The "Our Father": Holding Hands?

[netmilsmom]

Nimue:

On the other hand, I’m very glad they are at Mass. They could be sleeping in.

Me too!
But what really gets me are the people who come to our very Historically Catholic parish and look so very uncomfortable doing the group Orans with family members or drop hands as soon as they see no one else is doing it.

Someone needs to say again that this is not group peer pressure in the pews that makes the hand holding acceptable.

 

[Michael_C]

I hold hands with my family during the Our Father and I bow during the creed and when the cross passes me during the procession. I wonder if people think I’m a progressive that has no idea what’s going on…?

 

[Confiteor]

DIT:

I think hold of or raising of hands is more an act of imitation of those around you than a sign of respect, sign of prayer, or a sign sign of the communial aspect of our faith. I think many (if not most) do it because someone next to or around them is doing it. It is a case of peer pressure or of “not wanting to look like the odd person out.”

If you asked most catholics what the orans posture was, they would tell you it was some sort of yoga move.

If the faithful are going to assume a position in mass, let’s make it for the right reasons. Let it be explained (taught) to the faithful. Let them understand that there is a reason for this being done. Let it be meaningful instead of a copycat jesture that many feel it is today.

I am not saying that if you feel the Holy Spirit moving you to extend your hands in prayer and worship, it is wrong. I am saying that in this case, imitiation is not the greatest form of flattery.

You are probably right!! Perhaps a little catechesis at the end of mass or in the bulletin might help put people right…gently. Better to emphasis what IS to be done than to criticize which I suppose most pastors would shrink from…

 

[Lapsed]

Oh I hate when that happens. But you know, some people here will tell you that people would NEVER be so rude as to grab your hand!!
[/quote]

Then they should come to the parish here and learn otherwise. Refusal to participate is also greeted with snide comments.

And yes, it’s the hand holding orans thing as well…

There’s two parishes in my community. One is in an ecummenical centre shared with the United Church of Canada (very liberal) and might as well be in a conference room. The other is an otherwise wonderfully traditional parish which for some unfathomable reason engages in the hand holding thing.

The SSPX church in my neighbourhood is starting to look pretty good.

 

[Catholic_mommy]

We hold hands at our church and it doesn’t bother me a bit. However, sometimes people choose not to and that doesn’t bother me either All you have to do is say, no thank you and either keep your hands folded in front of you or put your hands out in front of you, no hand holding required at our church if you so choose

 

[netmilsmom]

Catholic mommy:

All you have to do is say, no thank you and either keep your hands folded in front of you or put your hands out in front of you, no hand holding required at our church if you so choose

You’re lucky.
Did you read post 24?
Some people are not so polite.

 

[aurora77]

I’m not going to get into the “should we hold hands debate.” To the OP–if viruses and feeling like you’re being rude are concerns, could you wear gloves? There’s a woman at my parish who wears classy, old fashioned gloves; I don’t know why, maybe she shares your concerns. The sign of peace is probably problematic for you too. Don’t worry about seeming rude; if your health is so much at risk, people will understand.

 

[MatsMom]

Hello All:

May I ask what the orans position is???

You are probably right!! Perhaps a little catechesis at the end of mass or in the bulletin might help put people right…gently. Better to emphasis what IS to be done than to criticize which I suppose most pastors would shrink from…

We don’t have anyone that holds hands or anything different at our mass. Normally if people get off track or start to try and change anything, Father says somthing right away, he puts a notice in the bullitin.

The only people I see hold hands are visitors.
We are very blessed with our pastor, he’s very firm with the teaching of the church yet very kind with his instruction. I could not praise him enough and everyone I know feels the same way about him.

Peace to all
MM

 

[thistle]

Lapsed:

The sooner this practise is supressed, the better. I feel I cannot go to Sunday Mass because of this. I go to a poorly attended daily Mass through the week where I won’t feel coerced into an activity I am extremely uncomfortable with. Holding hands is something I do with my family, not strangers or people I barely know.

The prevelance of hand holding is keeping people out of the Church, and I’m one of them.

