The Pagan Christ - Origins of the Biblical Jesus

[FightingFat]

Hi everyone, I’ve been approached by someone who has read this book by an ex-Anglican Priest.
The book is based around the ‘truth’ of Christianity that there was never a historical Jesus, and that the Bible is wholely an allagorical reference based on Pagan and Egyptian myths and legend to guide people through their lives.

Some of the most pressing points that he gives include the lack of historical evidence (outside of the Bible) to support to claim of Jesus as a historical figure. This is also pointed out for the biblical claim for the historical existence of King Solomon and his reportly great empire.

He also, apparently, shows an overwhelming number of examples where Christian text can be clearly seen as nearly exact plagerism of ancient Egyptian hyrogryphs depicting the myths of Osiris/Horus (being the god of rebirth). He goes on to explain how Isis is the equivilant of the Virgin Marry (Isis was the original diety to birth a Messiah as a virgin btw), and that Ra is the equivilant to “God”, the father of Jesus/Osiris/Horus.

He goes on to mention a vast number of other similar allegorical refernces that predate Christianity, some by thousands of years, and the fact that in Paul’s Gospel (the first recorded gosple) there is no mention of Jesus the Christ as a person of flesh and blood, but rather as a figure within each person, an allegorical being much like the the hero figures of other ancient myths (i.e. Osiris, Hercules, Promethius, and several others that I cannot remeber at hte moment).

Miracles that were reportedly done my Jesus are also linked to other sources, and an interesting connection between the raising of Lazurus from the dead is made. He claims that these miracles are wholely allegorical and shows a strong allegorical tie between how “El-Asur” (Hebrew meaning The Lord [inside us]) eventually became “Lazurus” as with Bible was translated into Latin. (the “e” was gradually dropped and the masculine “us” suffix was added) This name change is also seen in how Yeshua (there was no “j” sound in liguistic history, and earlier than 400 years prior to the writing of the Bible), as “ua” is in Latin a femine name suffix, it was changed to “us” (because having a female messiah just isn’t possible! http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ), and the ‘Y’ was changed to the more Latin sounding “j”… thus Jesus.
Moreover, it is shown of many religious festivals and holidays are, or have to set around the solitices and and equinoxes that were reviered by other religious. As well how many holydates were chosen on the grounds of political agenda. For example, the Christian Sabbath was decidedly chosen to be Sunday, instead of Saturday like the Jewish Sabbath, in order to more easily assimilate Paganism into Christian as there day of Sunworship was on… you guessed it, SUNday. Christmas is also set around a pagan holyday of fertilite… and many of the ‘christmass symbols’ are also derrived from pagan ritual (mistletoe for example).
I want to think out my answers and give a firm, credible refutation of this books assertions. I wondered if anyone could help? Has anyone read the book? Does anyone know a good way of approaching this sorts of accusations?

Many thanks in anticipation of your assistance

Mark.

 

[Anonymous_1]

why in the world would the early Martyrs like Ss. Peter, Stephen, Paul, James, Polycarp, etc be willing to suffer the ungodly things they endured for the sake of a man that never existed. I know of no notable historians that would condone such a proposal. I know there are plenty, even in the secular realm who would contend such a strange idea.

It is non sensical, it just shows that people are bcomming further and further disconnected from reality to rationalize and justify their disbelief…it is unfortunate, lets pray for them…

 

[marvin]

Hey FF,

Here’s a good link that should help:

bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

 

[Della]

This Harpur guy isn’t the first one to come up with these ridiculous claims (everything old is new again with anti-Catholic attacks), so his book is hardly “groundbreaking,” or anything close to it. Here’s an article from This Rock online: Did the Catholic Church Have It’s Origins in Paganism? you will find helpful.

 

[Anonymous_1]

Christianity is unique. Man is not forced to speculate about the nature of God because God has revealed Himself to man in a way that only He could, mainly in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Word Incarnate, the visible Image of the invisible God.

If by Paul Gospel you mean his Epistles of Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians and Galatians. And in response to the calism that Jesus was not a physical person sounds strikingly similar to an ancient heresy called Docetism. I do not wisht os cour through these Epistles but 1 John which is just as Authoritative as Canon as is “Paul gospel” says this in defense of truth against the heresies of Gnoscticism and Docetism."

