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Phage0070
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Ahh, so it isn’t the 2nd premise per se, it is that God isn’t subject to the same standard of morality as humans. In that case you are really saying God isn’t ethical (by the common use of the word).
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davidv
Guest
Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth?Ahh, so it isn’t the 2nd premise per se, it is that God isn’t subject to the same standard of morality as humans. In that case you are really saying God isn’t ethical (by the common use of the word).
God is the source of morality. He is objectively moral. Any understanding you have that indicates otherwise is due to a flaw in you understanding or reasoning.
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Phage0070
Guest
The purpose of posting here is to incite discussion. Success!It doesn’t have to be numerical, but you need some criteria to declare success.
Which is an entirely different meaning than its usage in any other context.Self definition.
Then you would agree that by human standards God is unethical, but further argue that human standards of morality don’t apply. I can understand that position, but few theists would support such a distinction. Their view of God most often has him being moral based on the same standard as humans are held.My point is that God is further above man than man is above the flies. The ethics of one can not be applied to the other.
Explaining the faith to others is evangelism. Defending the faith through the systematic use of reason is apologetics.Apologetics is explaining the faith to others.
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Phage0070
Guest
In what sense exactly? You say that humans are held to one moral code and God adheres to another, and yet you use the term “moral” as though it was a meaningful comparison between the two standards.God is the source of morality. He is objectively moral.
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paul_c
Guest
To what end?The purpose of posting here is to incite discussion. Success!
You twist every statement to say what you want it to say. Doing that will not help anyone in understanding. Everything God does is ethical. His is the “gold” standard. If you think he’s unethical its because your own perception of ethics is flawed.Then you would agree that by human standards God is unethical, but further argue that human standards of morality don’t apply. I can understand that position, but few theists would support such a distinction. Their view of God most often has him being moral based on the same standard as humans are held.
I don’t understand the distinction between explainign the faith and defending the faith through reason. In any case, you are looking for neither. What do you really want. You haven’t saidExplaining the faith to others is evangelism. Defending the faith through the systematic use of reason is apologetics.
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davidv
Guest
Since you are on a Catholic forum, I strongly suggest that you use the meanings of terms the way the Church defines them.In what sense exactly?
CCC said:1950 The moral law is the work of divine Wisdom. Its biblical meaning can be defined as fatherly instruction, God’s pedagogy. It prescribes for man the ways, the rules of conduct that lead to the promised beatitude; it proscribes the ways of evil which turn him away from God and his love. It is at once firm in its precepts and, in its promises, worthy of love.
Please consider reading what follows here.
I didn’t say that, why do you think i did?You say that humans are held to one moral code and God adheres to another, and yet you use the term “moral” as though it was a meaningful comparison between the two standards.
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Phage0070
Guest
The uncovering of new ideas and perspectives. Why do you participate in these discussions, is it simply an opportunity to browbeat and indoctrinate?To what end?
So anything God does is ethical for a human to do as well?Everything God does is ethical. His is the “gold” standard.
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davidv
Guest
Do you think so?The uncovering of new ideas and perspectives. Why do you participate in these discussions, is it simply an opportunity to browbeat and indoctrinate?
So anything God does is ethical for a human to do as well?
Why?
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Phage0070
Guest
I wasn’t aware that the Catholic church defined God as following a separate moral code than humans.Since you are on a Catholic forum, I strongly suggest that you use the meanings of terms the way the Church defines them.
You seem to be saying that humans are ethically required to prevent evil actions when they are able, but God is not subject to that ethical imperative. Do you agree so far?I didn’t say that, why do you think i did?
Assuming the previous, God adheres to a separate moral code than humans. In most cases when we talk about something being “ethical” we are referring to the human context, so if we are going to jump between moral codes when referring to God we need to define the transfer explicitly. Otherwise when identifying an action as ethically required, and God as being ethical, there will be confusion when God doesn’t consider it to be required.
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davidv
Guest
Based on this response you must not have read the material at the link I provided. Until you do, you cannot begin to understand our responses.I wasn’t aware that the Catholic church defined God as following a separate moral code than humans.
You seem to be saying that humans are ethically required to prevent evil actions when they are able, but God is not subject to that ethical imperative. Do you agree so far?
