The Our Father.....repetitive prayer or supposed to be a one time?

[MartinJordan]

I heard many non-Catholics tell me that repetitive prayer is wrong. Now, if Jesus taught us how to pray the “Our Father” and for all intents and purposes it was Jesus HIMSELF instructing the faithful to do so with those exact words (certainly not exactly from our own heart but clearly taught by Jesus), how can repetitive prayer be wrong?

MJ

 

[aspirant]

I heard many non-Catholics tell me that repetitive prayer is wrong.

Jesus himself engaged in repetitive prayer:

Mark:

And they went to a place called Gethsemane. And he said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. And he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death. Remain here and watch.” And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” And he came and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter, “Simon, are you asleep? Could you not watch one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy, and they did not know what to answer him. And he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.”

Heavenly adoration is also described as including repetitive prayer:
Revelation to John:

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

If God has a problem with repetitive prayer, he sure has a funny way of showing it. I mean, how many times does Psalm 136 repeat “his steadfast love endures forever”?

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus himself engaged in repetitive prayer:

Heavenly adoration is also described as including repetitive prayer:

If God has a problem with repetitive prayer, he sure has a funny way of showing it. I mean, how many times does Psalm 136 repeat “his steadfast love endures forever”?

Exactly

It stands to mention then how the claim came to be?

MJ

 

[Daizies]

If I remember rightly it comes from a misunderstanding of Matthew 6:7 “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking”. (KJV emphasis added)

But when you look at the Douay-Rheims translation: “And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.”

I was taught the "vain repetition " thing about the Hail Mary and other rote prayers when I was a kid, and how that was bad. But if you pay attention to many “extemporaneous” prayers in some Protestant churches, they seem to follow a set formula - at least it seemed that way to me when I was one

 

[BA11]

The bible condemns “babbling” and “vain” repititions. If you’re just saying a bunch of words over and over to God without any thought or any heartfelt intent it doesnt mean anything. I don’t think there’s any problem with repeating a set prayer if it’s a genuine prayer.

 

[rossum]

If I remember rightly it comes from a misunderstanding of Matthew 6:7 “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking”. (KJV emphasis added)

In this context the word “vain” means “useless”. It is the usage in the phrase, “all in vain”, meaning “all useless”.

The meaning of some English words has altered since the KJV was translated.

Matthew is condemning “useless repetitions”. It those Protestants think that prayer to God is useless, then that is their problem.

rossum

 

[Immacolata]

The bible condemns “babbling” and “vain” repititions. If you’re just saying a bunch of words over and over to God without any thought or any heartfelt intent it doesnt mean anything. I don’t think there’s any problem with repeating a set prayer if it’s a genuine prayer.

This is my understanding of “vain repetitions.” In the context in Scripture, I believe it was said in regards to pagans, who rattled off the names of “deities” in the hope that one would feel obliged to “answer” their prayer. However, I may be incorrect on this (I have not read that passage in some time) and someone is free to correct me.

If you are praying the Our Father, the Hail Mary, and the Glory Be with heartfelt intent of praising God with your prayers, they are not vain repetitions.

 

[Sam_777]

The bible condemns “babbling” and “vain” repititions. If you’re just saying a bunch of words over and over to God without any thought or any heartfelt intent it doesnt mean anything. I don’t think there’s any problem with repeating a set prayer if it’s a genuine prayer.

 

[JRKH]

I heard many non-Catholics tell me that repetitive prayer is wrong. Now, if Jesus taught us how to pray the “Our Father” and for all intents and purposes it was Jesus HIMSELF instructing the faithful to do so with those exact words (certainly not exactly from our own heart but clearly taught by Jesus), how can repetitive prayer be wrong?

MJ

Great Answers already…

The non-Catholic objection to repetitious prayer is often pointed at something like the rosary and in such a case one can understand where the repetition would seem very strange to a non-Catholic.

Part of the problem is that in looking at the “vain repetition” quote, they place the emphasis on “repetition” as being the problem whereas we see “vain” as being the problem. So then one must look at what constitutes “vain” or useless prayer.

