. But unfortunitly, the way things are going I don’t think we have seen the worst yet.

 

[mtr01]

stellina:

Both of these things are new to us Catholics. I’m only 40 & I never saw them at all until just a few years ago. Granted, Catholics in my neck of the woods are rather orthodox so maybe they just didn’t catch on until recently.

There is a name for the posture of holding up your hands and it’s totally separate from the hand-holding thing - I’ve seen a thread or two about it on some of these forums.

It’s called the orans posture, and it is used by the priest during the eucharistic prayer. It should never be imitated by the laity during the mass. It creates weird situations such as when the priest assumes this posture, the deacon doesn’t (according to the rubric of the mass) and yet the laity do (it looks really wierd to me and can be confusing to some); or when the priest is no longer in the posture, but the laity still are (just plain inappropriate).

There is a huge thread on this over in the Liturgy forum. There is much information posted there from Vatican sources on why using this posture, as well as holding hands during the Our Father, is inappropriate and should not be condoned. From what I understand, this would apply to the laity in as a whole, but I don’t think there is any objection to family members holding hands. I’m not sure.

 

[Theodora]

What I don’t quite understand is how this gesture seemed to be just foisted upon us. The ones that don’t mind it can be felt silly if the ones next to them rather not hold hands. I have read that the holding of hands during Mass is an inappropriate gesture. It does not denotes unity for Catholics in Holy Mass - it is the Holy Eucharist that unites us.

I don’t know if some of you have ever attended a Teen Mass or Children’s Mass. I have, and I cringe when the teens or the younger children are asked to come up the altar and assemble around the priest and servers before the prayers leading up to the consecration start and to remain till after the sign of peace. When everyone should be kneeling when Jesus is brought down upon the altar, we have all these peope standing. What all this is good for I have never understood.

So, here we have: you may hold hands - you don’t have to hold hands; people standing at the most important part of the Mass - others kneeling.; people who love to shake hands, right after Jesus is brought in our midst - others doing it reluctantly for whatever reason, clammy hands, spreading desease, not to mention the creation of the air of socializing instead of focusing on the awesomeness of what just happened through the priest’s actions: Jesus’ August Presence in our midst.

As with all the seemingly constant changes and innovations, I have never heard any good explanation why all of a sudden things are being done differently. We are just informed we are now going to do things this way or that way.

The latest change in the Teen Mass and Children’s Mass is that de bishops have decided not to call teens and the smaller children up to altar anymore just before the consecration. Thank goodness - no explanation given why it was done in the first place.

Sorry I went off on an tangent and did not stick to subject of the Holding of Hands. But you know, how that goes… one thought leads to another.

God Bless You All.

Theodora

 

[findingmyway]

here, all over the philippines, it is part of our tradition to hold hands during “our father”…

i got great insights from reading your thoughts on this… but it just reminded me of the fact that we truly are unique and we have different traditions, culture, etc… we should just embrace the fact that we are all different. we have our own comfort zones so let’s respect each other’s comfort zones.

speaking of tradition, do some of u know that here in philippines, we have the simbang gabi, a novena nationwide that starts on dec 16th and ends in the 24th and is celebrated in the early morning, around 4:00-5:00am, depending on the parish? it’s really beautiful here in christmas…

peace to all!

 

[kfarose2585]

This is truly an interesting topic! Dmm, you are right, Eucharist is not merely a symbol. I didn’t mean to make it sound like I thought it was. You said what I wanted to say much better than I did, so I won’t write another word in my defense. =)
As far as hand-holding and other appropriate/inappropriate gestures–I am fascinated by all the variations on “the norm.” I have NEVER, in my 2-ish decades of attending a Catholic church, seen people not hold hands during the Our Father. Apparently this is not the case elsewhere. I also do still see teens being called forward during the Life Teen Mass, just as adults encircle the priest during the other Masses. Why is this considered wrong elsewhere? Unless those teens act inappropriately, I see no problem with it. They are trained eucharistic ministers, just like their older counterparts. Children, on the other hand, are no longer called forward, and rightfully so (in my opinion).

I’ve noticed one strange trend lately that relates somewhat to the hand-holding one. Do people at your parishes stand before and after receiving Eucharist? All of a sudden, it seems that kneeling is “passe.” Why has this happened? It seems rather disrespectful to me, plus I feel like we look more like a confused church than a unified one since about half of all the laity stands, while the other half kneels. Everyone goes back to sitting when the priest does, but it’s still weird. Also, is it normal for one to sing right after receiving the body and blood of Christ? I thought we were supposed to pray first, then we may resume singing.

I wonder how much of this is up to the bishops, how much is up to personal preference, and how much is truly canonical. I never realized that there was so much variation in the Univeral Church! I believe that some of it should be celebrated, though some other things probably ought to be made more uniform. What does everyone else think?