1 John:1-3
What was from the beginning
what we have heard,
what we have seen with our eyes,
what we looked upon
and touched with our hands
concerns the Word of life-
for the life was made visible;
we have seen it and testify to it
and proclaim to you the eternal life
that was witht he Father and was made visible to us-
what we have seen and heard
we proclaim now to you

Basically if Jesus never Incarnated, then He could not have been nailed to the cross, therefore the redemptive act never took place this idea is Heresy and certainly nothign new.

also the pagan holidays and its symbols were baptized. Genius if you ask me. For example, the ever green tree originally being of pagan use was baptized, it came to represent eternal life. The easter egg originally “Egyptians and Persians used to dye eggs in spring colors and give them to friends as a symbol of renewed life long before Christ was born”(Source). Being baptized by Christians, it came to represent the ressurrection and new life.

hope some of this helps…

 

[whowantsumadebo]

FightingFat:

He goes on to mention a vast number of other similar allegorical refernces that predate Christianity, some by thousands of years, and the fact that in Paul’s Gospel (the first recorded gosple) there is no mention of Jesus the Christ as a person of flesh and blood, but rather as a figure within each person, an allegorical being much like the the hero figures of other ancient myths (i.e. Osiris, Hercules, Promethius, and several others that I cannot remeber at hte moment).

It’s a matter of horrificly uneducated scholarship on the part of that author to attempt to draw “parallels” between Jesus and pagan heroes when they simply aren’t there. For example, the author will force Christian language upon the pagan characters, words such as “virgin birth”, “resurrection”, and “savior”, when they simply don’t mean the same thing.
I’m particularly disgusted with this recent upchuck of the notion that Paul did not believe in a historical Jesus. That’s just stupid; those people obviously never read the very first lines in Romans!

1:3 …the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the Spirit of Holiness by resurrection from the dead…

1 Corinthians 7:10, Paul qoutes Jesus from a saying also recorded in Mark!
To the married I give this command–not I but the Lord–that the wife should not separate from her husband…
Again in 9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get the living by the gospel.
And in 11:23-25 Paul’s tradition of the Last Supper.
Beyond question St.Paul believed in a historical Jesus.
We’ll leave the quotations at that.
Sensational writers such as the one you speak of use the most deceptive, backward, unshcolarly methods of obtaining information, take their information out of context, force whatever meaning they want into the information, and conveniently exclude any information which smashes their theses into peices.

 

[buffalo]

Here’s a good read:

The “Toledoths” of Genesis

 

[jimmy]

tektonics.org/TK-J.html

 

[Liberian]

Mark,

Here is a site with a bunch of essays on the supposed parallels between Christianity and paganism. I’ve not checked it out myself yet; I only found it yesterday.

tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

I hope it helps. I note that you have already received a reference to another part of this site.

• Liberian

 

[volzcpa]

Anonymous_1:

why in the world would the early Martyrs like Ss. Peter, Stephen, Paul, James, Polycarp, etc be willing to suffer the ungodly things they endured for the sake of a man that never existed. I know of no notable historians that would condone such a proposal. I know there are plenty, even in the secular realm who would contend such a strange idea.

It is non sensical, it just shows that people are bcomming further and further disconnected from reality to rationalize and justify their disbelief…it is unfortunate, lets pray for them…

To take this one step further. There are many historical documents that give the accounts of the many Christians who died as martyrs for their faith in Christ. In most instances, all the Christians had to do is renounce Christ and their belief in his teachings and their lives would have been spared. But not only did they not renounce Christ but they accepted death with open arms, even joy. Now many of these early Christian martyrs were alive at the time Christ lived and saw him themselves or at least believed the testimony of people they personally knew, who did see Christ, which would give them reason for their firm belief. If Christ were a myth, why would thousands of Christians rather die than renounce a myth? I think it would be hard to find more than a handful of people who would be willing to die for a myth.

 

[demetrios1973]

volzcpa:

If Christ were a myth, why would thousands of Christians rather die than renounce a myth? I think it would be hard to find more than a handful of people who would be willing to die for a myth.

People were dying for their religions long before Christianity, so this argument is not a good one.

There are plenty of suicide bombers these days who are happily going to their deaths in anticipation of “paradise”, and the belief that they are dying for the glory of their god.

 

[demetrios1973]

Anonymous_1:

Christianity is unique. Man is not forced to speculate about the nature of God because God has revealed Himself to man in a way that only He could, mainly in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Word Incarnate, the visible Image of the invisible God.

Unique? God becoming man is not as unique as some may think:

“Lo! I am come to this land of Thebes, Dionysus, the son of Zeus…I have put off the god and taken human shape, and so present myself at Dirce’s springs and the waters of Ismenus.”

“I must take up my mother’s defense, by showing to mortals that the child she bore to Zeus is a deity.”

• The Bacchantes (Euripides)

 

[Anonymous_1]

Unique? God becoming man is not as unique as some may think:

“Lo! I am come to this land of Thebes, Dionysus, the son of Zeus…I have put off the god and taken human shape, and so present myself at Dirce’s springs and the waters of Ismenus.”

“I must take up my mother’s defense, by showing to mortals that the child she bore to Zeus is a deity.”