Your faith must be pretty weak if something as trivial as holding hands is keeping you away from church, and your statement that this is the reason for falling attendences is simply ludicrous!!

 

[HagiaSophia]

thistle:

Your faith must be pretty weak if something as trivial as holding hands is keeping you away from church, and your statement that this is the reason for falling attendences is simply ludicrous!!

Well at least one archbishop has expressed the same feeling toward it from his experience with parishoners:

B) Kiss of Peace. The Kiss of Peace is not optional. Any parish that does not have this Kiss of Peace is simply out of order. No successor of mine will change this integral part of the Mass.

Holding hands is another matter. This is not a rubric approved by either the local bishop, or the Conference of bishops, or Rome. It entered the Catholic Church through the Charismatic Renewal and has no tradition among us. Some dislike it very much and will not participate at Mass at certain parishes because of it. Personally, I find it childish and uncharitable - in that it makes so many people, especially elderly, feel uncomfortable. I have no idea how my successor would deal with it, but my prognosis is that this innovation will not last long.

jsonline.com/news/state/feb00/weakland022500.asp

Published Milwaukee Journal

Archbishop Weakland’s letter to priests
January 7, 2000

 

[HagiaSophia]

Mat(name removed by moderator):

May I ask what the orans position is???

The standard orans position is elbows tucked aginst waist with palms of hands facing up – you will see this position in many holy cards and paintings depicting saints praying.

Today you see all kinds of variations, hands upraised, others extending one arm up and out as if in Roman salute – like so many things, a little change here, a little different there…

 

[HagiaSophia]

leaner:

I refrain from holding hands (my current parish does not do it) and the orans (my current parish DOES do it) – I don’t much care what others think is in my heart; my words and actions throughout the mass and afterwards are what I concentrate on to be a witness to what is happening at mass. If they want to think otherwise, they only need to watch me with my children or others during the “coffee/donuts” time and they will know I’m none of those things. I try to make my actions speak louder than my “inactions”, so to speak…

Didn’t Jimmy Akins write once that the Vatican Document Notitiae (Not 11 (1975) 226) state the practice of holding hands during the Our Father should be “repudiated”???or has memory betrayed me again???

 

[netmilsmom]

HagiaSophia:

Well at least one archbishop has expressed the same feeling toward it from his experience with parishoners:

B) Kiss of Peace. The Kiss of Peace is not optional. Any parish that does not have this Kiss of Peace is simply out of order. No successor of mine will change this integral part of the Mass.

Holding hands is another matter. This is not a rubric approved by either the local bishop, or the Conference of bishops, or Rome. It entered the Catholic Church through the Charismatic Renewal and has no tradition among us. Some dislike it very much and will not participate at Mass at certain parishes because of it. Personally, I find it childish and uncharitable - in that it makes so many people, especially elderly, feel uncomfortable. I have no idea how my successor would deal with it, but my prognosis is that this innovation will not last long.

jsonline.com/news/state/feb00/weakland022500.asp

Published Milwaukee Journal

Archbishop Weakland’s letter to priests
January 7, 2000

Well God Bless him!
I’ve been saying this forever. If I am uncomfortale with holding the hands of strangers, I am called unchristian.
But we must consider the comfort level of others. This should NEVER be encouraged in the liturgy. Family, friends, go for it.

 

[netmilsmom]

HagiaSophia:

Didn’t Jimmy Akins write once that the Vatican Document Notitiae (Not 11 (1975) 226) state the practice of holding hands during the Our Father should be “repudiated”???or has memory betrayed me again???

The question was whether holding hands should replace the handshake of peace. To which the Notitiae response was that it should be repudiated.
The Vatican has never stated that Hand holding is not allowed. I DO think they should clarify this. However, God knows better than I.

 

[Confiteor]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Well God Bless him!
I’ve been saying this forever. If I am uncomfortale with holding the hands of strangers, I am called unchristian.
But we must consider the comfort level of others. This should NEVER be encouraged in the liturgy. Family, friends, go for it.