By the way…findingmyway–that is very cool.

 

[sparkle]

lorly3170:

Does anyone know exactly what you are suppose to do. I see many people that hold hands during The Our Father. I know that our bishop doesn’t encourage it but they don’t discourage it if one chooses to do that.
Thanks
Lori

The joining hands in the Our Father during Mass is THE most beautiful part of the Mass to me second to receiving Jesus in the Eucharist. I wouldn’t want it any other way. I’m in tears every time----and so is my Protestant husband. So beautiful and unifying! The way Christians should be. There is so much that’s right about the precious and One Holy Catholic Church --I could explode. I sure know why I’m converting!!!

 

[sparkle]

findingmyway:

here, all over the philippines, it is part of our tradition to hold hands during “our father”… i got great insights from reading your thoughts on this… but it just reminded me of the fact that we truly are unique and we have different traditions, culture, etc… we should just embrace the fact that we are all different. we have our own comfort zones so let’s respect each other’s comfort zones.speaking of tradition, do some of u know that here in philippines, we have the simbang gabi, a novena nationwide that starts on dec 16th and ends in the 24th and is celebrated in the early morning, around 4:00-5:00am, depending on the parish? it’s really beautiful here in christmas…peace to all!

Please tell me friend “findingmyway” -----is the Catholic Church very prominent in the Phillipines? What is the main religion there? Is there some sort of Protestant denomination on every block trying to recruit folks like I’ve heard about? I have some friends that are missionaries in the Phillipines, and some friends who are from there, who are quite active in the Assembly of God Church here in the States. Would love to hear from you.

 

[otm]

Della:

We are not to hold hands during the Our Father at Mass because this gesture is not a part of the rubrics of the Liturgy of the Mass as found in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. Only those gestures that are called for ought to be done, and hand holding is definitely not called for. The sign of our unity is, as others have pointed out, the Eucharist, not holding hands. Besides, the Sign of Peace follows the Our Father and is a better time to take the hand of ones neighbor, signifying the peace of Christ and our fellowship of peace in Him.

There have been several threads on this; I thought it was entirely beat to death. Although I have seen comments in the threads about someone reaching out to hold hands with the thread respondent, who rebuffed them, and the person reaching out acted in an uncharitable manner, my experience has been that most hand holders are not uncharitable. I have, however, seen a marked lack of charity in response by people who don’t want to hold hands.

Given the fact that both Rome and the bishops know that there are those who detest this practice, it is questionable that it is prohibited; they spoke forcefully in a number of areas in the GIRM and chose to ignore this issue. And in the response to Cardinal George’s dubium about having to stand after returning to the pew after Communion, Rome’s response was that they did not intend to be that rigid.

Thus, the Response by Archbishop Chaput that those who wish to hold hands may do so, and those who wish not to, may also do so, it is essentially a non-issue.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

robertaf:

Greetings

Holding hands during the Our Father is not against any rules or an abuse. That is a fact. It is not mentioned.

The fact that it is not mentioned is why it is against the rules. The GIRM is written proscriptively, meaning if it’s not there don’t do it. I’ll parahrase Karl Keating: The rubrics don’t say not to do cartwheels down the aisle for communion either.

Some Bishops OK it and some do not. If some Bishops think it is OK, what does that tell you? Does it tell you that some parishioners can interpret the rubrics better than a Bishop, the Authority God puts over us? I don’t think so. It would appear to be up to the Bishop of your own Diocese. Some Bishops leave it to the Pastor of a Parish to decide what best fits that Parish. It is a non-issue where the rules are concerned.

Yes, it’s quite possible for some lay Catholic to interpret the rubrics better that some bishops. Many don’t know any better, others have agendas. And no bishop (or priest, or layperson such as the diocesan liturgist) has the authority to change this.

 

[findingmyway]

sparkle:

Please tell me friend “findingmyway” -----is the Catholic Church very prominent in the Phillipines? What is the main religion there? Is there some sort of Protestant denomination on every block trying to recruit folks like I’ve heard about? I have some friends that are missionaries in the Phillipines, and some friends who are from there, who are quite active in the Assembly of God Church here in the States. Would love to hear from you.

hi sparkle. yes, catholic as a religion is very prominent here in the philippines. it’s the main religion all over philippines. the muslims, however are dominant in the mindanao area. there are certain concentrated areas where a lot of Protestant denomination thrive, and there are some who recruit our non-practicing catholic brothers and sisters. in fact, that’s one of the most easiest way to get them in. there are a lot, sad to say, non-practicing catholics and when they find a congregation that treats them warmly, they switch religions in time. hope i answered your question correctly.