Prayers reeled off without thought or concentration would certainly qualify but those used as a means of calming and of reflection and for bringing us more fully into God’s presence are certainly not “vain” so do not qualify.
So - when you hear this objection - call their attention to the qualifier “vain” in relation to “repetition”…

As to “The Lord’s Prayer” itself, I have heard it said that It was not intended to be a “rote” prayer prayed exactly as written but rather that it is intended as a model of how to pray…what things should be included in our prayers…but that our personal prayers should be extemporaneous. I find this line of reasoning to be quite attractive actually.

The Lord’s prayer is, in my estimation, BOTH. It is a prayer that we can use verbatim, AND as a model or template on which to build our overall prayer life.
As an exercise, I will occasionally seek to mentally recite the Lord’s Prayer using synonyms and my own phrasing. This exercise can draw out deeper meanings from the text. It can help us to better understand what Jesus was wanting to convey through that prayer. I highly recommend the exercise to everyone.

Peace
James

 

[Usige]

If I remember rightly it comes from a misunderstanding of Matthew 6:7 “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking”. (KJV emphasis added)

But when you look at the Douay-Rheims translation: “And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.”

I was taught the "vain repetition " thing about the Hail Mary and other rote prayers when I was a kid, and how that was bad. But if you pay attention to many “extemporaneous” prayers in some Protestant churches, they seem to follow a set formula - at least it seemed that way to me when I was one

When we were looking at that verse in RCIA several years back we were told that it meant to avoid praying like a magic invocation. In other words it wasn’t repetitive pray the Matthew condemned, but rather thinking that the words themselves were the agent for any effects rather than God who answered prayers.

 

[NeedImprovement]

For myself personally, it is a matter of concern when the prayer becomes [ rote (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rote) .

Anyone who prays the Rosary knows what a struggle it can be from time to time for us to keep our words from becoming rote . Yet the devotion of the Rosary has a built-in advantage because we are also meditating on a particular Mystery of Our Blessed Lord’s personal involvement in effecting our salvation :

• If we have some trouble concentrating on the words, we may simply focus on meditation of the mystery ; then the prayer is still fine - not so different from how a melody stands a little more in the forefront of a musical composition than the accompaniment does.
• Another way for us to deal with the verbal part of our Rosary becoming rote and/or to deal with distractions, is to pause a moment , acknowledge the distraction or lack of attention, and offer it to Our Blessed Mother , then continue. We should expect once in a while to have a few more distractions after offering those first ones - our efforts to honour God’s love for us in commemoratiion of and in union with His and our Mother , are pleasing to Him. ( The Judge takes *degree of difficulty *into consideration.)

. . . can’t recall where I read it several years back , but I believe it was actually a bishop who someone had been trying to tell that the Hail Mary was just empty repetition, who said in reply : “What mother ever becomes tired of hearing her child tell her ,‘I love you’ ?”

Might we then reason that since, as aspirant confirms

. . .
If God has a problem with repetitive prayer, he sure has a funny way of showing it.

. . . then Our Heavenly Father could never become tired of us calling Him “Father” .He knows better than we do how much we are in constant need of His Love and Mercy.

When we come right down to it, all prayer is repetitive - it’s only a question of the frequency with which it is repeated.

If I’d found myself in the OP’s situation where

MartinJordan:

many non-Catholics tell me that repetitive prayer is wrong.

, I probably would have asked those people how often they pray the Lord’s prayer . If they can’t even admit to praying it once a day ("Give us this day our daily bread. . . " ) then I suppose I would have to be all the more repetetive in my prayers for them personally.

But in the event that they, like most Christians could admit to praying the Lord’s prayer at least once a day, I would proceed to ask if it would be okay for me to pray it again during the day if I felt some temptation coming on - emphasizing how I would emphasize the “deliver us from evil” since the “lead us not into temptation” I prayed earlier , didn’t seem to have worked - either that, or I had just led myself into temptation.

And we should probably counsel any child sent to their room without dinner as a punishment to avoid praying the Our Father too : The “forgive us our trespasses” would work out all right for them, but they might end up believing God didn’t hear them when they prayed "give us this day our daily bread".


Indeed , as aspirant says

. . .
If God has a problem with repetitive prayer, he sure has a funny way of showing it.

. . . a little more proof from the 18th chapter of the Gospel according to Luke :

**There was a judge in a certain town who neither feared God nor respected any human being. And a widow in that town used to come to him and say, ‘Render a just decision for me against my adversary.’