• The Bacchantes (Euripides)

Greek mythology has no claim to truth. . Christianity does. It is not considered to be mythological but historical.

It is claimed that the man called Jesus of Nazareth who lived some 2000 years ago was the Son of God and the Christ. These claims are not empty either. It is written by witnesses that this Man did marvelous things, signs and wonders that attested and corroborated His claims, ultimatley by rising from the dead for even Death could not keep Him in its jaws. This is not presented as mythology but as historical truth, that which has happened in the realm of space and time which we live.

Christianity is unique…I stand firm in what I stated.

I do accept

People were dying for their religions long before Christianity, so this argument is not a good one.

I do believe it is a very good argument. I concede that many people may be willing to die for their religion, and they did so even before the birth of Christ. However I suggest that few would be willing to die for a man who they *know *never existed. The people we speak of Ss. Peter, Paul, Stephen, Polycarp, John, are supposed to have interacted with the Person Christ. To suggest that they would be willing to face severe persecution and willingly endure terrible deaths for this person whom is make believe is obsurd.
Furthermore, this man must have been extraordinary for people to be willing to endure such things. In fact he claimed to be the Son of God, the Christ, God Himself. For such a Person I can imagine people being willing to submit to such horrendous persecution. He couldn’t have just been extraordinary, as C.S. Lewis said He must have been either who He claimed to be, Lord, a terrible Liar or a Lunatic. I think the evidence points to the former. What do you think?

these are my thoughts. hope they help.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Following is a list of extra biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2, mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3. , mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9., mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions “christus” who is Jesus - Annals 15.44

Ref. from classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

Thallus Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun.

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, “And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.”

The oddity is that Jesus’ crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus’ mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus’ crucifixion. It may not have been.

Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante–Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

The Talmud

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!”

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11–13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.

No Historical Sources? Be Serious!!!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Mark, that book is nothing more than the copycat thesis which no serious historian takes seriously.

Confronting the Copycat Thesis
In spite of having been pronounced dead even by intelligent skeptics, the thesis that Judaism and Christianity consist merely of stolen pagan myths and ideas continues to be promulgated by the uncritical and accepted by the gullible. Acharya S and her Christ Conspiracy are simply the latest recycling of the general thesis, but now, even Robert Price has promulgated aspects of it in his Deconstructing Jesus.

faithcommons.org/node/205

Confronting the Copycat Thesis
A Multi-Essay Examination
J. P. Holding
tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

A Critical Look at Tom Harpur’s “The Pagan Christ”
James Patrick Holding

Our friends in Canada had now and then asked me about a journalist up their way named Tom Harpur, who writes all manner of squishy New Agish columns for the Toronto Star. Harpur’s work doesn’t get down here to the States easily; in fact his book of interest here, The Pagan Christ [Thomas Allen, 2004] I could not find in local bookstores and it could not be had via Amazon’s American site until more recently (I ordered it via the Canadian one). Perhaps that may have had something to do with laws against importing foreign toxic waste. If that seems hard, it’s not. Harpur’s book is merely a regurgitation of the absolute worst in “pagan copycat” theories, and serves as an example of material you’ll be able to avoid once you use the hints I give on using sources critically. Start with the bibliography, and it reads like a Rogue’s Gallery of Scholastic Incompetence: Freke and Gandy, Acharya S, Tim Leedom, T. W. Doane, Earl Doherty, Helen Ellerbe, Kersey Graves, John Shelby Spong, Godfrey Higgins, Gerald Massey, Alvin Boyd Kuhn. These last three (in reverse order) are Harpur’s most favored sources; throughout Harpur expresses bewilderment that these three “scholars” (the word he applies liberally to just about anyone, regardless of credentials), especially Kuhn, have been so vastly ignored. The very idea that they have been ignored because of their incompetence and inability somehow never manages to cross Harpur’s uncritical mind.

…

tektonics.org/harpur01.html

 

[Brian_Ingram]

FightingFat:

Hi everyone, I’ve been approached by someone who has read this book by an ex-Anglican Priest.
The book is based around the ‘truth’ of Christianity that there was never a historical Jesus, and that the Bible is wholely an allagorical reference based on Pagan and Egyptian myths and legend to guide people through their lives.

Mark.

Tacitus was a Roman historian who wrote ‘Annals’ in 115 CE. He talks about the Emperor Nero’s persecution of Christians in Rome in 64 CE

Tacitus wrote:

“To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following.”
Annals 15 : 44.

Pliny the younger was a Roman Governor in Bithynia (Turkey). He was executing Christians, but there were a lot of them! In 112 CE he wrote to the Emperor Trajan asking what he should do.