 

[jeffreedy789]

personally (and i know i’m in the minority), i like the custom of holding hands during the Our Father. we do it at our (largely college) church, and it, i think, reflects bonds of deep friendship and love between our members. i don’t find it weird or tacky at all. and it seems to be very meaningful to many members, who lack human contact in an increasingly frigid and paranoid (about germs) world.

 

[Teresa9]

Why do you need to join hands? You are all joined in your hearts in the unity of the Eucharist that is Christ Jesus. Do you have to touch someone to show them you love them? Don’t we offer the sign of peace to re-enforce our love for each other in Mass? And isn’t the Our Father more about Our Father and not about us (though there is petition within that prayer, but it is for the glorification of Our Father in that we recogise our very sustinance is from Him)?

God Bless you and much peace and love to you xxx

 

[loyola_rambler]

We’ve always held hands as a family, so holding hands during the Our Father was always just a family thing for us. In the AD of Chicago, it has been encouraged for years and we felt comfortable teaching the kids to pray together, both at home and at mass, as a very special moment. Then last fall I moved to central Michigan with my kids and found that it’s not only “encouraged” here, it’s actually invited by every priest at every mass I’ve been to in the last year up here. Yes, the priests invite the congregation to join hands in the Lord’s prayer. Moreover, the priests come off of the altar and join hands with the lectors and cantor in the front row. Not joining hands in this diocese is seen as rude and uptight. So if we do it as a family (and we’re a large enough family to take up the pew), then doing it during mass when the rest of the congregation is doing it isn’t the worst thing in the world.

Is it an abuse under GIRM? That’s a matter for the bishops to determine, not us. Our bishop interpreted the lack of ANY PRESCRIBED gesture as meaning that ANY REVERENT gesture is appropriate. Do others disagree? Apparently so. But the NCCB/USCC has not stated that it’s disallowed and the official statement on the hand holding/Orans debate is non-committal.

So before “making a statement” that you’re not going to do it, just not going to happen, and you’re feeling like decking anyone who invites you to join hands, think about how un-Christlike it is to refute the priest and the congregation in a gesture of defiance at the very time that you’re praying to “OUR” Father. It’s not the “MY Father”, so your attempt at private prayer in public is a little disingenuous considering the words that are coming from your mouth and hopefully from your heart.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

loyola rambler:

We’ve always held hands as a family, so holding hands during the Our Father was always just a family thing for us. In the AD of Chicago, it has been encouraged for years and we felt comfortable teaching the kids to pray together, both at home and at mass, as a very special moment. Then last fall I moved to central Michigan with my kids and found that it’s not only “encouraged” here, it’s actually invited by every priest at every mass I’ve been to in the last year up here. Yes, the priests invite the congregation to join hands in the Lord’s prayer. Moreover, the priests come off of the altar and join hands with the lectors and cantor in the front row. Not joining hands in this diocese is seen as rude and uptight. So if we do it as a family (and we’re a large enough family to take up the pew), then doing it during mass when the rest of the congregation is doing it isn’t the worst thing in the world.

Is it an abuse under GIRM? That’s a matter for the bishops to determine, not us. Our bishop interpreted the lack of ANY PRESCRIBED gesture as meaning that ANY REVERENT gesture is appropriate. Do others disagree? Apparently so. But the NCCB/USCC has not stated that it’s disallowed and the official statement on the hand holding/Orans debate is non-committal.

So before “making a statement” that you’re not going to do it, just not going to happen, and you’re feeling like decking anyone who invites you to join hands, think about how un-Christlike it is to refute the priest and the congregation in a gesture of defiance at the very time that you’re praying to “OUR” Father. It’s not the “MY Father”, so your attempt at private prayer in public is a little disingenuous considering the words that are coming from your mouth and hopefully from your heart.

Rude and uptight???
Well, isn’t it rather un-Christlike to accuse those who are different from you that THEY are being un-Christlike??? I thought ours was a UNIVERSAL church and all are welcome. Your diocese sounds like it is not open to different cultures.

 

[Joanna]

I try not to hold hands. I stand with my hands touching in prayer (not orans). However, if the person next to me doesn’t get the message, I will hold his/her hand and not make an issue of it, since parishes generally fail to advise parishioners.

I’ve only heard one priest ask parishioners not to hold hands because, as he explained, this prayer which Jesus’ taught us is directed to our Father and we should as individuals be focusing on Him not one another. That works for me.

 

[Cat]

I was taught in RCIA that GIRM says that it is improper to hold hands or lift hands during the Our Father, so I adhere to that teaching.

I visited one Catholic Church at an Air Force base where the hand-holding was “forced” upon me. I found it uncomfortable to be made to go against what I had been taught, but I also realized that perhaps it was done at the Air Force base to show a unity with those who are suffering through separation from their loved ones due to wars and other duties to country.