For a long time the judge was unwilling, but eventually he thought, ‘While it is true that I neither fear God nor respect any human being, because this widow keeps bothering me I shall deliver a just decision for her lest she finally come and strike me.’" The Lord said, "Pay attention to what the dishonest judge says.

Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them?"**

 

[Isaiah45_9]

For myself personally, it is a matter of concern when the prayer becomes rote .

First of all: Thank you for the dictionary reference!!! I needed it

Anyone who prays the Rosary knows what a struggle it can be from time to time for us to keep our words from becoming rote . Yet the devotion of the Rosary has a built-in advantage because we are also meditating on a particular Mystery of Our Blessed Lord’s personal involvement in effecting our salvation :

I found that it helps when you do the Rosary with 2 or more people. Not only are we agreeing on prayer but it helps to concentrate by listening to others say the prayer as well.

Also, when doing the Rosary, I stop mid-decade when I find myself drifting off and I meditate on the Graces of God and remember the times He has been there for me in times of need and in times of happiness. It brings me right back into meditating on the Words.

Peace,

Jose

 

[NeedImprovement]

First of all: Thank you for the dictionary reference!!! I needed it

I found that it helps when you do the Rosary with 2 or more people. Not only are we agreeing on prayer but it helps to concentrate by listening to others say the prayer as well.

Also, when doing the Rosary, I stop mid-decade when I find myself drifting off and I meditate on the Graces of God and remember the times He has been there for me in times of need and in times of happiness. It brings me right back into meditating on the Words.

Peace,

Jose

Rote was the word my dad used some years ago, in explaining to me several of the Rosary difficulties I had been encountering (and still encounter today) - glad if it can be of help to others too.

As you say, it is better (easier at least) when we can pray the Rosary with others - We are definitely stronger as a group. And I’ve also experienced myself listening intently to another leading a prayer of the Rosary while I was saying the response somewhat less intently. I also find it a personal consolation that at the same moment I might be distracted, someone else who is praying with me may not be.

---

• Just a note on that quote from the 18th Chapter of the Gospel according to Luke guys :

It isn’t always interpreted where the judge thought the widow was going to hit him - I’ve also seen it written that the judge was afraid she would *wear him out * ( as opposed to *punch him out * , ). . .

That particular quote in my previous post was taken from the NAB at the vatican website at this link :
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PX1.HTM

which would be consistent with what my own edition of the same NAB (St. Joseph’s Edition, July 1970, Catholic Book Publishing Co., NY) says :

or she will end by doing me violence

The Jerusalem Bible provided by Catholic Online also renders the passage

or she will come and slap me in the face." ’

Yet the Douay Rheims bible renders the passage

because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she* weary *me

It might be nice to have someone with a working knowledge of scriptural Latin to weigh in here and explain to us what the general connotation of

vidua vindicabo illam ne in novissimo veniens suggillet me

could mean.

To date, according to the only online resource I’ve found which provides any translation at all , it seems the word “suggillet” is a verb derived from *suggillo, suggillare, suggillavi, suggillatus * , which the resource renders as : insult , humiliate

archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wordz.pl?keyword=suggillet

 

[SteveVH]

Great Answers already…

The non-Catholic objection to repetitious prayer is often pointed at something like the rosary and in such a case one can understand where the repetition would seem very strange to a non-Catholic.

Part of the problem is that in looking at the “vain repetition” quote, they place the emphasis on “repetition” as being the problem whereas we see “vain” as being the problem. So then one must look at what constitutes “vain” or useless prayer.

Prayers reeled off without thought or concentration would certainly qualify but those used as a means of calming and of reflection and for bringing us more fully into God’s presence are certainly not “vain” so do not qualify.
So - when you hear this objection - call their attention to the qualifier “vain” in relation to “repetition”…

As to “The Lord’s Prayer” itself, I have heard it said that It was not intended to be a “rote” prayer prayed exactly as written but rather that it is intended as a model of how to pray…what things should be included in our prayers…but that our personal prayers should be extemporaneous. I find this line of reasoning to be quite attractive actually.

The Lord’s prayer is, in my estimation, BOTH. It is a prayer that we can use verbatim, AND as a model or template on which to build our overall prayer life.
As an exercise, I will occasionally seek to mentally recite the Lord’s Prayer using synonyms and my own phrasing. This exercise can draw out deeper meanings from the text. It can help us to better understand what Jesus was wanting to convey through that prayer. I highly recommend the exercise to everyone.