“They were in the habit of meeting before dawn on a fixed day. They would recite in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a God, and would bind themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any criminal act, but rather that they would not commit any fraud, theft or adultery, nor betray any trust nor refuse to restore a deposit on demand. This done, they would disperse, and then they would meet again later to eat together (but the food was quite ordinary and harmless).”

Pax

Brian

 

[demetrios1973]

Anonymous_1:

Greek mythology has no claim to truth. . Christianity does. It is not considered to be mythological but historical.

There are many who believe Christianity is mythological, and certainly the New Testament containS elements of mythology woven in with the alleged “current events” it described.

Anonymous_1:

However I suggest that few would be willing to die for a man who they know never existed. The people we speak of Ss. Peter, Paul, Stephen, Polycarp, John, are supposed to have interacted with the Person Christ. To suggest that they would be willing to face severe persecution and willingly endure terrible deaths for this person whom is make believe is obsurd.

Paul never met Jesus except in a vision. As far as dying for a person they believe is make believe? How many people died for the glory of Zeus, of Amun, of Yahweh? I’m sure none of those people had met Zeus, Amun or Yahweh…except maybe in visions.

 

[Anonymous_1]

demetrios1973:

There are many who believe Christianity is mythological, and certainly the New Testament containS elements of mythology woven in with the alleged “current events” it described.

I agree that it is very tempting to shrug off the elements of the Gospels or the Bible that do not agree with our naturalistic worldview as “mythology.” And I understand why this is so tempting. People don’t normally walk on water, or cast out demons, nor do they raise from the dead, etc.(But go figure, if God the Creator of water became man would it really be that hard for Him to walk on it? I suppose not.)But make no mistake about it, these supernatural events are presented as having really happened in space and time. They are presented as historical events, the greatest ones to have ever happened thus far, but real events never the less. These people claimed to have witnessed these things.

On the other hand, Greek mythology is presented as just that, mythology, not as extraordinary historical fact.

Paul never met Jesus except in a vision. As far as dying for a person they believe is make believe? How many people died for the glory of Zeus, of Amun, of Yahweh? I’m sure none of those people had met Zeus, Amun or Yahweh…except maybe in visions.

I suppose that Paul being a Pharisee knew people who knew Jesus. He certainly heard of Him and knew Him to be a real person. I imagine and think it likley good ole Saul might even have been in the crowds on any one of those occasions where the masses went out to see him. Any way this si besides the point.

I do not deny that people have died in the name of Zeus and Amun and Yahweh. I will illustrate the point i am making. Imagine you are St Peter. You are going around preaching about a guy named Jesus from the nown Nazareth whom you believe to be the Messiah the Ancient Scriptures Prophesied about. You tell them he was crucified, died and was buried. But something amazing happened! He was raised from the dead and you saw him! Most of the peopel laugh at you. Some of the people seeing the conviction and passion in your eyes think twice but ultimatley disregard you. And they had every reason to sneer at you because you had fabricated the whole thing. But you started a huge mess. Already lots of people were believing in this Jesus even though believing in him was a capital crime and hugley unpopular. Converts were disowned and kciked out of the synagogues for blasphamy. Then one day Emperor Neros henchmen catch you and order you to be crucified unless of course you renounce your faith but instead for dramatic effect you ask to be crucified in a more greusome and tortuous manner, upside down. Oh and you did this for a man whom was really just a fabrication of your imagination.

See how silly this proposal is? Furthermore, these Saints have helped lay down the framework that revolutionized the moral fiber of society of the time and ever since. Is a guy who is so considered in matters of morality and conscience likley to have fabricated a diabloical myth responsible for the disillusionment of Billions?

So I reaffirm my previous suggestion that this is a very good argument and that Christianity is unique.

 

[demetrios1973]

Many Greeks believed in the existence of their gods. In fact, the Apostles Paul and Barnabas were mistaken by citizens of Lystra as Zeus and Hermes. (See Acts 14:11-13)

Devotees of Dionysus ate him sacramentally. Dionysus was said to have ascended to heaven, and was seated at the right hand of Zeus. Once Dionysus reached “Olympian” status, it became legend that his mother was assumed into heaven along with him.

There are many legends and myths similar to Dionysus. It would be utterly ridiculous not to recognize that some of the events spoken of in the New Testament were “adopted” from mythology.

Perhaps this technique was used to make it easier for pagans to accept the gospel? After all, wasn’t it Paul who said that he was “all things to all men?” What better way to show a pagan that Jesus was the Son of God than to compare him to a Son of Zeus?

Demetrios

 

[demetrios1973]

Anonymous_1:

Oh and you did this for a man whom was really just a fabrication of your imagination.

Perhaps you have me mixed up with somebody else? I never proposed that Jesus did not exist, but only that Paul never met Him except in a vision.

God Bless,

Demetrios