I don’t think the Lord condemned me for “breaking a rule.” But I think He would condemn me for not seeking to love my fellow Christians and understand them.

When we first visited the Catholic Church, we made an appointment with a priest to find out what was going on in Mass so we wouldn’t do anything improper. He impressed upon us that Catholics have different practices, and that most of the practices are OK. E.g., many will kneel and pray when they first enter the Church, but some won’t, and that’s OK. Some will pray with uplifted hands during the songs, and most won’t, and both are OK.

I was very appreciative of his openness and the openness of the Catholic Church. I never feel awkward in the Catholic Church, whereas in the Protestant churches I have been part of, I always felt like I didn’t “look” spiritual enough. (Especially in the Assemblies of God, where the intro to the song is the cue to raise your hands, close your eyes, and start swaying, and if you don’t, someone, even though their eyes are closed, will look rudely at you if you don’t comply!)

I realize that there are things that are irreverent and not allowed in Catholic Mass, but that many of the other practices are strictly cultural. I have a friend at my church who grew up in Puerto Rico. She tells me that what she misses more than anything else is the lively music in her Catholic Church. Our music is very quiet and often pretty slow; yes, it is reverent. But so was her “lively” music.

 

[robertaf]

Cat:

I was taught in RCIA that GIRM says that it is improper to hold hands or lift hands during the Our Father, so I adhere to that teaching.
.

This is not correct. GIRM does not say it is improper. It simply does not address it.

I am with Loyola, it is up to the Bishops to decide.

 

[Fidelis]

loyola rambler:

So before “making a statement” that you’re not going to do it, just not going to happen, and you’re feeling like decking anyone who invites you to join hands, think about how un-Christlike it is to refute the priest and the congregation in a gesture of defiance at the very time that you’re praying to “OUR” Father. It’s not the “MY Father”, so your attempt at private prayer in public is a little disingenuous considering the words that are coming from your mouth and hopefully from your heart.

You were going OK until you got to here. A gesture of defiance?? Since when it is an act of defiance to not participate in something that is NOT prescribed? This is EXACTLY what is wrong with this hand-holding nonsense. We have gone from a touchy-feely non-mandated act that started out somewhere as a local custom, and it has become something that if you don’t choose to join in, it’s an act of defiance and uncharitableness!!

From the GIRM:

Movements and Posture

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

Aside from the fact that it is not called for in the rubrics, there are many reasons why people object to holding hands during the Our Father. For many people, hand-holding is a very personal action shared with those who are very close–spouses, lovers, parents and children. To be forced to participate or appear hopelessly churlish is unfair and embarrassing to them. A person who does not wish to hold hands in a congregation of people who have come to fully expect everyone to hold hands, is forced to take a perceptively negative action, i.e. actively declining to hold hands. This marks that person out as an unfriendly boor when, ironically, all they are doing is declining to participate in an act that is not even required! What about the objection “At Mass we are all supposed to be one big family anyway; we should be able to show the love we are supposed to feel.” Well, that is the express purpose of “the kiss of peace” before Holy Communion. In some cultures, a fraternal gesture is literally a kiss. In the Orient, it is a polite bow. In our culture, it is a friendly shaking of hands. To go from a more intimate expression of love (holding hands) to a less intimate (a handshake) does not make any sense. If someone wants to hold hands with their spouse or kids during the Our Father, more power to them. When the entire congregation automatically goes into the stretch across the pews mode at the invitation to pray, it becomes intrusive and presumptive.

Frankly, I am astounded that people go to so much trouble to defend any un-mandated action that, effectively, forces other people, willing or not, to participate. If someone wants to individually whirl like a dervish or bounce on one foot, or pick their I don’t know what and it makes them feel holier to do so during Mass, then go for it. But for goodness sake, just because it makes you feel good, don’t insist on defending and promoting an un-mandated practice that makes others feel like boors if they don’t feel the same way about it and decline to play along.

 

[Podo2004]

Voice_Of_Reason:

It’s all weak. I’m tired of it. The Church isn’t a social hall. Have some respect! Keep you’re hands to yourself folded or whatever. Also, how about kneeling during the Eucharistic prayers (I believe that is the right word, forgive me if I’m wrong as I have a migrane over this hurricane. I’m speaking about when the Priest says “When supper was ended…”,etc). Show some respect! Unless you’re physically unable to kneel, you should be on you’re knees. I’m tirred of it and unfortunitly stuff like this has led many Catholics away from it’s teachings.

(sigh) geez i don’t understand what it is with catholics today! Can’t give peace, argues about holding hands at the our father, and kneeling ( i stand through the eucharistic prayer)
catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0179.htm
it says that we are counted worthy to STAND in your presence lord.

Podo The Hobbit