Peace
James

It is a great exercise, one with which St. Francis would agree. Below is his paraphrase of the Our Father:

*"Our Father: Most Holy, our Creator and Redeemer, our Savior and our Comforter.
Who art in Heaven: in the angels and the saints. Who gives them light so that they may have knowledge, because Thou, Lord, are Light. Who inflames them so that they may love, because Thou, Lord, are Love. Who lives continually in them and who fills them so that they may be happy, because Thou, Lord, are the Supreme Good, the Eternal Good, and it is from Thee that all good comes, and without Thee there is no good.

Hallowed be Thy Name: May our knowledge of Thee become ever clearer, so that we may realize the extent of Thy benefits, the steadfastness of Thy promises, the sublimity of Thy Majesty and the depth of Thy judgments.

Thy Kingdom come: so that Thou may reign in us by Thy grace and bring us to Thy Kingdom, where we shall see Thee clearly, love Thee perfectly, be blessed in Thy company and enjoy Thee forever.

Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven: so that we may love Thee with our whole heart by always thinking of Thee; with our whole mind by directing our whole intention towards Thee and seeking Thy glory in everything; and with all our strength by spending all our powers and affections of soul and body in the service of Thy Love alone. And may we love our neighbors as ourselves, encouraging them all to love Thee as best we can, rejoicing as the good fortune of others, just as it were our own, and sympathizing with their misfortunes, while giving offense to no one.

Give us this day our daily bread: Thy own beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to remind us of the love He showed for us and to help us understand and appreciate it and everything that he did or said or suffered.

And forgive us our trespasses: in Thy infinite Mercy, and by the power of the Passion of Thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, together with the merits and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all your saints.

As we forgive those who trespass against us: and if we do not forgive perfectly, Lord, make us forgive perfectly, so that we may indeed love our enemies for love of Thee, and pray fervently to Thee for them, returning no one evil for evil, anxious only to serve everybody in Thee.

And lead us not into temptation: hidden or obvious, sudden or unforeseen. But deliver us from evil: Present, past, or to come. Amen."*

Peace.

 

[Daizies]

For myself personally, it is a matter of concern when the prayer becomes rote .

Okay, well I didn’t mean it that way when I used the word rote It was the only word I could think of to say “Prayers that you know by heart and say a lot of times”

 

[MartinJordan]

It is a great exercise, one with which St. Francis would agree. Below is his paraphrase of the Our Father:

*"Our Father: Most Holy, our Creator and Redeemer, our Savior and our Comforter.
Who art in Heaven: in the angels and the saints. Who gives them light so that they may have knowledge, because Thou, Lord, are Light. Who inflames them so that they may love, because Thou, Lord, are Love. Who lives continually in them and who fills them so that they may be happy, because Thou, Lord, are the Supreme Good, the Eternal Good, and it is from Thee that all good comes, and without Thee there is no good.

Hallowed be Thy Name: May our knowledge of Thee become ever clearer, so that we may realize the extent of Thy benefits, the steadfastness of Thy promises, the sublimity of Thy Majesty and the depth of Thy judgments.

Thy Kingdom come: so that Thou may reign in us by Thy grace and bring us to Thy Kingdom, where we shall see Thee clearly, love Thee perfectly, be blessed in Thy company and enjoy Thee forever.

Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven: so that we may love Thee with our whole heart by always thinking of Thee; with our whole mind by directing our whole intention towards Thee and seeking Thy glory in everything; and with all our strength by spending all our powers and affections of soul and body in the service of Thy Love alone. And may we love our neighbors as ourselves, encouraging them all to love Thee as best we can, rejoicing as the good fortune of others, just as it were our own, and sympathizing with their misfortunes, while giving offense to no one.

Give us this day our daily bread: Thy own beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to remind us of the love He showed for us and to help us understand and appreciate it and everything that he did or said or suffered.

And forgive us our trespasses: in Thy infinite Mercy, and by the power of the Passion of Thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, together with the merits and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all your saints.

As we forgive those who trespass against us: and if we do not forgive perfectly, Lord, make us forgive perfectly, so that we may indeed love our enemies for love of Thee, and pray fervently to Thee for them, returning no one evil for evil, anxious only to serve everybody in Thee.