Assuming the previous, God adheres to a separate moral code than humans. In most cases when we talk about something being “ethical” we are referring to the human context, so if we are going to jump between moral codes when referring to God we need to define the transfer explicitly. Otherwise when identifying an action as ethically required, and God as being ethical, there will be confusion when God doesn’t consider it to be required.
If you continue to insist on twisting what we say you won’t be doing any “uncovering of new ideas and perspectives”.
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Phage0070
Guest
I don’t know. The terminology used about God being ethical and good seems to indicate that that is the case, but God doesn’t seem to behave like ethics would demand a human.Do you think so?
Why?
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Phage0070
Guest
Most people don’t require 3000+ words of religious dogma and the associated study to understand the nuances involved (and I am sure there are nuances and interpretations galore) in order to convey their meaning. Perhaps a simple yes or no question will be easier for you to communicate effectively.Based on this response you must not have read the material at the link I provided. Until you do, you cannot begin to understand our responses.
Does God follow the same standard of ethics which apply to humans? (Answer Key: Yes, No, I don’t know)
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paul_c
Guest
How could it? Ethics are rules that apply to actions in specific situations. God and Man are never in the same situation.Most people don’t require 3000+ words of religious dogma and the associated study to understand the nuances involved (and I am sure there are nuances and interpretations galore) in order to convey their meaning. Perhaps a simple yes or no question will be easier for you to communicate effectively.
Does God follow the same standard of ethics which apply to humans? (Answer Key: Yes, No, I don’t know)
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paul_c
Guest
Phage,
Are you here to try to make Catholics question their faith or their understanding of God. If so, I wonder why you would want to do that? and why you think you would gain any traction on a Catholic web site.
On the other hand, if you are personally struggling with the question of the nature of God, we can help you with that, but there are better ways than the path you have this thread on to accomplish that.
Give us some guidance on what you are really looking to do so we can either really help, or disengage…
And by the way, we are here to answer questions that people have about the Catholic faith. Remember, you came to us, not the other way around.
Are you here to try to make Catholics question their faith or their understanding of God. If so, I wonder why you would want to do that? and why you think you would gain any traction on a Catholic web site.
On the other hand, if you are personally struggling with the question of the nature of God, we can help you with that, but there are better ways than the path you have this thread on to accomplish that.
Give us some guidance on what you are really looking to do so we can either really help, or disengage…
And by the way, we are here to answer questions that people have about the Catholic faith. Remember, you came to us, not the other way around.
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MtGargano
Guest
St. Paul on just how wise we really are…not
1st Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians Ch 1 v 17-30
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void. [18] For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God. [19] For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the prudence of the prudent I will reject. [20] Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[21] For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world, by wisdom, knew not God, it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe. [22] For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: [23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: [24] But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. [25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[26] For see your vocation, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble: [27] But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the wise; and the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong. [28] And the base things of the world, and the things that are contemptible, hath God chosen, and things that are not, that he might bring to nought things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his sight. [30] But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption:
Does God follow the same standard of ethics which apply to humans? (Answer Key: Yes, No, I don’t know)
God permitted the greatest evil in history, the crucifiction of His own Son, to bring about the greatest good in history, mans reconciliation with Himself. it took God to be sacrificed to God to get this done, no human was, is, or will ever be worthy or pure enough to pay that sacrifice… so I answer Yes, God follows the same standard of ethics which apply to humans…God applied that standard to us Himself, and unlike
Him, we struggle to keep it.
peace
1st Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians Ch 1 v 17-30
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void. [18] For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God. [19] For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the prudence of the prudent I will reject. [20] Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[21] For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world, by wisdom, knew not God, it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe. [22] For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: [23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: [24] But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. [25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[26] For see your vocation, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble: [27] But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the wise; and the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong. [28] And the base things of the world, and the things that are contemptible, hath God chosen, and things that are not, that he might bring to nought things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his sight. [30] But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption:
Does God follow the same standard of ethics which apply to humans? (Answer Key: Yes, No, I don’t know)
God permitted the greatest evil in history, the crucifiction of His own Son, to bring about the greatest good in history, mans reconciliation with Himself. it took God to be sacrificed to God to get this done, no human was, is, or will ever be worthy or pure enough to pay that sacrifice… so I answer Yes, God follows the same standard of ethics which apply to humans…God applied that standard to us Himself, and unlike
Him, we struggle to keep it.
peace
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