Uhm, this particular statement may have some merit to it (namely, the part about not holding hands), but I was under the impression that the sign of peace AMONG THE PEOPLE IS optional and many orthodox priests do move on to the Agnus Dei without inviting people to share the sign of peace. Don’t EWTN priests sometimes do this too?

Also,the mention of Archbishop Weakland reminded me of how much scandal he brought on the Church when it was revealed he had a long term homosexual affair with another man whom he paid off with diocesan fund according to accounts at the time. He was one of the highest level Church officials implicated in the 2002 sex scandal. While he may have valid liturgical practices, I think we should seek a more authoritative source (and a more moral one).

 

[Lapsed]

thistle:

Your faith must be pretty weak if something as trivial as holding hands is keeping you away from church, and your statement that this is the reason for falling attendences is simply ludicrous!!

Have you noticed my screen name? Yes, my faith is very weak at this point, as you have so charitably pointed out. I was away from the Church for 20 years, go to a Mass and have to go through what I described above.

“Welcome back to the Church. Here, have an enormous helping of peer pressure and an insult or two.”

It’s keeping me out of the Church, and I’m certain I’m not the only one. I never stated that hand holding is THE reason for falling attendence, but it is a contributing factor. It likely isn’t a major one, but it is a roadblock for some.

I’m just so thrilled to return to a Church where I’m weak and ludicrous. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[netmilsmom]

Confiteor:

Also,the mention of Archbishop Weakland reminded me of how much scandal he brought on the Church when it was revealed he had a long term homosexual affair with another man whom he paid off with diocesan fund according to accounts at the time. He was one of the highest level Church officials implicated in the 2002 sex scandal. While he may have valid liturgical practices, I think we should seek a more authoritative source (and a more moral one).

Well, perhaps his grace is to be right about the liturgy and the fight with the demon of homosexuality is his cross to bear.

 

[netmilsmom]

thistle:

Your faith must be pretty weak if something as trivial as holding hands is keeping you away from church, and your statement that this is the reason for falling attendences is simply ludicrous!!

Way to go! How Christian of you to totally disregard this persons feelings and question his faith.

Some people don’t even realize how crass their words can be.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Confiteor:

Also,the mention of Archbishop Weakland reminded me of how much scandal he brought on the Church when it was revealed he had a long term homosexual affair with another man whom he paid off with diocesan fund according to accounts at the time. He was one of the highest level Church officials implicated in the 2002 sex scandal. While he may have valid liturgical practices, I think we should seek a more authoritative source (and a more moral one).

Whatever his sins, since they were so publicly aired, they have nothing to do with his knowledge of liturgy and his comments to his priests in his letter; unless there is some link between the two that you are aware of, it would have been a kindness not to introduce his failings rather than comment on his liturgy observations.

FYI, I use Weakland’s statement because as he was the “point man” for the most progressive faction of hierarchy in the Church in many ways, and one of the few bishops to irritate JPII publicly, his comments in his article Liturgy & Common Ground of Feb 1999 might surprise more than a few.

And as an aside, if we are going to limit quotes and posts to only the “morally acceptable” there are going to be many blank pages, as I am an acknowledged sinner along with many others here. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Lapsed:

I’m just so thrilled to return to a Church where I’m weak and ludicrous. Thanks for the encouragement.

Friend, Let it go – the OP may not have made the connection between the “name” and the state… we all wonder, we all have to work it through,

“Judgement is whispering into the ear of a merciful and compassionate God the story of my life which I had never been able to tell,” (Cardinal Basil Hume)

From JPII: In “Veritatis Splendor” the Pope stated:
“A clear and forceful presentation of moral truth can never be separated from a profound and heartfelt respect, born of that patient and trusting love which man always needs along his moral journey, a journey frequently wearisome on account of difficulties, weaknesses and painful situations.The Church can never renounce ‘the principle of truth and consistency whereby she does not agree to call good evil and evil good’, she must always be careful not to break the bruised reed or to quench the dimly burning wick”. [Veritatis Splendor No. 95]

God bless you on your journey and for your candor.