And lead us not into temptation: hidden or obvious, sudden or unforeseen. But deliver us from evil: Present, past, or to come. Amen."*

Peace.

Just beautiful! This surely has given me some food for thought.

MJ

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It is a great exercise, one with which St. Francis would agree. Below is his paraphrase of the Our Father:

*"Our Father: Most Holy, our Creator and Redeemer, our Savior and our Comforter.
Who art in Heaven: in the angels and the saints. Who gives them light so that they may have knowledge, because Thou, Lord, are Light. Who inflames them so that they may love, because Thou, Lord, are Love. Who lives continually in them and who fills them so that they may be happy, because Thou, Lord, are the Supreme Good, the Eternal Good, and it is from Thee that all good comes, and without Thee there is no good.

Hallowed be Thy Name: May our knowledge of Thee become ever clearer, so that we may realize the extent of Thy benefits, the steadfastness of Thy promises, the sublimity of Thy Majesty and the depth of Thy judgments.

Thy Kingdom come: so that Thou may reign in us by Thy grace and bring us to Thy Kingdom, where we shall see Thee clearly, love Thee perfectly, be blessed in Thy company and enjoy Thee forever.

Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven: so that we may love Thee with our whole heart by always thinking of Thee; with our whole mind by directing our whole intention towards Thee and seeking Thy glory in everything; and with all our strength by spending all our powers and affections of soul and body in the service of Thy Love alone. And may we love our neighbors as ourselves, encouraging them all to love Thee as best we can, rejoicing as the good fortune of others, just as it were our own, and sympathizing with their misfortunes, while giving offense to no one.

Give us this day our daily bread: Thy own beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, to remind us of the love He showed for us and to help us understand and appreciate it and everything that he did or said or suffered.

And forgive us our trespasses: in Thy infinite Mercy, and by the power of the Passion of Thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, together with the merits and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all your saints.

As we forgive those who trespass against us: and if we do not forgive perfectly, Lord, make us forgive perfectly, so that we may indeed love our enemies for love of Thee, and pray fervently to Thee for them, returning no one evil for evil, anxious only to serve everybody in Thee.

And lead us not into temptation: hidden or obvious, sudden or unforeseen. But deliver us from evil: Present, past, or to come. Amen."*

Peace.

Thanks for sharing this Steve!

 

[NeedImprovement]

Okay, well I didn’t mean it that way when I used the word rote It was the only word I could think of to say “Prayers that you know by heart and say a lot of times”

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/Helmsmann/Oops.jpg Sorry Daizies :

I hadn’t picked up on it then that anyone else (two people) had used the word earlier in the thread - was pressed for time this morning before my first post - so mostly I quickly went through the other posts only to make sure what I was going to quote from Scripture hadn’t been posted earlier . . . and I wasn’t even trying to correct anyone ; although I now see the way *rote *had been used on this thread beforehand doesn’t appear congruous to its definition. I’ve also heard people every once in a while refer to prayers we repeat as “rote” prayers.

But the proper definition of rote almost always implies something rather mindless, which if referring to prayer,subsequently portrays prayer in an unfavourable light . And I didn’t really have the luxury of being able to use a definition which was less than accurate after my dad explained it to me this way : “The problem is when the prayer becomes rote.”

 

[Daizies]

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/Helmsmann/Oops.jpg Sorry Daizies :

I hadn’t picked up on it then that anyone else (two people) had used the word earlier in the thread - was pressed for time this morning before my first post - so mostly I quickly went through the other posts only to make sure what I was going to quote from Scripture hadn’t been posted earlier . . . and I wasn’t even trying to correct anyone ; although I now see the way *rote *had been used on this thread beforehand doesn’t appear congruous to its definition. I’ve also heard people every once in a while refer to prayers we repeat as “rote” prayers.

But the proper definition of rote almost always implies something rather mindless, which if referring to prayer,subsequently portrays prayer in an unfavourable light . And I didn’t really have the luxury of being able to use a definition which was less than accurate after my dad explained it to me this way : “The problem is when the prayer becomes rote.”

Actually, I’m thankful for the correction - I don’t like misusing words.

 

[mark_a]

But if you pay attention to many “extemporaneous” prayers in some Protestant churches, they seem to follow a set formula - at least it seemed that way to me when I was one

“Father, we thank you for this day. . . . .”